Spice and Wolf Light Novel Discussion

[tyranuus]

Perhaps overdoing Amarti as an evil character a little, but from what I remember, it is alluded that Amarti isn't the most principled of traders; and is not exactly very popular, basically in it for himself, screw everyone else.
In essence he's the characterisation of the less-honourable, shrewd, business-focused trader that's referenced in the series, as a direct comparison to Lawrence's generally more compassionate stance.

Tag on some of his actions during the events (and the seeming lack of morals), it's pretty clear why he's not the most popular of characters in the series, especially as he not only tried to steal the travelling companion of another trader (remembering just how valued those are amongst travelling traders as emphasised previously in the series, book 1 IIRC) but also tried to manuever him into accepting his 'duel' or risk losing face.

You could argue Amarti is smitten, and acting out, but he doesn't do himself proud acting the way he does.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

do u think horo fell in love with lawrence in or before volume 3? i think even in volume 4 or 5 its still unsure if she already loves him.

I think she was already infatuated with him before she jumped on his cart.. after all, her story is far too convenient, and she'd surely have noticed Lawrence visiting that village several times beforehand (and he couldn't have been the only choice she had just to leave the town).

But based on the novels, if you consider that illness chapter in volume 7 to be canon, she's realized it by the end of volume 1 (of course she spends several volumes running from that truth).

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Rajura

So, here it is... the long awaited post about what I thought of the whole incident with *spit* Amati *spit*

Hmmm.. it looks like my (even longer) response to you, Rajura, was somehow eaten by Grues just after it claimed to be posted. So I'll summarize my response:

As for Amati, he was a kid who clearly had no idea what he was doing, and thus you could say that Holo (and Lawrence, by extension) used him. Sure, he was an antisocial twit the town could care less about, but he was still basically a kid. And he was used by a master manipulator and her companion. I think he got exactly what he deserved, because he wasn't even aware that he was "stealing" Holo - to him, he was saving her and everything Holo and Lawrence did corroborated that hopelessly naive viewpoint. Asshole or not, you can't fault him for taking a shot at Holo if she kept egging him on. You might as well be angry at her for not being loyal to Lawrence if that's the approach you're going to take. Also, if Amati was unscrupulous to the townspeople, then so was Lawrence - Mark had to point out how it was unscrupulous, and also find a way to make it not-as-unscrupulous.

As for Lawrence being an idiot/inept coward, that's plenty harsh and probably untrue. He's not really an idiot, though he is oblivious about Holo (due to her flirting too much In this story in particular, I'd give him a complete pass for being a dipshit: first off, just before this volume he was just about sold into slavery after mindlessly making a costly mistake just to impress Holo.. and she's all he has now, as a result. So when he starts to feel like he might really be losing her, and then realizes that he's in love.. well, there is really no way I can consider him to be "in his right mind" at any point in this scenario. In fact I'd have a hard time believing he was human if he wasn't an idiot under these circumstances. He wasn't afraid of being teased at all, not once they reached Kumerson. He was afraid that Holo would leave him, first for drunkenly blurting out whether he could leave her two days away from Yoitsu, and then for various other reasons. And let's face it, especially early-on she's being a jerk to him.. flirting with Amati, taking shots at his low self-esteem and attempts to flirt back a her, etc. So many things happen to make him doubt her in this volume that I'm surprised it isn't until he sees the marriage certificate that he finally feels like he might lose her.

Thus giving Holo a pass for her own stupidity, ineptitude, and cowardice, and then bashing on Lawrence.. seems pretty weird to me. She made nothing but mistakes, and they cumulatively added up to something she couldn't control. But she couldn't admit it, even in the end. She got a taste of her own medicine when she went crying to Deanna to solve the problem, instead of facing her own problems.. Deanna put her in a position where she had to WATCH as Lawrence figured out whether Holo was worth all this trouble. And what did Holo do to convince him? Feathers in her frickin' hood. Really? If it wasn't for everyone other than her working so hard, she would have lost Lawrence.

That's partly what makes this such an engaging story - you can't tell why Holo is acting so stupidly.. it could be written off as completely in-her-normal-character, or as her also being head-over-heels and unable to see the mistakes she's making. Her motivations are the subject of fanfics and speculation

As for what Amati asked her, yeah, that's a solid possibility that I could definitely picture
Though I'm happy even with "why don't you dump that ratty flea-infested old tail that jerk forces you to carry around, and let me buy you something more suitable for an innocent, helpless little doll like you?"

[Mr. Anime]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I think she was already infatuated with him before she jumped on his cart.. after all, her story is far too convenient, and she'd surely have noticed Lawrence visiting that village several times beforehand (and he couldn't have been the only choice she had just to leave the town).

But based on the novels, if you consider that illness chapter in volume 7 to be canon, she's realized it by the end of volume 1 (of course she spends several volumes running from that truth).

wow this sounds reasonable and i think it could be true, but maybe we shouldnt interpret too many things into this because u know that the author just planned to write one volume, so i am pretty sure he just wrote and didnt think much about such small details. sadly i need a few more years to read volume 7, but thanks to u i ll definately sleep well tonight thinking about horo and lawrence^^.

FINALLY some1 who thinks that it was horos fault and not lawrence's that all these things with amati happened. In my opinion lawrence isnt at fault AT ALL. Calling him an idiot would be totally absurd. Considering how angry horo was and what she said to him and then even showing him the marriage certificate NOBODY would think "oh yea the girl i m in love with probably pulls a little prank on me no problem"
i think many guys can understand me when i say horo acted like all women sometimes act..... totally unreasonable and illogical ^^

[Rajura]

To address a multitude of points, I wasn't trying to come down hard on Lawrence... I just mean he's an idiot around Holo... she gives him a chronic case of "the stupids". The girl is that intoxicating. So, I'm not bashing him. I'm sorry I was not clear. He acted in desperation at times as things unfolded... his response was perfectly reasonable.

Being overly hard on Amati, nah... you play with the big boys, you better be willing to pay the price.

I do agree Holo screwed up royally, and I totally agree, seeing her forced to take a more passive role and have Lawrence fight tooth and nail to "win her back" was amazing. Her pride was almost her downfall. But as we see, their relationship and they themselves did mature a bit in this experience!


I never thought about that... her having watched him as he made his yearly rounds... hmmmm... your idea intrigues me! I think she began to really realize she loved him in this volume. But I must agree, if the Side Colors are canon (and I think they are) that is when she began to fall in love.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

FINALLY some1 who thinks that it was horos fault and not lawrence's that all these things with amati happened. In my opinion lawrence isnt at fault AT ALL. Calling him an idiot would be totally absurd. Considering how angry horo was and what she said to him and then even showing him the marriage certificate NOBODY would think "oh yea the girl i m in love with probably pulls a little prank on me no problem"
i think many guys can understand me when i say horo acted like all women sometimes act..... totally unreasonable and illogical ^^

While I do think back and wonder what the hell was running through Holo's mind in some scenes, I'm not willing to write her off as the only illogical/unreasonable one

Lawrence plainly was an idiot at times. Firstly for not being as open as Holo obviously needs him to be (she practically begged him to be more open with her in volume 2, which was a sad and hilarious gender role-reversal). But since his motivations for not being open were partly born from her chipping away at his self-esteem, that only makes them even in my book.

Then he also neglected to pay attention to what he was doing at pretty much any point in the story (but especially when he just casually left the letter for Holo without even reading it.. talk about stupid). And of course, hiding the truth from her for so long, when he clearly had no idea how to deal with breaching the topic.. that could only end in tears unless he could keep up the charade (which he obviously couldn't).

Originally Posted by Rajura

Being overly hard on Amati, nah... you play with the big boys, you better be willing to pay the price.

And he did, didn't he? I doubt he'll ever look at a pretty face the same way, underestimate a scruffy-looking merchant, assume things are what they seem, or be such a pompous ass around the townspeople who make his livelihood possible.

But anyway, I'm tired of playing devil's advocate for a character who I feel got his just desserts. It's not like I wasn't pissed off by his cavalier attitude towards alienating and underestimating everyone.

Hmm.. you know, on an earlier point you made, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lawrence had a complex or fear of being teased, seeing as how everyone in the novels seems to love teasing him every chance the get.. this volume was just him moving from teaser to teaser, and only the kid seemed to cut to the chase and give him the advice (and kick in the rear) he needed.

[Mr. Anime]

Originally Posted by Rajura

I never thought about that... her having watched him as he made his yearly rounds... hmmmm... your idea intrigues me! I think she began to really realize she loved him in this volume. But I must agree, if the Side Colors are canon (and I think they are) that is when she began to fall in love.

i dont know about all these side stories and stuff, can someone summarize briefly what happens in volume 7 concerning the falling in love stuff^^. (volume 10 and 11 are side stories as well, arent they?


@rahura what does WWILF mean exactly?^^
wise wolf I like *cough*?

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

i dont know about all these side stories and stuff, can someone summarize briefly what happens in volume 7 concerning the falling in love stuff^^.

The chapter I mentioned was basically animated as season two's OVA in the anime (episode 0), so if you've seen that you already know what the chapter was about.

Spoiler:

Essentially, after helping Lawrence avoid bankruptcy in volume 2, she falls ill for a couple of days. While he cares for her she comes to realize that she's falling for him.

[tyranuus]

Hehe, it's an awesome episode, absolutely adorable, and not just in a moe-over-the-top-rubbish kinda way.

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

i dont know about all these side stories and stuff, can someone summarize briefly what happens in volume 7 concerning the falling in love stuff^^. (volume 10 and 11 are side stories as well, arent they?


@rahura what does WWILF mean exactly?^^
wise wolf I like *cough*?

Wolf Waifu I'd Like (to)...

[Mr. Anime]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

The chapter I mentioned was basically animated as season two's OVA in the anime (episode 0), so if you've seen that you already know what the chapter was about.

of course i saw it, but the anime doesnt tell u the feelings of larwence or horo like the light novel does. i heard that volume 7 side story from the ova was from horo's point of view, maybe thats why i didnt know^^.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

of course i saw it, but the anime doesnt tell u the feelings of larwence or horo like the light novel does. i heard that volume 7 side story from the ova was from horo's point of view, maybe thats why i didnt know^^.

Well, from what I remember the anime tells you almost exactly what the novel does, all from her point of view. The only things I remember being different are:

Spoiler:

- Lawrence DOES notice that she's sick, he just doesn't realize it's sickness until she's too weak to keep acting "normal" (ie, merely drunk).
- She doesn't describe the "bad dream" she has (I wonder if that was anime-original?)
- Lawrence spoon-feeds her, which is only shown in the opening animation for a split second (sadly)
- In her thoughts she reveals (though it should be obvious) that the "incurable illness" (that she thinks he wouldn't notice her having) is "love".

I'm sure there were others, but those still stick out in my memories since watching and reading those parts many months ago.

[ThunderSt0rm]

Going on that second comment in that spoiler, wasn't that also at the start of the episode after the OVA? (aka season 2 episode 1) You may be right about that being anime-originated.

[snsninja]

Originally Posted by Rajura

Wolf Waifu I'd Like (to)...

Well I got half right
I thought it standed for "Wolf Waifu I love forever"

[Mr. Anime]

was this "incurable illness" thing in her thoughts? i thought she said it to him which meant i thought she was teasing him again, although i think when they tease each other there often lies some truth behind their words (time to rewatch the ova^^)

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by snsninja

Well I got half right
I thought it standed for "Wolf Waifu I love forever"

That one works too... in fact, I think I like it a bit better!

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

was this "incurable illness" thing in her thoughts? i thought she said it to him which meant i thought she was teasing him again, although i think when they tease each other there often lies some truth behind their words (time to rewatch the ova^^)

Here is the bit I meant, though of course it's a fan translation so I don't know how precise it is:

Spoiler:

"Still, even if one were to contract a major illness, one might not be able to easily tell."

"Hm?"

My companion stared at me with widened eyes; but I did not have the graciousness to carry on.

Serves him right for being too dim-witted to communicate with language. An 'affliction' named love.

On the day he noticed, he would probably be terminally ill.

I guess we can say that it leaves things open to our interpretation. She doesn't state the obvious to him, and we don't know whether he "got it" or not (widened eyes could imply that he did).

We certainly don't know how seriously she is taking the thought herself, though it seems as though she's thinking about it because she's realized that she's falling for him - not just bringing it up for the sake of teasing him.

As an aside, the conclusion she draws also makes me laugh a little, because she certainly didn't seem to notice when his time came to be smitten by this "affliction"

[nsmcho]

Of course they both are in love...
But Isuna can't possibly write a happy ending. There is a huge gap between the two lovers' lifespans.
All he could do would be : use magic to make the impossible possible (like...Lawrence becomes a wolf god or Horo becomes human, which would be quite silly...)
Otherwise, there is no way there can be any happy ending.
I think we all agree to say that the problem is their lifespans. Horo doesn't want to see Lawrence die before her in a blink of her eye.
The actual ending will probably be hard to bear for us fans.

[Mr. Anime]

although u are right nsmcho in this special case i would appreciate if the author used a bit of magic, my wish is that horo can prolong lawrence's life with her special ability to grow weat or soemthing like transfering her own life to lawrence or something along those lines, even lawrence becoming a god would be fine even if its a bit farfetched, i ve had enough drama/tragedy endings

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by nsmcho

... Isuna can't possibly write a happy ending. There is a huge gap between the two lovers' lifespans. ... The actual ending will probably be hard to bear for us fans.

There are certainly ways to make it a relatively happy (perhaps bittersweet) ending, if it even needs a full-out ending. I don't think it does.. I think this is the type of "it's about the journey" novel that would be better off not concluding at all.

Except, of course, their trip to Yoitsu, and resolving the most major emotional problems that the characters have. As long as we're left with the feeling that the two can now "choose their own fate, unfettered by old emotional baggage", that would be satisfaction enough and end it on a good note (for the fandom to squee about for all eternity).

I do agree that a hokey ending would be a bad thing, though. The last thing I want is something half-hearted and cliched, after such an intriguing start to the story.