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Old 2012-12-12, 17:48   Link #31361
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yep, here: https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained

It looks longer than I remember it being. Maybe it's still being updated?
Thanks for the link.
Just wondering... it goes on like in the first part through all the video?

Because it's terribly... verbose in the beginning. He could have said the same thing using the 10% of the words he used...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If Shkanontrice is true, then this part of EP2 is our best hint to her character, and probably meta-Beatrce's as well. Since we don't yet have absolute proof that she committed the crimes, this section is probably our best bet for figuring out whether she was guilty or not.

It's definitely possible for us to find evidence of Beatrice as the killer in this section. I think I was one of the first to try that post-EP6, at least on this board. However, Ryuukishi has made a point about giving suspects the benefit of the doubt several times in Umineko, so I'd like to look at this section again.
Well, Ep 7 implied that even if Battler hadn't returned something would have happened so it's possible that a duel between Shannon and Kanon was already in program and this duel would end with the 'death' of one of the two.

The dialogue between Beato and Shannon is interesting. Shannon says she doesn't want to use Beato's magic to get George's love because as of now everything has been peaceful and Beato's magic would change it and Beato agrees. If Shannon doesn't do as Beato says, nothing will change, everything will stay as it is and she'll never have a chance at love.


It really seems an inner monologue between chosing if doing something and just letting things as they are but, with the implication that doing something maybe will give Shannon's George's love but it'll also will cause lot of troubles.

The following parts are also interesting.

Shannon gets to be with George and be happy thanks to Beato but then Beato confesses she did it only on a whim and with the purpose to tear them apart.

If we consider Beato and Shannon are the same person it means more or less than Yasu longed for love (confirmed by Ep 7 in which she says it doesn't matter where it is as long as she's welcomed and loved) so she tried to have it with George because she had the chance to pursue it however she didn't really plan for a long term relation possibly also because she believed a long term relation would work as Kanon insists. In fact he too confesses he would like to pursue love but refuses to believe it oculd work.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
That interview sure is interesting, because Ryu is saying not that she couldn't choose between the three, but more that she was unwilling to let the any of the romances fail. It's like suicide was her plan all along, but she can't let a character die until their goal is achieved. Shannon can go at any time, as she gets the ring, Kanon does often die after a touching scene with Jessica and Beatrice dies once when she gives up and then once when Battler completes her.

Also while saying she sacrificed herself to keep everyone else on the island alive is sweet in the theory of the story, in practice it is a little bit bonkers.
I'm wondering if the interview is referring to Yasu/Beato the writer instead than to MetaBeato.

I mean, there's who says that statistically girls prefer stories with a tragic ending, like let's say Titanic or Romeo and Juliet.

The scene in which Beato drown herself is likely not the exact truth on how things went. Before it Featherine threw a rose in the sea and the text said:

Quote:
With the tale of that golden rose, ......let us mark the end of this long story.
So maybe Beato's suicide is the tale of that golden rose (who incidentally was thrown in the sea to drown as well).

So the whole weird talk about girls' preferences doesn't apply to choices in life but to choices in how to end a fantasy story. Ryukishi assumes for a girl like Beato it'll be more romantic to write a tale in which all the three love be fulfilled in the golden land, for Beato to drown herself satisfied she just had Battler's feelings (similar to how Shannon in Ep 2 said for her it was enough to have George ask her to marry him) instead than just have Beato live a happy life with Battler and who cares about Shannon and Kanon's love story (he seems to link this choice with also part of the truth of Rokkenjima being revealed... I wonder if this means that, since Beato could only live on Rokkenjima, due to the set of rules she herself created, in order to leave she would have to turn into her true form or something like that).


Which is opinable (I would have preferred Beato and Battler to leave together and I'm a girl) but it could have some basis in how many girls like tragic love stories (not that they want to live them though) and, as far as I'm involved, is more acceptable than saying that, in real life, all girls are satisfied with just souls joined together. It can be fine and dandy in a story but, in real life, that's nowhere near enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
For that matter, how is Dlanor even a woman? She's an executioner doll from Heaven who is also the representation of a set of rules. She has a female form, whoopdie-doo. How exactly does that give her any sort of inherent understanding of the life of a human being of any gender, again? At least Bernkastel/Beatrice/Battler/et al were once human.

Then again expecting the backstories of any of the magical/meta characters to make any sense is barking up the wrong tree.
There's a chance that she wasn't an executioner doll from Heaven and the representation of a set of rules right from the beginning but became it afterward.
After all Beato too is the representation of the rules of the gameboard and Will also seems to represent another set of rules.


Maybe the sidestory about Cornelia tells us more about Dlanor as well but as far as i know it hasn't been translated yet... or has it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Battler was drunk at this point, so we can affirm that he didn't have a reliable perspective. Dunno how he saw Kinzo there, maybe Kinzo's corpse was put in the room and he halucinated it talking thanks to being drunk. Either way, the majority consensus is that he doesn't have a reliable perspective at that scene thanks to drunkenesss.

And what flashback in EP5? Can you be more specific?
Maybe it was MetaBattler the one who got drunk? he and PieceBattler seem to overlap here and there in EP 2. That or PieceBattler has passed out and was dreaming. In this case we have his reliable perspective of what he dreamt... which isn't usueful at all.
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Old 2012-12-12, 18:08   Link #31362
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I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Thanks for the link.
Just wondering... it goes on like in the first part through all the video?

Because it's terribly... verbose in the beginning. He could have said the same thing using the 10% of the words he used...
He's like that the whole way through.
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Old 2012-12-12, 19:24   Link #31363
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.
I seem to recall chronotrig and others noting that the actual Japanese text uses a mere "counter" as well. Which would be closest to a subjectless "these six are" without specifying what they are six of.

I mean I don't like red twisting either, but I don't think you can demonstrably prove the red is referring to bodies when it says persons, especially since Erika felt compelled to force Battler to be specific about it.
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:27   Link #31364
Kiltias
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Can somebody explain what the hell is wrong with the time in EP 1?

Eva and Hideyoshi were in their room at 7 (so said the TV).
The smell of Kinzos corpse was noticed at 6:30 according to the Clock in the hall.

Important or just a mistake from Ryukishi?
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:43   Link #31365
GabrieliosP
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I'm assuming that you're talking about the anime since you mentioned "clock in the hall, so I can't check right now (no episodes at hand at the moment). Assume it was an (yet another) error from DEEN.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:18   Link #31366
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Wanderer pointed this out, but just to clarify, you're probably remembering this part of the story wrong. Rosa was definitely in the mansion, and didn't leave, until 1:00am.
I have right in front of me.Don't give me it's incorrect.


Quote:
Nope. Regarding Episode 3 you would clearly ignore Red Truth.
Rosa and Maria are dead.
The causes of death are as Nanjo examined them.
The two, Rosa and Maria, were murdered by another person.


Rosa and Maria are dead.
The causes of death are as Nanjo examined them.
The two, Rosa and Maria, were murdered by other people.
Rosa and Maria are dead.Never argued that.
Cause of Death.Yup fits.
Murder by another person:
I asked that before regarding being killed by others and it was answered that it was ambigious in japanese being brought up that Beato was denying herself which is the same as suicide in her case.


Quote:
I'm assuming that you're talking about the anime since you mentioned "clock in the hall, so I can't check right now (no episodes at hand at the moment). Assume it was an (yet another) error from DEEN.
Manga.
Same one where Maria draws 6 people into the sand when the 9th Twilight was brought on the Beach by Battler..Natsuhi,Battler,Maria and Rosa are clearly visibly drawn by Maria.The other 2 remained unfinished yet shortly before its indicated Maria drew 2 tiny circles into someones face when the others had dots as eyes.
Followed by:
"Everyone dies noone survive" and a wave destroys the drawing at the same time that was said.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:36   Link #31367
GabrieliosP
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No, I just went and checked, if you pay attention, the clock is actually saying 7:30PM-ish rather than 6PM.
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Old 2012-12-13, 01:28   Link #31368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Murder by another person:
I asked that before regarding being killed by others and it was answered that it was ambigious in japanese being brought up that Beato was denying herself which is the same as suicide in her case.
Nope, it is not ambiguous, it's rather much more clear.
The Japanese is 楼座と真里亞の二人は他殺です the word tasatsu (他殺) means the act of killing by another person than the one being killed. So a (too) direct translation would be, "These two people, who are Rosa and Maria, were killed by another person than themselves."

Concerning Beato it is rather the other way around as well.
When asked about the locked room chain in the same Episode Beato refuses to repeat the sentence "All 6 were murdered by another person", then admits "None of the 6 commited suicide" and was only stopped by Ronove when trying to repeat "None of the 6 died through an accident."
She also refuses to repeat "Kanon was murdered by another person" in EP4 during the final duel about EP1, which leads Battler to assume that he died through an accident because that is neither murder nor suicide.
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:46   Link #31369
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.
Hahaha, that's a good one. I think this should finally put a nail in the coffin of the argument that the word "people" has to mean the same thing every time it's used.

It's pretty silly that so many people can't believe Shkanon just because of that red.
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Old 2012-12-13, 04:07   Link #31370
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I seem to recall chronotrig and others noting that the actual Japanese text uses a mere "counter" as well. Which would be closest to a subjectless "these six are" without specifying what they are six of.
It uses a counter, yes. A counter for people. It's not the same as the word "people", but it means people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean I don't like red twisting either, but I don't think you can demonstrably prove the red is referring to bodies when it says persons, especially since Erika felt compelled to force Battler to be specific about it.
It's funny you say that, because Beatrice saying "3 people- in other words- 3 bodies" is exactly what KnownNoMore claims proves that "person"="body".

KnownNoMore's fundamental flaw... well one of them... is that he doesn't view red as communication between characters, but rather an absolute, perfect word of God from Ryukishi himself. It's like red is the bible to him, which is ironic because he's- you'd know this if you watch some of his other videos- extremely atheistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hahaha, that's a good one. I think this should finally put a nail in the coffin of the argument that the word "people" has to mean the same thing every time it's used.
I still think it can, it just can't mean what KNM says it does. There are other words with fishy definitions in Umineko, like "exist" and "dead". And, if you watch Renall's video, "everyone".
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Old 2012-12-13, 05:29   Link #31371
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Speaking of exists, I had a question.

In the VN, whenever anyone (including Maria) says Beatrice exists, it's always written as " Beatrice 'exists' "


Is this the same in the Japanese version, and if so, does it have the same implications as in English? Because if I were to use air quotations (which admittedly are written as ") in a sentence, it would usually mean that I am adding an emphasis to the word to imply that I am either using the meaning a bit loosely, acknowledging that what I am saying is probably a lie or outright pointing out that while I am agreeing to use that word, I know %100 it is false (ie, oh sure, the "Cat" ate all the chocolate).

This would be fine if most people used it, but Maria too?
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Old 2012-12-13, 06:36   Link #31372
GabrieliosP
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I think it is because Onscripter lacks the possibilty of using bold and italics for example, and the only way to emphatize a word is like that. They actually aren't using air quotes, but putting emphasis on the word "exist", like they mean: Beatrice exists, but not in the same way I or you exist.
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Old 2012-12-13, 08:11   Link #31373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Speaking of exists, I had a question.

In the VN, whenever anyone (including Maria) says Beatrice exists, it's always written as " Beatrice 'exists' "


Is this the same in the Japanese version, and if so, does it have the same implications as in English?
The Japanese was Beatrice wa "i"ru (ベアトリーチェは”い”る).
In Japanese there is a distinction between existing as an object or concept (ある=aru) and existing as a being (いる=iru), so by marking it "i"ru it is less a question of whether Beatrice exists in general terms but rather being vague about whether she exists as a being or simply as an object or concept on the island.
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Old 2012-12-13, 08:34   Link #31374
GabrieliosP
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Ah, so it is like that then. Another thing to add to Battler's 18<X<19 people dilema during EP1.
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Old 2012-12-13, 09:17   Link #31375
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I still think it can, it just can't mean what KNM says it does. There are other words with fishy definitions in Umineko, like "exist" and "dead". And, if you watch Renall's video, "everyone".
Um, I'm the one who takes the expression "everyone else" at face value, something neither Ryukishi nor KnownNoMore does. Do they count absolutely everyone else? No. Well, red is God, bitches, you can't just ignore it! Clearly, Ryukishi meant literally everyone or he wouldn't have said that.

I may have slightly stretched the definition of "the cousins' room," just a wee bit... but I think my reasoning that it's defined as "the room containing 'everyone else'" is totally solid!
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Old 2012-12-13, 09:40   Link #31376
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Nope, it is not ambiguous, it's rather much more clear.
The Japanese is 楼座と真里亞の二人は他殺です the word tasatsu (他殺) means the act of killing by another person than the one being killed. So a (too) direct translation would be, "These two people, who are Rosa and Maria, were killed by another person than themselves."

Concerning Beato it is rather the other way around as well.
When asked about the locked room chain in the same Episode Beato refuses to repeat the sentence "All 6 were murdered by another person", then admits "None of the 6 commited suicide" and was only stopped by Ronove when trying to repeat "None of the 6 died through an accident."
She also refuses to repeat "Kanon was murdered by another person" in EP4 during the final duel about EP1, which leads Battler to assume that he died through an accident because that is neither murder nor suicide.
I merely gave the answer that was given to me in this Thread when I first posted here and noone objected to that answer.



Anyway I do apologize for bringing up Rosa but the manga simply puts so much on it.
I just can't see anything else when for example Evatrice mentions Rosa dreams to be a witch and flying around like a Butterfly while Maria mentions Beatrice entered the Parlor in EP 1 by turning into Butterflies as well Rosa trapping other Butterflies into spiderwebs.
Not to mention, Evatrice being stated to be the Black Witch that is a chain of pain and sadness who's source is Eva.I mean:
EP 1- Gets mad at Maria after returning from the Adults Conference.
EP 2- Gets mad at Maria after Eva mocks her.
EP 3- Evatrice appears in the Garden to Rosa and Maria after Eva solved the Epitaph and found the gold.
And in all 3 cases Beatrice appears and in EP 4 Beatrice appears to Maria also when Rosa freaked out after coming from another business trip which at least according to wiki says were meetings with Rudolf and Eva.
I mean, a connection between Beatrice,Rosa and the Black Witch is undeniable and it all fits Mariage Sorcerie as well perfectly.
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Old 2012-12-13, 10:49   Link #31377
GabrieliosP
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Yeah, Rosa did meet with Rudolf and Eva before the conference to plan how to extract money from Krauss, but was it stated that it was the same trip? According to the workers at her shop, she was in a trip with her boyfriend. Why would she lie saying that she was going to a vacation with her boyfriend, when she could have said that she went to have a business trip with her siblings?
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Old 2012-12-13, 13:51   Link #31378
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Yeah, Rosa did meet with Rudolf and Eva before the conference to plan how to extract money from Krauss, but was it stated that it was the same trip?

According to the workers at her shop, she was in a trip with her boyfriend. Why would she lie saying that she was going to a vacation with her boyfriend, when she could have said that she went to have a business trip with her siblings?
I highly doubt they met up more than once especially with such a theme.
Embezzlement,extracting Money,Suspecting their brother hiding Kinzos death, heck Krauss could have gone to Jail.
That's not something you discuss on a very single trip.

First of all:
Her employee merely went by what he/she heard.
And even then, Rosa had her day off so there is no need to lie to her employees but solely to Maria which can easily be explained with not wanting to drag her into the Adults business as well as wanting to keep the meetings secret at any cost.
Rudolf even calls it "A Joint Conspiracy".
No doubt the Adults intended to keep it secret at any cost as each one had their own issues they wanted to keep secret.
Hideyoshi with his stocks,Rudolf with the Trial and Rosas Endorsers.

And even then, my point still stands as Rosa once again went mad at Maria after an encounter with Eva at Atami.
So let me say it again:
In Episode 1 Rosa hits Maria after the Adults conference.
in Episode 2 Rosa hits Maria after Eva mocks her.
In Episode 3 Eva solves the Riddle and Rosa and Maria see Evatrice, stated as the Black Witch which is what Maria says about Rosa when she's mad that she's possessed.
In Episode 4 we see this at least once, on her return from Atami, a comfirmed meeting of Adults and hits Maria and potentially another time at a meeting in Sapporo where sh- really hits the fan.

And there is no disargueing that the Black Witch is linked to Beatrice.
Just look at Ange and Maria belonging to the same Alliance and both being related to the Black Witch/Evatrice.
Eva-Rosa-Maria
Eva-Ange
Quote:
You could probably say that through the formation of the alliance, Beatrice gained the Endless Power in true sense.
Maria is stated to have the magic of happiness put in the Black Witch being a chain of pain and sadness and being portrayed as Evatrice.

"Marias magic of happiness severed the chain of pain and sadness that dwelled within Rosa giving her power, defeating Evatrice and giving power to Beatrice."
If Rosa is possessed,Beatrice appears.
Proof is in Episode 1, Rosa gets mad after the Conference, possessed by the Black Witch/Evatrice/Agitated cause of her hated sister,Beatrice appears to Maria while Rosa was in the Garden.Maria and Rosa make up.
Proof is in Episode 2, Gets gets mad after Eva has mocked her.Rosa is once again possessed by the Black Witch/Evatrice/Agitated cause of her sister.When Rosa went to apologize, Beatrice appears.The two made up.
Proof is in Episode 3, Black Witch = Evatrice = Mad Rosa. Evatrice (thus a mad Rosa) appears after of all people Eva solved the Riddle.Beatrice AGAIN appears to them though its stated Beatrice can't be the Golden Witch anymore and both end dead.
Proof is in Episode 4, Rosa hits Maria after her return from Atami where Eva was.
At a later scene, Rosa returns from another trip, gets mad at Maria more than ever.Maria says its the Black Witch in a crazed manner.Beatrice appears.
Note that EP 4 is the following:
Maria and Rosa on Rokkenjima are closer than ever.
Mariage Sorcerie is formed, where Sakutarou turns big when Rosa said she had plans to make a big one instead of a small one.
See it this way:
After the fight, Rosa and Maria made up and Rosa made the big one for her, Mariage Sorcerie was formed and Rosa accepted Maria and her delusions.
"The first clause is that witches accept another."

It even says that if Ange would have stayed within Mariage Sorcerie and learned Marias magic her and Eva would have had a better relationship.

That's why I say:
Mariage Sorcerie is a magical and almost abstract way of acceptance and love.
An Alliance that at first was Rosa accepting Maria with the latter having fixed the Relationship thus creating a bond of love, it gained a second member Ange who just like Maria also had a mother figure possessed by the Black Witch, yet Ange lost her belief in Magic and was excommunicated as she denied magic and Marias magic of happiness and being unable to fix her relationship with Eva.

If we think of Evatrice as the source of negative feelings caused by Eva Episode 3 potentially gains a different view.
Kyrie and Rudolf saw Evatrice - They came behind Eva solving it and acted like in Episode 7 trying to make the money their own and started by interrogating Hideyoshi who knew nothing.
Nanjo saw Evatrice - This is after Eva shot Jessica.All one needs to assume is that Nanjo believed Eva did it on purpose.
And as said, Rosa saw Evatrice because her hated Sister solved it and became head.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:16   Link #31379
Wegenbarth
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Without love, it can't be seen.
Now I can see how this also fits for Rosatrice thanks to you Kiltias.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:32   Link #31380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
That's why I say:
Mariage Sorcerie is a magical and almost abstract way of acceptance and love.
An Alliance that at first was Rosa accepting Maria with the latter having fixed the Relationship thus creating a bond of love, it gained a second member Ange who just like Maria also had a mother figure possessed by the Black Witch, yet Ange lost her belief in Magic and was excommunicated as she denied magic and Marias magic of happiness and being unable to fix her relationship with Eva.

If we think of Evatrice as the source of negative feelings caused by Eva Episode 3 potentially gains a different view.
This is all a very nice separate theory, but how does it work in the greater scheme of things? You say that there is some kind of link between Rosa and Beatrice beyond everything that has already been discussed, but how does it help in the greater picture, especially considering that Rosa is removed from the gameboard fairly early except for EP2.

Considering Evatrice being exactly what the Black Witch concept is about, I find that difficult. Evatrice is for me only one possible solution that is heavily implied towards the reader for reasons that are uncovered in EP7 and 8, namely putting a lid on a box containing endless stories in the form of an obvious villain.
I agree with you when you say that Evatrice is more than Eva, but it is not only something that should be considered within the gameboard-narrative.

As I said, I fail to see what your idea contributes beyond EP3 and even there it appears incomplete as it fails to explain what then actually happened.
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