Mari Okada discussion

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Second...

Spoiler for TT:

Noe x Jun.... the fuck was that shit?

Spoiler for True Tears Major Spoiler:

At least it was a series that actually told the incest theme decently and in a non-fetish way. But yeh, I didn't really approve either

Okada quality calculator:

Spoiler:

Base= 5 if anime original, 10 for adaptation
Tears Mentioned: +10 per mention
"Ero" Scene: -100 per scene
If Okada brags about it beforehand: -1000 per brag
Sparkling +50 per sparkle
Someone resembles Noe or Hiromi: 500/1+each time they say "die"
Someone resembles Aiko: +0
Crossdressing: 1.5x for the first time, -300 for each additional time.
Exception: If the entire series is about crossdressing, neither factor applies.
Love Triangle/Shape: 1% bonus for each time a fan is butthurt
Plot Twist: 1000-(100*episodes elapsed)
A bird is used: 50 (4x if chicken)
Someone goes emo: 100-(x*episodes elapsed)
X=1 unless AnoHana where x=3 or Black Rock Shooter where x=1000
A male character fails: -200 (5% chance this becomes positive)

Let me crank out some calculations.

1. AnoHana

Spoiler for Archon Calculator:

Base Score 10 for anime original
-200 for two bits of Menma Fanservice that i can remember
+0 for Bragging
+0 for Sparkling
+500 for Tsuruko ("Hiromi-type")
1.5x for Yukiatsu Crossdressing
0% bonus as no one was butthurt
1000 - 100 x 11 for episodes elapsed
Arbitrary +200 for random birds
-Over 9000 for amount of emo
-400 for Jintan and Yukiatsu failing at some point

I cbf calculating the actual number. Someone else do it for me please. But I do think it's in the negative. Wtf Archon, you messed up. You're worse than Blizzard balancing Starcraft 2.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

You're worse than Blizzard balancing Starcraft 2.

Well, time to do things the Blizzard way and nerf the emo factor! Weirdly enough, emo itself is subjective so that could lead to some serious rigging.

And also, I just realized the numbers are all going to trend negative. You mean consider the negative side to be "lulz" while the positive side is "actually good stuff" Subjective of course.

And as for the TT spoiler, I agree too.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

If you're a certain half of the fanbase, True Tears ended in disaster. In reality, there's at least two lolwut plot threads that kinda just wither and make you wonder "the fuck was the point of that?"

I liked our two leading girls equally. Did I just blow your mind? :3

Spoiler for True Tears plot pointz:

The sibling thing was the first one. The scene that made me "wut" was Noe suddenly jumping off the tree.
Noe X Jun? Uh, who was Jun again?

[Archon_Wing]

Maybe, I actually think that is the minority opinion.

Spoiler for True Tears:

Jun was Noe's brother, and it seems he was umm... too loving of her, and there's this one scene that makes it appear as if they were about to kiss.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I know what the first lolwut plot is

Spoiler for True Tears Major Plot Spoilers:

The whole Shinchiro's dad and Hiromi's mother having an affair and Shin and Hiromi being siblings ending up being a troll

but what's the second?

For me the biggest lolwut moment was when:

Spoiler for True Tears:

Noe melodramatically held up a chicken above her head in a stormy beach telling it to fly like her life depended on it...


...all because she found out her boyfriend likes another girl more than her...

On a side note, it's great to know Ano Hana was mainly Okada's work rather than Nagai.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Oi peeps! If you bash TT any further, my fanboy defences might activate .

Can we bash Black Rock Shooter or Fractal instead?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Mari Okada at the end of a series that has romance in it:

Spoiler for Lol:

[KaoruAoiShiho]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I actually sympathize with Jiromaru. Having writer's block (and also being a bit of a pervert, admittedly) is something that I can completely understand. I also think the whole concept of masculinity, being so nebulously defined and impossible to achieve, is also kind of stupid, so I don't see why that's a minus, exactly. It's not like Jiromaru ever gave up trying to achieve his goals. The guy did create a movie script in a relatively short amount of time, and that takes dedication and creativity. And the episodes you listed were some of my favorite ones. Movies, roleplayers, writers... people in the creative field. I like seeing them in any medium.

While I have a vague idea of what "trolling" might be, I'm not very fond of the word, and even several years later, have no idea how to recognize it (not that I have a desire to look for it in the first place). A bit of misdirection is part of what being a writer is about.

I fancy myself as a fairly smart person, but I can also say I enjoy some dumb stuff. But just because it's dumb on the exterior doesn't mean there can't be some flashes of brilliance beneath it. I end up watching more of the "otaku"-focused series than some of the more mainstream successes, so my profile hasn't brought me into contact with Okada that often, but from where I stand, I don't really see these complaints as complaints. A writer with a strong voice that can produce good comedy and drama - and I've overall enjoyed what I've seen.

Wow best post I've seen in this thread, can't upvote you enough. Some of the Mari bashing was starting to unnerve me.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by KaoruAoiShiho

I'm reading this thread and I'm so annoyed by your heteronormative emasculation shit.

Here's the meaning for emasculate.

"Deprive of strength and vigor, weaken".

In other words, to be made to look weak and ineffectual.

If you compare the male characters in HSI to the female characters in HSI, the male characters in it consistently come off as rather weak and ineffectual by comparison. The only real exception is Tohru.

Spoiler for HSI males:

1. Enishi constantly screws up. Constantly. Meanwhile, his sister, his mother, and his niece are all consistently effective in what they set out to do. The contrast is hammered home on a regular basis.

2. Jiromaru is a failed writer. He actually went so far as to tie up a teenage girl in bondage (against her will) to help him write porn. <Insert Picard facepalm> He would likely be a homeless man out on the street if not for the sympathies of Ohana's grandmother. When Enishi isn't the buttmonkey of the show, Jiromaru is.

3. Ko is presented as someone who couldn't get over Ohana if his life depended on it.

4. The Head Chef isn't too bad, but he's presented as someone with a real problem with cracking under pressure. He's never allowed to look cool.

5. Every unnamed teenage guy that shows interest in a female cast member is generally portrayed as a loser, or an ill-intentioned pervert, or both.

6. With the lone exception of Takako, it's only male characters that are ever made to be the butt of the jokes.

7. Yuina's fiance is presented as a narrow-minded and harsh taskmaster.

8. Beanman is Ok, but he's a very minor character.

If you were to genderbend HSI, people would be decrying it as sexist against women. So accusing it of emasculating (i.e. making weak and ineffectual) its male characters is a perfectly fair criticism.

Some of Okada's male characters are normal and/or cool people, but a helluva lot aren't.

I don't see a lot of "coolness" in those character summaries I gave above. Do you?


And yeah, your attack on Pocari Sweat was unwarranted. Pocari Sweat is a fan of Wandering Son for crying out loud.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Here's also a podcast done by a group of bloggers which also highlight problems in Okada's writing:

http://behind-the.nihonreview.com/20...ion-episode-5/

From 20:08 and onwards.

[Archon_Wing]

@Haak. I suppose emasculation isn't the right word, it's more of a subset of being insulting. I mean sure, Hana Iro would humiliate characters of both genders, but it seemed like the mean-spirited jabs were more directed disproportionally.

Might as well spoiler these

Spoiler for Hana Saku Iroha:

To be fair, Enishi does have a female counterpart: Tanako.

True, but I felt that most of the crap was still directed at Einshi. On paper, he's not a bad character. He has an inferiority complex because he feels outclassed and incapable. That's understandable.

However, because his character wasn't treated with respect, it fell apart. Takako is also stupid and compliments him, but when it all comes down to it, it's always him doing something retarded and everyone slapping him for it. It doesn't help that the show keeps trying to tell us how awesome Ohana's mom is and bringing in that contract to him just made me went "Give me a break". I simply refused to accept the glorification of the former and shitting on of the later, because I felt the show was trying too hard to make me like Satsuki and her competence.

It doesn't help, that his main episode was the Minkoface one. But I suppose Takako can sure share some of the spotlight.

Really? I didn't think so at all. He was still waiting for an answer and he got the girl in the end through perseverance. I don't think Okada emasculated or even put him down in anyway. Every time we saw Ohana interacting with Ko, it was always Ohana that was coming as worse off because the the story would always have Ohana criticising herself for being difficult with Ko.

Ko is actually okay. He just didn't do anything for most of the series, so he might have just succeeded by not being much of a character to begin with. Still, this play by Okada is not a bad one. Personally, it makes Ohana look even better with how she dealt with these issues. Did I mention I watch the show for her?

Was presented as narrow-minded. He learned his lesson and taught Yuina a lesson in the process. The workers he was harsh to were presented far more negatively.

In the case of this one, I found the entire storyline too obnoxious in how one sided this "lesson" was so I couldn't accept that either. "That inn good, everything else bad" thing and honestly the preachy bullshit with Ohana as an author avatar really sank it. But this is a failing on the entire arc's part, and not sexism.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

@Haak. I suppose emasculation isn't the right word, it's more of a subset of being insulting. I mean sure, Hana Iro would humiliate characters of both genders, but it seemed like the mean-spirited jabs were more directed disproportionally.

I'm definitely not gonna argue with that since I agree too. I'm really just disagreeing to the extent.

Spoiler for Hana Saku Iroha:

True but I felt that most of the crap was still directed at Einshi. On paper, he's not a bad character. He has an inferiority complex because he feels outclassed and incapable. That's understandable.

However, because his character wasn't treated with respect, it fell apart. Takako is also stupid and compliments him, but when it all comes down to it, it's always him doing something retarded and everyone slapping him for it. It doesn't help that the show keeps trying to tell us how awesome Ohana's mom is and bringing in that contract to him just made me went "Give me a break". I simply refused to accept the glorification of the former and shitting on of the later, because I felt the show was trying too hard to make me like Satsuki and her competence.

I think Takako got a fair amount of flak. Enishi did certainly get more but only because he was there more often, imo. And he did have his moments. They were extremely rare and generally only lasted a few seconds but he did have them...

And I don't think the show made Satsuki out to be perfect either, though she did get away rather lightly...

Ko is actually okay. He just didn't do anything for most of the series, so he might have just succeeded by not being much of a character to begin with. Still, this play by Okada is not a bad one. Personally, it makes Ohana look even better with how she dealt with these issues. Did I mention I watch the show for her?

And here I thought you watched the show for Jiroumaru. :P

In the case of this one, I found the entire storyline too obnoxious in how one sided this "lesson" was so I couldn't accept that either. "That inn good, everything else bad" thing and honestly the preachy bullshit with Ohana as an author avatar really sank it. But this is a failing on the entire arc's part, and not sexism.

That is also painfully true. If it makes you feel any better, Okada didn't script that arc. (Incidentally, nor did she script the Minkoface one)

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Haak

I think Takako got a fair amount of flak. Enishi did certainly get more but only because he was there more often, imo. And he did have his moments. They were extremely rare and generally only lasted a few seconds but he did have them...

Spoiler:

Takako served two main purposes. One was to highlight Enishi's incompetence and inability to take charge. The other was to poke fun at western-style business education, namely the theories taught in MBA programs (which aren't valued by most Japanese companies, even to this day. Managers reward seniority and aim to groom loyal, lifelong employees as soon as they graduate with a Bachelor's degree. Ambitious "mercenaries" who enter the workforce late and "think they know everything" have little place). More than anything, the joke was on western business philosophy as opposed to Takako herself.

To me, Okada's bias is evident, given how quickly Takako was vindicated once she fulfilled both purposes (even turning on Enishi toward the end, thus reinforcing his faults once more).

And I don't think the show made Satsuki out to be perfect either, though she did get away rather lightly...

Spoiler:

Satsuki got away lightly for a reason.

In many ways, I think Okada was trying to present her as an ideal woman within a modern, feminist context. She's capable, sexually liberated, free from long-term ties to any partner (whom she typically dumps on her own terms once the excitement dies down), free from the expectations and demands of family.....

At the same time, Satsuki is mindful of her family's (Ohana + Enishi/Sui) needs, intervening whenever it's necessary to set them on the right track or prevent them from crashing and burning. At the end of the day, Okada never really criticized her "flaws" - Satsuki was simply portrayed as a woman who's free as a bird (causing some of her family to misunderstand or become dissatisfied) BUT who's also responsible and capable enough to fulfill the most critical of familial obligations.

The portrayal is certainly unrealistic and grounded in fantasy. Nevertheless, that kind of life can be an appealing ideal to some women.

BTW, I've never been offended by Mari Okada's portrayal of male characters. However, I find it difficult to interpret her intent (which is to present them as being comical, ineffective, and ultimately non-threatening) in any other way.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by TJR

BTW, I've never been offended by Mari Okada's portrayal of male characters. However, I find it difficult to interpret her intent (which is to present them as being comical, ineffective, and ultimately non-threatening) in any other way.

I don't think it's a matter of people getting offended or not, but more that people are sick of her antics. Do we really need a crossdressing scene of some sort in every anime she's involved in? Maybe she's merely trying to be funny or maybe she really has some intentional malice. I don't know, we don't know.

What is known though is that is often times inappropriate or unwarranted. Oscar and Goemon in Lupin III anyone? Hanasaku Iroha episode 3? Yukiatsu's infamous moment in Anohana? Not to mention the trainwrecks that were Black Rock Shooter and Aquarion EVOL to which she was the primary script writer. I do realise that Shoji Kawamori should take half the blame for Aquarion though.

I still respect her for what she did in regards to True Tears and the adaptations of Wandering Son and Toradora, but her recent works have been absolutely shoddy with unnecessary erotica/fanservice material. And why does this matter? Well she's the most well-known script writer in the industry atm, compounded by the fact she won the Individual Animation Kobe Award for 2011.

[Archon_Wing]

Actually, I would consider the AnoHana one to be pretty good, even though it was a bit outrageous. Though later in the show it got sorta overboard and derp, much like the later part of the show in general.

[Triple_R]

A few points on HSI, which are probably general enough as to not require spoiler space.

I agree with Haak that Ko isn't that bad. But he never really seemed "cool" to me.

That's actually the biggest problem I have with Okada's male characters, particularly in HSI. They almost never get to be cool, or have "moments of awesome", shall we say. Now if the entire cast was like that, if they were all a collection of "lovable losers", then that would be one thing. But that's not not the case in HSI, as a lot of the female characters in it come across as "cool" to me. In other words, they come across as some combination of accomplished, talented, strong, effective, smooth, etc...

Even Minko, for all her flaws, is a serious-minded popular beauty (that's how she's perceived in-universe, at least) who looks to have a good future as a cook ahead of her.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Actually, I would consider the AnoHana one to be pretty good, even though it was a bit outrageous. Though later in the show it got sorta overboard and derp, much like the later part of the show in general.

I honestly loved Menma. That was great at both a comedy level, and at a character development level.

I have nothing against cross-dressing males in fiction. It's just that Okada goes to the well too often on that, imo. I mean, I wouldn't want Hulk Hogan-esque macho-men in every Okada-wrote anime show either, as much as I often like those sorts of characters (and Hulk Hogan himself).

It's fine for a writer to have certain character types and designs that they like, and go back to sometimes. But with Okada, it's reached the level of unintentional self-parody, I think.

[Pocari_Sweat]

There was this episode in AKB0048 (I forgot which one), which was about "haters". One of the AKB members was getting harassed via hate-mail by one of her fans because the fan did not approve of certain behaviour that the member was doing - this is very similar to real life Japan where overboard "hardcore idol fans" blackmail certain idol members.

The funny thing is however, it got to a point where the idols were told to "toughen the fuck up" and that one should "embrace the haters". I mean, by the end of the episode, that AKB0048 member that was being harassed was bursting out tears in happiness whilst crying out "MY VERY FIRST HATER!". I found this utterly and unintentionally hilarious instead of being "touched" by its drama.

I mean Okada is already [in]famous as a person who trolls shippers, and often times write rather "trainwreck" endings or at often times endings that are the considered "undesirable" from a fan/audience's perspective. Is it self-parody commentary or is it just one of her more "lul" type plots?

You be the judge, but I can't help that the latter was at least -slightly- the case

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A few points on HSI, which are probably general enough as to not require spoiler space.

I agree with Haak that Ko isn't that bad. But he never really seemed "cool" to me.

In all honesty I thought Ko was pretty cool. Pretty much every scene he was in he was either proactive in his pursuit (Confessing in the very first episode and trying to visit Ohana despite everything shitting in his face), demonstrating tremendous amounts of nerves (hanging out with her when she came back and not even acting nervous once and when Ohana finally tells him to stop chasing her he just says "Sure okay.").

The only problem I had with his character was that he didn't have nearly enough screen time he deserved. There was so much more potential in his character that was under-utilised.

That's actually the biggest problem I have with Okada's male characters, particularly in HSI. They almost never get to be cool, or have "moments of awesome", shall we say. Now if the entire cast was like that, if they were all a collection of "lovable losers", then that would be one thing. But that's not not the case in HSI, as a lot of the female characters in it come across as "cool" to me. In other words, they come across as some combination of accomplished, talented, strong, effective, smooth, etc...

Even Minko, for all her flaws, is a serious-minded popular beauty (that's how she's perceived in-universe, at least) who looks to have a good future as a cook ahead of her.

I honestly loved Menma. That was great at both a comedy level, and at a character development level.

I have nothing against cross-dressing males in fiction. It's just that Okada goes to the well too often on that, imo. I mean, I wouldn't want Hulk Hogan-esque macho-men in every Okada-wrote anime show either, as much as I often like those sorts of characters (and Hulk Hogan himself).

It's fine for a writer to have certain character types and designs that they like, and go back to sometimes. But with Okada, it's reached the level of unintentional self-parody, I think.

But yes I do agree that male characters were coming off unreasonably worse. The thing is though that HSI was probably her most "feministic" work. There certainly is no doubt that she's capable and willing to make male characters do ridiculously cool things. Take Aquarion Evol for example. There were serious flaws in that story but one thing you can say is that the story never let up a chance at having male characters do cool things whether it was defying destiny, sacrificing your heterosexuality or even sacrificing your life for the sake of your loved one. If you think about it, the male characters overshadowed the female characters by a significant degree.

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

There was this episode in AKB0048 (I forgot which one), which was about "haters". One of the AKB members was getting harassed via hate-mail by one of her fans because the fan did not approve of certain behaviour that the member was doing - this is very similar to real life Japan where overboard "hardcore idol fans" blackmail certain idol members.

The funny thing is however, it got to a point where the idols were told to "toughen the fuck up" and that one should "embrace the haters". I mean, by the end of the episode, that AKB0048 member that was being harassed was bursting out tears in happiness whilst crying out "MY VERY FIRST HATER!". I found this utterly and unintentionally hilarious instead of being "touched" by its drama.

I mean Okada is already [in]famous as a person who trolls shippers, and often times write rather "trainwreck" endings or at often times endings that are the considered "undesirable" from a fan/audience's perspective. Is it self-parody commentary or is it just one of her more "lul" type plots?

You be the judge, but I can't help that the latter was at least -slightly- the case

I honestly don't think Okada trolls. If you're talking about True Tears when you say she trolls shippers then I don't think she trolled anyone. We already knew who the final pair would be right from the get go. I actually liked Noe and thought she was better with Shin that Hiromi but even I could see from the first few episodes who would end up with who. The problem was that Okada did too good of a job with Noe and like so many other harem writers, she accidently made a second girl more likeable than the canon one and she did a poor job of twisting into the right ending by destroying Noe's character and turning her into a mopy crazy animal abuser. But there wasn't any trolling.

She didn't troll anyone in Aquarion Evol either. It was just like that from the start.

And I honestly don't think that "hater" episode in AKB0048 was a troll either. As far as I’m aware of, she doesn’t seem to be famous enough to have a hatedom in Japan so there's no reason why she would.

I know it’s a personal thing but for me one of the worst things you can call a writer is a troll because then you're saying that there's no sincerity in their stories. And for me sincerity is extremely important. Often times I've managed to like crappy stories like the To Aru series, ridiculous drama by Jun Maeda in Angel Beats and even dumbcrap shows like Guilty Crown because I felt a genuine sense of sincerity and an honest desire to tell a story. It’s pretty much the biggest reason why I love Toradora!, Redline and Summer Wars. All of those shows were actually pretty standard plot wise but the sincerity behind them was phenomenal. In contrast I generally hate anime where the main appeal is typical ecchi/harem/”eating cake” moe crap because there’s no real desire to tell an actual story.

And I’ve always felt there was sincerity in HSI, even in the crappy feminist BS, so I really do think Okada is sincere in her writing. The only time I feel she trolls is during the random cross-dressing but that’s about it. For the record though, Okada hasn’t spared female characters in this. She made a female character cross-dress in the recent Lupin III anime and even went as far to turn a girl into a guy in Aquarion Evol. XP

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Haak

In all honesty I thought Ko was pretty cool. Pretty much every scene he was in he was either proactive in his pursuit (Confessing in the very first episode and trying to visit Ohana despite everything shitting in his face), demonstrating tremendous amounts of nerves (hanging out with her when she came back and not even acting nervous once and when Ohana finally tells him to stop chasing her he just says "Sure okay.").

Spoiler:

IMO, Ko was depicted as a rather wishy-washy, non-assertive type. He won't give up on Ohana and is vocal about his interest in her, but at the same time, he lets circumstances dictate outcome instead of seizing opportunities for himself. We see this in his inability to give his co-worker a proper answer (as a major conflict for him is whether or not he should continue pursuing Ohana), and your last point illustrates this further.

He's inoffensive, non-threatening, and well-intentioned. Nevertheless, the depiction isn't exactly flattering, particularly in light of complaints over today's "passive men". I don't think cool would be an apt description.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by TJR

Spoiler:

IMO, Ko was depicted as a rather wishy-washy, non-assertive type. He won't give up on Ohana and is vocal about his interest in her, but at the same time, he lets circumstances dictate outcome instead of seizing opportunities for himself. We see this in his inability to give his co-worker a proper answer (as a major conflict for him is whether or not he should continue pursuing Ohana), and your last point illustrates this further.

He's inoffensive, non-threatening, and well-intentioned. Nevertheless, the depiction isn't exactly flattering, particularly in light of complaints over today's "passive men". I don't think cool would be an apt description.

Spoiler for HSI:

My general interpretation was that whilst he really wanted an answer and had a clear desire for her (as he demonstrated by trying to visit her and getting frustrated), he didn't want to push for an answer because that would only make things more awkward and difficult (something that he might know from experience). I thought he demonstrating amazing patience and control over his emotions. As for the co-worker, he did actually give a proper answer. He told her he couldn't return her feelings for him but the co-worker said she'd wait anyway.

And he can't do anything but accept Ohana's rejection, so i don't see how that illustrates his passivity. There's not much you can do in a long distance relationship when you don't even know what the relationship is and especially when you get rejected. To be honest I don't really think much of the whole Dogged Nice Guy trope.