2012-08-26, 17:40 | Link #30181 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Yes thats why I've always seen it as a hint just to show that he did inherit some of Kyrie or he just got white hair naturally. Speaking of hair colors where the hell did Battler and Ange get the Red hair from. I mean it seems to be a trait among the Sumaderas that their hair turns white prematurely since both sisters have white hair but it doesn't really make sense since Rudolf has brown hair and Kinzo has white hair also probably from premature aging. So I'm guessing maybe Kyrie use to have red hair before it turned.
I know it doesn't make sense to dispute Character genetics but still.
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2012-08-26, 18:14 | Link #30182 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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And Kyrie is likely given pale azure hair because often they are used for cold, rational characters (contrasting with red hair that are for passionate characters) subconsciously making more believable for the viewer (used to colour code) how she could plan on murdering people (Asumu or the Ep 7 Teaparty). It's the hair colour. It's the colour of the culprit. |
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2012-08-26, 18:22 | Link #30183 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Not really. Hair color makes a lot more sense then it did in Higurashi since all the hair colors in Umineko are possibly hair colors unlike Higurashi with their characters who had bright green, blue, and purple hair. Like non of the human characters have unnatural hair they all have possible hair colors.
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2012-08-26, 18:36 | Link #30184 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Kinzo is white, his wife is unknown. We've Rudolf who's dark brown, Rosa's clear brown, Eva's orance/red, Krauss' is defined old gold. Then we've Battler and Ange who're red, George who's a blue/black and Jessica who's blonde. Basically the Ushiromiya gene pool contains all the shadow of colours hair can have minus a definite black colour. I guess that's why Hideyoshi was adopted into family. His hair colour was missing... (just jocking...) Plus Erika has blue hair and Ikuko purple and they're human. Though yes, this time Ryukishi avoided using green hair for humans. |
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2012-08-26, 18:47 | Link #30185 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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In "reality" in Umineko, the characters probably all have dark hair regardless of how their images are shown in the VNs, except maybe for Bice and Moetrice. But it is more convenient to have some variation. And it does mean that we can try out things like colour theory on them.
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2012-08-26, 19:25 | Link #30186 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Oh I'm just talking about it from just the standpoint of Umineko in general. I know in the real world they would probably have black hair because they are asian but I'm thinking of it from a standpoint of their world.
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2012-08-26, 19:33 | Link #30187 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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Everyone is colored for Battler's convenience. He's incompetent, remember? So he sees people by their hair colors just as Maria sees them by their attitudes. And he differences man from female based on their chests.
My pet theory is that the variation in the Ushiromiya color hair symbolizes a great scale double-cheating from Kinzo's late wife. So, nobody can assure that all those kids are really his. He couldn't even remember when he had them! (One day he woke up with kids and a powerful drinking habit, or something like that). Because the first wife was jealous of Kinzo having a mistress in the island (That'd be like having your neighbor as mistress, hell), she had a shitload of affairs. And then the siblings were born. Well, not all: Rudolf is the only one born from Kinzo. That's why he and Battler are both dirty perverts. That's why all the siblings except Rudolf have some sob memory of Kinzo disdaining them. That'd explain oh-so-beautifuly Rudolf's messed up sex life. And Kinzo's grandson Battler even has all that incesty lusty vibes -Jessica and 'Beato'-. Not only that, he's the only cousin who resembles the grandfather in some way! Everyone else is just a failed attempt from the first wife (whose name nobody knows) to secure his husband via baby a la Kyrie. That would help me to get over the weirdness of all that 'dating/lusting after their uncle' thing that the cousins have. They wouldn't even be related. But that's just a troll theory, so don't kick me, okay? Going serious, yes. All those years went straight to Battlers folicles and whited his head. It's like Ange's dying of cancer several decades later, so her big bro probably is ancient too... EDIT: In some weird way, every cousin resembles his/her parents. Jessica has her mother's hair but lighter, George is chubby and somewhat-black-haired, Maria's dad is unknown, so she doesn't resemble anyone for convenience... Battler is the special cause, with all the Kyrie situation and the mistery of his real mother, but he and Ange are somewhat related through hair. Maybe red is the new white? Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-26 at 19:43. |
2012-08-26, 22:31 | Link #30189 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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"How? They weren't present, Natsuhi told it only to Krauss and it's unlikely Krauss told to someone else.
Also Battler after all showed up on Rokkenjima and Natsuhi had all the time to compare voices. Either the voice was masked so it didn't matter if it was Battler or Rudolf or Hideyoshi or she could have recognized him as soon as he showed up and spoke to her for a while. Though his dubber is used in the game, it's likely a red herring. " Rosa was living with them at tham time, narration said he was away, but Surly the servants knew, Eva or Rosa might have heard somewhere from them.
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2012-08-27, 04:50 | Link #30191 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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In any case, it can be explained with a mixture of coincidence and memory implantation. Quote:
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Of course you could debate as to how likely evil-brainwasher-version-Ikuko would be to permit Touya and Ange to meet, but "Touya is just an actor hired by Ikuko" doesn't even make for such a debate; it's dead on arrival. Quote:
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As I see it, what you are saying about Beatrice II doesn't contrast with Touya's situation at all, but rather mimics it. Touya couldn't be Battler, either. Right? Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-08-27 at 05:30. |
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2012-08-27, 06:49 | Link #30192 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Would have been so difficult to just tell that Ange refused to meet it? Especially considering that for several decades Ange has been completely elusive? But you still haven't said what would be the reason for Ikuko to brainwash Tohya to begin with. If it's something that it is merely postulated, you can't really say that "Y is wrong because she has no reason to do X". One can always postulate a reason X as you have postulated yours. Ah and brainwashing is evil by definition. there's no good version of your Yasu-Ikuko.
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2012-08-27, 07:56 | Link #30193 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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No, what I'm saying is that Beatrice II is a precedent. It's like "okay, this might work, but in this place doesn't work that way". A recurrent topic, to say it someway. Now I'll make a case of the power of a precedent: Like how anbody can stop dead Dlanor's Knox Rules in EP5 the moment she utters them with a well placed 'Knox might not even apply in this story/situation/twilight' or even 'You're stating what Knox #X says, but not about what this case is about' and to nail it further 'You're not the game master and the existence/possibility of X can't be DENIED in red just because you won't allow it.'. All casually forget those blue stakes, because is implicit that they might work, but for the sake of plot nobody thinks of them. This is a precedent (in-story, fandom has used them more than enough times). If Knox was denied by that plothole, it would be pretty lame and then we wouldn't have the awesome red spam of DEATH. Take another pick 'Someone pretending to be another for kicks makes a new person, even if that's not human'. That's a precedent. Hell, thats even a red RULE, how Kanon's been trolling us, how Ange was able to survive 1998 even if she was declared dead, and how ShannonxGeorge became worse when all that sappyness wasn't enough. Science would call that statement bullcrap: could be forgiven if it was a case of MPD, but is just some guy with serious denial issues! How's that gonna make a personality? Those two situations are examples of the power of a precedent in-story. Invalidating a theory without outright shutting it in red. The blue stakes are invalid in the games through the power of denial, and calling nonsense that idiocy of "death of a character that isn't even a personality" is a forbidden move too, stated even with red. So, to make a long story shorter, Beatrice II and EP7 line are a prcedent to say 'Nobody can even pretend to be other human - exceptions made of furniture, and they are limited to the human that created them'. With this rule, nobody can disguise themselves of other suspects, but Yasu can disguise as Beatrice. Others can't disguise themselves as Beatrice, because Beato is furniture and limited to hir creator. Tohya wasn't Battler anymore, and he even aknowledged that he couldn't be him (more along the lines that "It terrified me, because I felt that it wasn't correct"), but at the end he was able to remember Mr. Batora, a human that became furniture when he killed himself to follow Beato, thus recognizing that "Tohya's body was a vessel of Battler long ago." Then he accepted Battle in that last scene and efectively 'resurrected' him (Aknowledging furniture). Maybe Tohya will never be Battler again, but he was Battler some time before. So Thoya = Battler is not a mimic, but acttualy an inversion of BeatriceII=/=Castiglioni. While BetyII couldn't be Castiglioni no matter how hard she tried to make Kinzo happy, Tohya couldn't stop being part Battler even if he tried to supress it; he didn't had his memories at the begining, the amnesia was temporal (for the plot's convenience) and when they returned, things got ugly because 18 dissosiated himself from Bato so hard he gave himself an attack. Ikuko was not an evil brainwasher. She tried to make an amnesiac remember, and when that worked horribly well, she let Tohya be Tohya. Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-27 at 08:30. Reason: Damn it! My english SUCKS so bad it should be considered a logic error >_<U |
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2012-08-27, 09:06 | Link #30194 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I don't see random=Touya's coincidental traits as any less plausible than Battler=Touya being found by a random, wealthy, hermit mystery writer with a vague past who likes to write anonymously, has an inclination to take random amnesiacs she picks off the street into her family (without contacting any authorities), and happens to have a name to match the age of Yasu. Quote:
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You're making an assumption here that Ikuko would automatically see Touya meeting Ange entirely as a threat to her "work" done on Touya and nothing else. It's important to remember that evil-version-Ikuko has thus far failed to make Touya into Battler. After all these decades she's only managed a half-success, so at this point she's probably either given up, gotten sick of the rut, or is in some other way dissatisfied with the status quo. Maybe she just doesn't care enough any more to keep trying to keep a tight lid on Touya, or maybe Touya meeting Yukari could even be seen as an opportunity. Is Ikuko even taking that big a gamble in meeting Yukari? Consider that even if Yukari says Touya isn't Battler, or Touya's memories don't quite meet with Yukari's (whose own memories of her brother are from when she was 6 and younger), would it even change anything between Touya and Ikuko? Probably not. And what if Ikuko "wins" the gamble and Touya and Yukari hit it off as long lost siblings? Wouldn't that make Touya more "Battler" than before? Or what if maybe she does see Ange as a threat, but doesn't care because she's been conflicted about the whole affair for a long time and has finally decided to "let fate decide". Or what if she actually wants to support Touya meeting Yukari simply because she genuinely wants to support "Battler"? Remember, it's all predicated on her own "magic" delusion of Touya actually being Battler as well. Very interesting stuff. I may comment later, when I have more time. |
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2012-08-27, 10:02 | Link #30195 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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A reminder on the hair color: The Kinzo flashback in ep7 shows him with white hair in his 30s. Granted, this is all speculative since we don't know if the hair colors are merely aesthetic or not, but if Kinzo's hair went white early, Kyrie has white hair, and Battler is said to resemble Kinzo very closely, it's entirely possible that Battler's hair would've gone white in his 30s too, if not earlier.
A better question would be how his hairstyle changed, but that's such an incredibly minor matter that can be fixed with scissors.
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2012-08-27, 10:11 | Link #30196 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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Maybe Kinzo aged prematurely in face of his crappy meaningless life. Maybe Ryuukishi was lazy AGAIN and just picked up a Young!Kinzo sprite, put it a suit on and called it a day. I know I would've done it if it was just for three miserable lines at the end of an extra.
Random idea ALERT So, speaking about white hair, you think Amakusa is/was part of the Sumaderas? Sumadera was an important part of the Ushiromiya company so an ex-hitman of theirs working as Ange's bodyguard in the good days (read, when they werent fighting for the company) is not that farfetched. And Juuza Amakusa sounds so much to 'Yakuzamakusa' that is just ridiculous. Anagram, anyone? Then we have white hair, which has been used in old soldiers and Sumadera-related family. Oh, and Claire, but she hardly counts as more than a book. I know is random, but what can I say... EDIT: I watched that 'Battler solves a logic error'. And I cracked. The duct tape is almighty! Now I understand Erika's happiness at having some LOL |
2012-08-27, 10:18 | Link #30197 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Also Battler's life was at least as physically and mentally debilitating as Kinzo's, maybe moreso, if he truly is Tohya. Dude's been through a lot. Stress-induced hair pigmentation loss with a genetic predisposition to it is possible, I guess. I'm just kinda sad older-Tohya doesn't use Kinzo's sprite as a base instead of Battler's. Now that would be interesting.
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2012-08-27, 10:37 | Link #30198 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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But yeah, stress and bad luck with genes will do that to a person's hair. |
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2012-08-27, 10:38 | Link #30199 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In the end on this point she is a lot more similar to Ange than to Yasu. hermit - Yasu doesn't qualify as an hermit anymore than Jessica did. And it wasn't by her choice anyway, unlike Ikuko. write anonymously - nowhere it is said that she wrote her books anonymously before meeting Battler. And even after that she wrote many books with her pen name. It's as if you said that Van Dine wrote books anonymously. picks amnesiacs from the streets - where's the relation? vague past - her family situation was described, even if vague. It doesn't match with Yasu's. You can't say that "her past might be a lie" and then claim that the postulated lack of info on her background thereof is a coincidence. At any rate it seems to me your arguments are similar to those who try to argue that work A is a rip off of work B pointing all the similarities, and omitting to mention all the differences. There are a lot of things that do not match between what we know about Ikuko and what we know about Yasu, and you need to call them lies to make your theory work. But between Tohya and Battler, their stories are completely compatible. Quote:
What makes it better than a "Ikuko wanted Ange to believe that her brother is still alive"? Quote:
But I think there is a very big problem in your whole theory. Why would Ikuko call him Tohya rather than Battler? Kinzo called Beatrice's daughter like her mother, I think that's really the least you would expect from someone who wants to think a person as another one. It's as if she helped him in creating a different personality for himself. Additionally. If she found an amnesiac to mold as she pleases, wouldn't it have been a lot easier and more effective to tell him that he was Battler right off the bat? The flashbacks imply that several years passed since he actually started to remember, and that's the whole problem I think. If he never had the time to create a new identity for himself, he wouldn't have felt like his mind was splitting in two.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-08-27 at 10:48. |
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2012-08-27, 11:24 | Link #30200 | |||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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It's just as you say, people only use any vague similarities they might have, some of which are only things we can infer or even cook up by stretching certain bits. I could accept it if there was any substancial hint within the narrative, but it just seems like a pointless theory in the first place. Quote:
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-08-27 at 11:42. |
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