Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Divini]

Well, I didn't expect the first shocking death in this series would be an innocent little girl-type Hideauze.

Well done...

[HandofFate]

lol, for some reason, I'm not that all surprised.

Standard "They're humans!!!!" twist.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

I thought the evolvers are the ones who turned into Hideauze?

Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.


Man I can't say I was totally surprised because in the speculation thread we had already found two interesting evidences that the whalesquids could be humans, but I didn't expect that the Hideauze in space were intelligent creatures with a complex society.

I must agree that I find it hard to believe that anyone would be fine becoming such a "hideous" creature. Is there a point in having tentacles in space? They couldn't engineer a way to have a less repugnant shape?


That apart I loved how almost every speculation about the secret base turned out to be correct. The space elevator was actually a space elevator and the mass driver was actually a mass driver


The only true surprise here, for me at least, is the fact that it went absolutely smoothly for Ledo and Pinion. It appears that these Hideauze are extremely less dangerous than the spacefaring counterparts, both from fighting capabilities and from intelligence (since supposedly they aren't actually merged with humans).

The Hideauze that Chamber squished, however, seemed different, with more distinguishable features. The strange fact is that it looked identical to "Elaine Matsumoto" which is supposed to be a human mixed with a symbiont. So what was that? Could it be that it was that Elaine Matsumoto since it is implied that the evolvers can live a lot longer than humans?


The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.

But if one thought that peace was impossible due to an impossibility to communicate, now you are faced with the fact that both factions are quite capable of that, and this is not much different from any other bloodied war.
The universe is huge guys, as much as I don't find appealing the idea to sit next a squidly creature I don't think it'd be such a bother to let them live a few light years away.


Now on earth the situation is clearly different. The whalesquid are most likely mindless creatures and the reason they have their nest in that facility is simply because they were born there. Whatever theory Ledo had about the Hideauze and their reason to attack humans it doesn't work for these creatures. They probably won't give a damn about humans developing new technologies.

On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

[apotheosis]

@Dop
There's only 3 eps left, so it seems like using the wormhole generator to pull the GA (and space Hideaze) into the conflict would take too much time now?

I could see a fight to prevent use of the wormhole generator, except ... who can opppose Ledo/Chamber? Maybe there are some neo Hideaze in orbit or something *shrug*

The Ledo vs Chamber seems like the most interesting conflict left in the series anyway. I'd rather the last ~3 eps get into that & resolve the fleet breakup plot, instead of introducing something completely new.

[Mangaka-chan]

Originally Posted by apotheosis

I agree, but the different breeds of dogs are not 100% geneticaly identical. Even individual dogs of the same breed are not 100% genetically identical. I guess they just meant the creatures had some sort of Hideaze genetic marker, rather than really being identical *shrugs*

We don't know what kind of test Chambers ran to determine if the whalesquid is a Hideaze. Did he do a PCR and just looked at certain SNPs or did he go a really, really fast shot gun sequencing and alignment of the whalsquid's genome that Craig Venter would be proud of? But plot-wise, I think the screen writer's purpose for having the two animals be supposedly the same species is to challenge Ledo's perception of the Hideaze. He'd been trained his whole life to kill Hideaze, thinking they're a violent, less-than-human animal. And when he comes to earth this line of thought extends to the whalesquid because he thinks they're the same species. Now in this episode all of that is blown out of the water (no pun intended) when Ledo realizes that whalesquid=Hideaze=evolved humans.

[Helius]

Originally Posted by Dop

But what about this wormhole generator? Will it still be there or did it get blown up?

If it's still there, it'd probably be a foreshadowing of a final showdown between all 3 factions at the end...

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.


Man I can't say I was totally surprised because in the speculation thread we had already found two interesting evidences that the whalesquids could be humans, but I didn't expect that the Hideauze in space were intelligent creatures with a complex society.

I must agree that I find it hard to believe that anyone would be fine becoming such a "hideous" creature. Is there a point in having tentacles in space? They couldn't engineer a way to have a less repugnant shape?


That apart I loved how almost every speculation about the secret base turned out to be correct. The space elevator was actually a space elevator and the mass driver was actually a mass driver


The only true surprise here, for me at least, is the fact that it went absolutely smoothly for Ledo and Pinion. It appears that these Hideauze are extremely less dangerous than the spacefaring counterparts, both from fighting capabilities and from intelligence (since supposedly they aren't actually merged with humans).

The Hideauze that Chamber squished, however, seemed different, with more distinguishable features. The strange fact is that it looked identical to "Elaine Matsumoto" which is supposed to be a human mixed with a symbiont. So what was that? Could it be that it was that Elaine Matsumoto since it is implied that the evolvers can live a lot longer than humans?


The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.

But if one thought that peace was impossible due to an impossibility to communicate, now you are faced with the fact that both factions are quite capable of that, and this is not much different from any other bloodied war.
The universe is huge guys, as much as I don't find appealing the idea to sit next a squidly creature I don't think it'd be such a bother to let them live a few light years away.


Now on earth the situation is clearly different. The whalesquid are most likely mindless creatures and the reason they have their nest in that facility is simply because they were born there. Whatever theory Ledo had about the Hideauze and their reason to attack humans it doesn't work for these creatures. They probably won't give a damn about humans developing new technologies.

On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

Actually, it seems like they are partially human: remember the whalesquid embryos and the squidling?

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.
The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.

I think this is the question that the series was made to explore & to get young people to consider as they go out into society (and then change society).

I expect that the question won't be answered (and neither will the fate of those two factions), except that they'll imply Gargantia's society is much better & Ledo will restore it to some sort of equilibrium.

I am kind of apprehensive that Ledo will force Chamber to deactivate in the depths of some ocean trench .. I hope it won't be that stark of a "techonology == evil" kind of way to restore equilibrium to Gargantia.

[Revan21]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

That's what I would do as well

[Marina2]

So, eh, Chamber confirmed as the final boss?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

Actually, it seems like they are partially human: remember the whalesquid embryos and the squidling?

What does "partially human" mean exactly? Chimps' DNA is 99% identical to that of a human, they still are not human.

Are these things closer to humans than chimps? They sure don't look so.


I'd rather focus on whether they are sentient or not. the Hideauze on space seem to be sentient creatures and therefore deserve to be treated like you'd treat another human, even if they are not.

Regarding the whalesquid I'm more inclined to agree with Aohige that those are just the symbiont that were created and that their vaguely human morphology comes from the fact that they were design to merge with humans. They probably have a lot of human DNA still.

I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

[Kirarakim]

Now this is what I expected from Gargantia.

Finally a genuinely great episode. It's been awhile.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What does "partially human" mean exactly? Chimps' DNA is 99% identical to that of a human, they still are not human.

Are these things closer to humans than chimps? They sure don't look so.


I'd rather focus on whether they are sentient or not. the Hideauze on space seems to be sentient creatures and therefore deserve to be treated like you'd treat another human, even if they are not.

Regarding the whalesquid I'm more inclined to agree with Aohige that those are just the symbiont that were created and that their vaguely human morphology comes from the fact that they were design to merge with humans. They probably have a lot of human DNA still.

I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

They killed Pinion's brother for entering their nest IMO. This is an instinctive behavior that makes them seem more animal than sentient.

The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by apotheosis

The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

I hope so...
That giant flower cannon`s having a human mind ? *shiver*

[Key Board]

So the reason the space war is happening is because the Hideauze followed the human colony ships and continued to fight there

reminds me of how some Irish immigrants continued their fued from their home country when they came to the United States in the 19th century

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

On some level they probably consider the lab their home, and possibly have a genetic memory of the original war in the sense that they don't like normal humans getting close to certain advanced technology sites.

There was one other point mentioned during the video, that the symbionts were powered by interactions with the nanomachines, at least when they were being developed.

And... Chamber has now used a considerable amount of its energy reserve. There is some fudge factor there in whether they mean combat-usage power or total power, but certainly enough was expended in the whalesquid melee that Chekhov's Gun is fully-loaded.

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by apotheosis

They killed Pinion's brother for entering their nest IMO. This is an instinctive behavior that makes them seem more animal than sentient.

The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping. Speculated on this earlier in the thread, there is a possibility of getting the symbiont to merge with human DNA that doesn't retain memories of a living human ... which would make them start like newborns in the wild.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping. Speculated on this earlier in the thread, there is a possibility of getting the symbiont to merge with human DNA that doesn't retain memories of a living human ... which would make them start like newborns in the wild.

There is also the fact that they probably could not survive without the suit.

They are basically chimera now; the suit has fused with the human to point where newborns are born with the suits. Heck, you can't call them suits anymore; whalesquids/Hideauze are basically a new species

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping.

Without first inviting them to get the hell out? Count me out of that, especially if they aren't bearing weapons and they aren't showing an aggressive behavior.

That kind of response is justifiable for an animal not for a sentient being. You don't kill someone just because he intruded.
At least not in civilized countries...

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

And... Chamber has now used a considerable amount of its energy reserve. There is some fudge factor there in whether they mean combat-usage power or total power, but certainly enough was expended in the whalesquid melee that Chekhov's Gun is fully-loaded.

Chamber advised in one scene for them to retreat and recharge, suggesting that it's possible to do so