[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Auria

Don't know if it's true, but I heard that 2ch made up the "Mammon x Ange" thingy and Ryuukishi took it in his game with choosing Mammon as personal stake.

damn, it won't be good if Ryukishi always succumbs to fan demands. (hopefully he still has a backbone to refuse when needed)

[stray]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I was thinking about that at one point, but it doesn't work.

Unless you want to say that Asumu had two Battlers, one by c-section.

Hmm... didn't realize that was in red. Still, though, it reeks of some kind of technicality, not just as far as being Rudolph's son and Kinzo's grandson, but the fact his maternal grandparents took him in.

I vote homunculus baby clone.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by stray

Hmm... didn't realize that was in red. Still, though, it reeks of some kind of technicality, not just as far as being Rudolph's son and Kinzo's grandson, but the fact his maternal grandparents took him in.

I vote homunculus baby clone.

lol imagine.

Rudolf is probably his father though, because without that there would be no technical way for him to be related to Kinzo. Asumu can be sidestepped because she isn't related to Kinzo via blood.

[Jan-Poo]

He could still be the son of one of the other siblings, or, even more crazy, he could be the son of the Beatrice that died in 1967 who happens to be Kinzo's secret daughter.

This assuming that "family ties" count regardless of genetic. If not then Battler must either be Rudolf's or Kyrie's son. Assuming those are Ange's parents.

[k//eternal]

To say Battler is a clone, we're talking human cloning in 1968. People hadn't even cloned a mouse until 1986. Kinzo might be rich, but even if he wanted to do that for some reason, it's kind of hard to buy technology that certainly didn't exist.

I guess you could go with "Ryu07 comes up with crazy things", but it'd be a disappointment in this case.

[Ithekro]

The twin option is always open.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

He could still be the son of one of the other siblings, or, even more crazy, he could be the son of the Beatrice that died in 1967 who happens to be Kinzo's secret daughter.

Battler would have been born in July 1968 to be 18 in October of 1986... there's no way he could be that Beatrice's son if she died in 1967. And as far as being the son of the other siblings, if there was a question as to his birth why would Asumu's family acknowledge him or take him in?

This assuming that "family ties" count regardless of genetic. If not then Battler must either be Rudolf's or Kyrie's son. Assuming those are Ange's parents.

Same problem... if he was Kyrie's son... well first off Kyrie had a miscarriage at the same time, unless she was carrying twins a miscarriage is a miscarriage. Asumu's successful pregnancy was what forced Rudolf to choose Asumu, according to Kyrie's backstory. Theoretically there could have been a 3rd woman... but that seems like a stretch... if so why didn't Rudolf go for door #3, or Kyrie. Asumu and Kyrie seem to have known about each other, so that would imply that Asumu for some reason willingly accepted a child that wasn't hers as her own, and more importantly her parents welcomed Rudolf's child into their home after Asumu's death. Just doesn't add up.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The twin option is always open.

I like the stillborn twin idea...

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The twin option is always open.

One twin was born normally and the other by c-section? Does that happen? (Serious question, not sarcasm.)

I suppose it's even weirder if they're both called Battler. Maybe the real Battler died but they made a mistake and assumed the one who survived was Battler? But the situation sounds too much like Higurashi's twins, the death aside.

[Antera Caramichael]

Well, Kyrie also might have think that her baby was born dead but actually wasn't (Asumu stole it and pretend it to be hers to mary Rudolf)

[Ithekro]

One twin was born normally and the other by c-section? Does that happen? (Serious question, not sarcasm.)

Yes it does happen. One baby is positioned correctly, while the other is not. Or One is born and the other does not come out for a long period of time, requiring a c-section. This is not beyond realism.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

Well, Kyrie also might have think that her baby was born dead but actually wasn't (Asumu stole it and pretend it to be hers to mary Rudolf)

As has been said countless times, miscarriage != stillbirth. Very, very different.

[Marion]

ffff hide Klashikari is gonna slaughter you XD

I don't like the Macbeth theory. It's silly wording. The witches in the play also say "Fear Macduff" so it's obvious that Macduff should be FEARED according to the theme of the play :U

Then again, like the family says "Well he IS Kinzo" when Kinzo does weird stuff, the fan base probably thinks "Well he IS Ryukishi" and wouldn't put something far fetched out of his reach

[Endomae]

First, sorry for my bad english.

Spoiler for Kanon´s death, EP1 - Possible explanation:

Replaying the game and thinking a bit, I´ve realiced that there's a possible explanation for his death.

This is only based on circunstancial evidence and small thingies on Beato´s red truth, so don´t take it seriously, really.

Ok, let´s get to the point.

Kanon didn´t die on the boiler room.

Come, try to remenber. Where did Kanon die?

Ok, I don´t remenber where, but you get the point. When Battler & company arrived at the crime scene, Kanon was still alive. He died afterwards on the servant´s room. Or was it the parlor? Whatever. Nanjo took him somewhere and, with the rest of the survivors, tried uselessly to save him.

Let me quote exactly what Beato said:
Kanon was killed on the boiler room, correct?All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the death as well!In short, no kind of human or death person on the island could have killed Kanon!

From here, I´ve made up three teories.

1-With this, Beatrice referred to the exact moment when Kanon died. If this is right, then there's no contradiction at all. The culprit could have easily attacked Kanon, then he would have fleed away. He was doing thing X when his injuries ended with Kanon's life.

2-This one is pretty weird. With that, Beatrice did refer to the moment when Kanon was in the boiler room. But Kanon wasn't injured at all. For reason X, he pretended to be injured and was killed later on the servant's room/the parlor.

3-And this last one is just stupid. As you have seen, Beatrice didn't state the exact moment when this red truth in particular could be aplicable. She may be referring to any moment in particular.

Spoiler for Episode 3 - Linked closed rooms:

This mistery in particular has always fascinated me, who knows why.

First, note that the siblings seem to know very much about the servant's room keys. This opens some posibilities. But, whatever.

The boiler room has two doors, am I wrong?

One of then leads to the inside of the mansion, the other one leads to the courtyard.

Can we be 100% sure that the two locks are the same?

If they aren't, it´s all pretty easy for the criminal, isn't it. He could have go out of the boiler room using the 2nd key, making this linked closed room murder a relatively easy task.

Well, just some wild-guessing. But everything that isn't in red is just wild-guessing, isn't it?

[Ithekro]

However, if Battler is from Azumu and Kinzo's grandson, he should have been born (or c-section, whatever) from her. However is he confirmed as Rudolf's child? (though if he isn't the options are very limited as to who the father is...if Azumu isn't Kinzo's child)

And then there is Ange. She's confirmed as Kyrie's child, right? Rather than being Azumu's child again (Ange is six years old...Battler's sin is six years old...but then Azumu should have died seven years ago.) When is Ange's birthday?

1998 Ange is 18...but her Beatrice form is in 1986 Meta...still 18 which is Battler's age. While all things seem to point to Bern having fun, could there be something else? The other child? Battler's "real" form? Something else? (likely gone over or disproved many times already). Or even Battler projecting Ange onto someone else?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

However, if Battler is from Azumu and Kinzo's grandson, he should have been born (or c-section, whatever) from her. However is he confirmed as Rudolf's child? (though if he isn't the options are very limited as to who the father is...if Azumu isn't Kinzo's child)

And then there is Ange. She's confirmed as Kyrie's child, right? Rather than being Azumu's child again (Ange is six years old...Battler's sin is six years old...but then Azumu should have died seven years ago.) When is Ange's birthday?

1998 Ange is 18...but her Beatrice form is in 1986 Meta...still 18 which is Battler's age. While all things seem to point to Bern having fun, could there be something else? The other child? Battler's "real" form? Something else? (likely gone over or disproved many times already). Or even Battler projecting Ange onto someone else?

In the game when Ange asks Beato to state that Battler isn't Kinzo's grandson she doesn't. And considering how the family have said how Battler looks like Rudolf in his youth I'm pretty sure Rudolf is the father.

We don't know Ange's birthday, but she's 6 when the family goes to Rokkenjima. It's mentioned by Battler that she was born a little while before Asumu died I believe. I don't think we should doubt this though - the red hair can easily come from Rudolf's genetics, since Battler has red hair too. Meanwhile - we have no idea what Asumu even looks like (she might be red head though, if Battler would think that she's his mother and all)

[stray]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I suppose it's even weirder if they're both called Battler. Maybe the real Battler died but they made a mistake and assumed the one who survived was Battler? But the situation sounds too much like Higurashi's twins, the death aside.

Ultrasound wasn't quite as prevalent in 1968 as it is now... although in that era c-sections were actually more common than they are now, afaik. I'm not a medical expert, either way. They may not have known they had twins or even a boy, but decided to name him Battler if he was a boy. Out pops a boy, they call him Battler... he dies due to complications, then Battler 2 is c-sectioned out, and thus gets the name Battler.

Originally Posted by Marion

I don't like the Macbeth theory. It's silly wording. The witches in the play also say "Fear Macduff" so it's obvious that Macduff should be FEARED according to the theme of the play :U

Eh... silly wording is the point. That's the one thing that's really been called in to question, that Battler was "born from" Asumu.

Either way, what intrigues me more is that Beato didn't screw around at all about the fact. Battler couldn't answer as far as what happened 6 years ago, and she pulled a trump card, ice cold assasin style. 2 shots to the heart and one to the head.

[rogerpepitone]

Re the Macbeth hypothesis:
Ange: Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. (右代宮戦人は右代宮明日夢の息子ではないわ。)

Endomae: The other door to the boiler room doesn't lock.

[rstrafford]

Is it possible that Kyrie was told she had a miscarriage? What if someone bribed the doctor to tell her she's two months along when she's really four? I heard somewhere that some women don't start showing until a little longer into the pregnancy.

[Ithekro]

Is it possible that Kyrie was told she had a miscarriage? What if someone bribed the doctor to tell her she's two months along when she's really four? I heard somewhere that some women don't start showing until a little longer into the pregnancy.

Just how is that supppose to work?

[yangxu]

Originally Posted by Renall

This simply doesn't make sense. The same chemicals shouldn't induce identical delusions. You could say the only totally accurate account in ep4 was the one Kyrie gave, and so Battler assumed everyone else suffered identical delusions, but if two characters in any given game had compared their delusions they shouldn't be identical.

It might make sense if the delusions were, say, from Maria's POV. But Maria wasn't with anyone else in ep4, and she certainly didn't witness the killings. Why would Kyrie imagine magic bunnygirls? Why would everyone imagine Kinzo doing the same things, or Gaap? Drugging people just doesn't work that way.

I don't recall anyone in Ep. 4 said anything explicitly about everyone witnessing the same thing (eg. bunnies, or Gaap, for that matter). While the illusions may not be identical, the common denominator here is that an illusional figure (same or not), following drug intake, could be perceived by everyone as the culprit for the massacre. In their eyes, it was Kinzo who ordered his subordinates to execute the killing, but none of them was able to directly point out exactly which subordinate did what, the generic comment was Kinzo initiated the massacre.