Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Now about Taiwan, that's another bunch of idiots to add on the list.

What will we expect from undercover Pro-Communist Activist... They threw lots of blame to America and UN while pushing their government to seek more "open" policy to Communist Nations... This is same what activist do here in the Philippines...

[Sumeragi]

I'm not quite sure..... Assuming that is the Taiwan Solidarity Union, we're having a pro-independence party joining this.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

Okay.

To be more precise, a major transition of power is about to take place. The CPC is more openly divided than it has been in many years and, worse for the CPC's leaders, publicly with the crisis involving major party member Bo Xilai. It is taking every advantage of the distraction provided by the anti-Japanese riots, if it wasn't responsible for them in the first place, to quietly resolve internal party divisions.

All of China knows somewhere in their hearts that the Maoist mandate is dead, and the CPC rules because it rules, nothing more. Throughout the 90's and 00's, that wasn't too much of a problem because China was experiencing meteoric economic growth, but now that even that is slowing down faster than the government expects*, the only way for the CPC to maintain power in the long term is to legitimize itself with Chinese nationalism and a paramount image of stability.

*China's leaders are no fools; they know this will happen and they've been touting for a while the necessity for a "controlled cooldown" of the PRC economy, but the recent slump exceeds their predictions by some margins.

Although this latest round of incident was provoked by everybody's favorite Governor Ishihara attempting to buy and develop the Senkaku Islands, forcing the Japanese government to preempt him, I view the massive Chinese reaction to be deliberate provocation by a Party hungry for external distractions for what seems, to me, to be an increasingly restive populace. If foreign governments are worrying and keeping tabs over the upcoming transfer of power, citizens of the PRC are quite more...anxious.

Worse, the decades of military buildup and the recent years of intra-Party instability has strengthened the power of the People's Liberation Army relative to the CPC proper. Although in China it has long been a key principle of the CPC that the Party controls the gun and not the other way around (a legacy of the brutal warlord period), that doesn't change the fact that guns have power in themselves. The PLA is just about the most jingoistic force in Chinese politics, and the growth of its power is not a happy sign. Even the Americans are making serious efforts to establish contact and liaisons with the PLA because, so I speculate, they want someone who can call it off if some jingoist nutjob gets a hold of that nasty red button.

One can see how the overturning of decades of charm diplomacy that used to be the PRC's policy on everyone except the hated, hated Japanese has engendered such overt hatred from its neighbors just by reading through this thread and the opinions of our Asian members, many of whom are quite level-headed otherwise. This new belligerence maybe a direct outgrowth of the PLA's newfound power, and if it is a sign of what is to come, I am not happy.

[Dragonkid11]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

What will we expect from undercover Pro-Communist Activist... They threw lots of blame to America and UN while pushing their government to seek more "open" policy to Communist Nations... This is same what activist do here in the Philippines...

Taiwan supports communism!??!

When?
The last time I noticed Taiwan is when they kept pointing middle fingers to Chinese communists and said "Fuck your Mao"

[Urzu 7]

@Irenicus: That post helped better inform me of some things. I went to give you a plus rep, but I gave one to you recently and need to give more plus reps before I can give another to you.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

One can see how the overturning of decades of charm diplomacy that used to be the PRC's policy on everyone except the hated, hated Japanese has engendered such overt hatred from its neighbors just by reading through this thread and the opinions of our Asian members, many of whom are quite level-headed otherwise. This new belligerence maybe a direct outgrowth of the PLA's newfound power, and if it is a sign of what is to come, I am not happy.

I'm not sure I followed this part. The PLA could be purposefully trying to create more unrest in China/in the region? CPC stoked the flames of anti-Japanese sentiments and the PLA wants to stoke them further? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding that paragraph since I only know so much about the CPC and the PLA. - Edit: I think I understand it a bit more now, but I'll let you reply.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

Taiwan supports communism!??!

When?
The last time I noticed Taiwan is when they kept pointing middle fingers to Chinese communists and said "Fuck your Mao"

I mean the activist. They like to pretend.

Ask them if they hate Japan and America, they'll shout "We hate capitalist America and Japan".

If you ask them how about China they'll say..." everything should be done by peaceful means."

WTF? Your grandfathers risk their lives getting out of there!!!

[kaizerknight01]

I hope calmer and cooler heads prevail on this matter , i fear the hardliners are just using this as cover ...... Form a social-economic stand point it seems China food inflation is sky rocketing, and basic commodities too ..... Irenicus as suggested the communist party is in transition ..... all side jockeying for power/ influence political greed at its worst

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

Taiwan supports communism!??!

When?
The last time I noticed Taiwan is when they kept pointing middle fingers to Chinese communists and said "Fuck your Mao"

Taiwan is by no mean s a solidary nation, it's actually very divided and polarized between Chinese interest and Taiwan independents.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Then, I guess someone in China will need to step up and dissolve the CCP completely just like when Mikhail Gorbachev finally ordered the dissolution of the Central Committee and the CPSU. And it needs to be done very quickly before military and other radicals have too big of an influence.

[Endless Soul]

More silliness.

Beijing hints at bond attack on Japan
A senior advisor to the Chinese government has called for an attack on the Japanese bond market to precipitate a funding crisis and bring the country to its knees, unless Tokyo reverses its decision to nationalise the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea.

Full article here.

Endless "" Soul

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

More silliness.



Full article here.

Endless "" Soul

What are they expecting? All the Japanese companies' factories on Chinese soil and which were mentioned earlier could be closed tomorrow morning, and then we'll see who would be standing on the knees.

Japan's answer should use some Clint Eastwood-like tone: Go ahead. Make my day.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

I'm not sure I followed this part. The PLA could be purposefully trying to create more unrest in China/in the region? CPC stoked the flames of anti-Japanese sentiments and the PLA wants to stoke them further? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding that paragraph since I only know so much about the CPC and the PLA.

I'm sure you already got it [the edit thing], but anyway:

The People's Liberation Army is traditionally and even formally under the control of the Communist Party of China, partly because the CPC's first generation, themselves military commanders who fought the warlords of China's turbulent warlord period and the Kuomintang in the Civil War, knew full well the potential power of the "gun" and the danger of military coups. They subordinated it into a tool of the Party and State and largely kept it under control -- a situation that continues today.

Increasingly, however, high-ranking PLA officers are starting to grow in influence within the CPC itself as the Party experienced turmoil. This alarmed some factions, while others found willing allies. Details here in the West are scarce because the Party likes to keep those kinds of factional struggles under wraps and far and away from Western media. The most obvious evidences are usually official publications of the CPC and the PLA, those military magazine thingies where military writers published opinion articles we also have in the US.

Being, of course, that the job of a modern military is to draw up contingency plans for everything, like war with the Americans or a scuffle with the JMSDF, it's natural for some to start feeling like those contingency plans could actually work, not to mention seeing all those tanks, their tanks, tend to give one a sense of...dominance, there seem to be opinions among the ranks of the PLA's officer corps that China's increasingly powerful military ought to be leveraged in various diplomatic disputes in increasingly bold ways. Not outright war, mind you, but Endless Soul's link to article about a senior advisor suggesting economic sanction against Japan reveals this growing attitude of confidence.

It is unfortunately the kind of confidence that is not very good for anybody's health. A Chinese economic war on Japan seem sensible to the mind that view Japan only as an enemy to be contained and defeated, but it is actually mutual suicide for both, because despite all the nationalistic hatreds both nations are very major trade partners. Cut off all that activity and a major chunk of Asian, if not global trade, is likewise cut off. Moreover, these recent tensions are undoing a previous and continuing effort of the People's Republic to promote its rise as peaceful, inevitable, and good for everyone in Asia. Maybe in the past the citizens of many Southeast Asian nations would agree, or at least would like to agree if only because Chinese business is good business, but now with nationalistic attitudes flaring over the little islands and the fossil fuels under them, well...

I would hate to see the tension flares up anymore. Despite everything, Japan is still the world's third largest economy with a hundred million people, extremely capable technological sectors, and a "Self-Defense Force" that outclasses most nations' militaries. It is fully capable of rearming itself dramatically and provoke a dangerous new arms race if it fears China enough. And on a more personal level, I share the hope of a sizable portion of the Japanese citizenry who, perhaps overly optimistically, holds on dearly to the Article 9 of their Constitution as a symbol that their nation has singularly renounced war as a tool of the state, a tool of humanity. They stand opposed to the ultranationalists who believe Japan's wings have been clipped by the Article 9, and a Japan that believes it is under an existential crisis from China will surrender to the other opinion, abandon this limitation, this talisman of peace, and it will send a stark message of what kind of world the 21st century is to become.

Oh, and don't worry about the rep thing. I myself really should give out more before I deserve any.

[Ithekro]

Economically, I image Japan could get away with that. Military? While the US is putting in another missile defense system in Japan, and has a part of the Seventh Fleet out their, Japan itself does not have the forces to take on China like they did in the 1930s. Japan has no nuclear weapons that I am aware. So they would have to hope the defense systems work as well as advertived if it come down to it. Fortunately I think the old rules still stand. The first one that uses nukes in war is likely going to get nuked by the other nuclear powers. Especially missiles. Bombs would be likely to get retalitory strikes from the USA and maybe even Russia (they aren't that friendly with each other).

No telling what India would do with an openning in China's borders due to their forces being shifted to the coastline.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

What are they expecting? All the Japanese companies' factories on Chinese soil and which were mentioned earlier could be closed tomorrow morning, and then we'll see who would be standing on the knees.

Japan's answer should use some Clint Eastwood-like tone: Go ahead. Make my day.

Or maybe something like: What's that America? Oh, I can't tell the Chinese government to do that to themselves.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

My understanding is that Japan sent a few ships that are a part of the JSDF.

You sure? By Japanese standards that's an ultra heavy response

JMSDF or coast guard?

At this rate there will be Cold War style aerial interceptions soon

[Urzu 7]

Thanks for the info, Irenicus.

Do people here generally agree that Japan has more of a right to claim the islands than China?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

You sure? By Japanese standards that's an ultra heavy response

JMSDF or coast guard?

At this rate there will be Cold War style aerial interceptions soon

Okay, now that you mention the coast guard, what I think I read in News Stories (before this thread was made) was someone talking about coast guard ships going to the islands and that they were hoping the JMSDF doesn't get involved next.

[Cosmic Eagle]

The navy won't actually get involved unless the PLAN does the same first....Doing so without appropriate reason would just strengthen the enemy's position

[Urzu 7]

So there are protests and riots in 85 cities in China because Japan sent some coast guard ships to the islands.....awesome.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

So there are protests and riots in 85 cities in China because Japan sent some coast guard ships to the islands.....awesome.

That's normal... They sent big surveillance ships on our seas, we say... "please get out"

When we sent small boats to the area... they shout.. "war!!!!"

Now who are the aggressors here?

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

So there are protests and riots in 85 cities in China because Japan sent some coast guard ships to the islands.....awesome.

Chinese nationalism at its finest... Hey, for the government, letting the rioters focus on Japan instead of the CCP's failures is not a bad plan