2009-11-06, 12:06 | Link #4121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
My theory is always Kyrie being Beatrice, Maria would not take Rosa as Beatrice. Kyrie was sympathetic towards Maria. As a grownup, Kyrie saw what she was like during childhood, like Maria, she was also dreaming all about witches and magic. In fact, Maria brought back many of the childhood dreams to Kyrie (recall that in the TIPS in EP4 it was said that Beatrice was powerless before forming alliance with Maria). Similarly, their dream were crushed by the teaching of their parents. They were both born under a strict and big family. And Kyrie was supposed to be the head of Sumadera family and received harsh training. She don't want Maria to lose her innocence too soon. Kyrie told Maria she was Beatrice and adopted Maria as apprentice and kept contact with her. In latter time, she knew that Rosa effectively abandoned Maria alone in the home while dating with other men (Kyrie had the ability to deduce it, as what other people who seen Maria buying things alone would have deduced). Kyrie regarded Rosa as a hopeless mother. But at the same time, she knew Maria loved her mother so much but she thought it was an unrequited love. When Rosa torn Sakutarou, she thought Maria was never going to be happy, and after being in 5 family meetings and having witnessed all the struggles and greediness of the siblings, she decided that the whole Ushiromiya family was broken. She promised Maria the prospect of Golden Land and planned all the killing in the context of witch's doing. In the hope that the whole Ushiromiya family would unite together against the witch and regain their love. She indeed hope that someone would stop her, if there is proof that the family is not incorrigible, if someone can give Kyrie some hopes about the family. But Kyrie made a mistake, she thought Rosa would never love Maria back. But indeed what Ange saw in 1998 in captain's house was a proof that Rosa did love Maria (aka. Sakutarou without the neckerchief, as a surprise gift from Rosa after the meeting). That's my theory of Beatrice's motive. And for the happy ending, it would be Battler and the children persuading the siblings into abandoning their competition and distrust, confronting the real Beatrice among them, then the whole family solves the epigraph together and found out what lies in Quadorian. In the end, it was true that even lost love came back. This is my prediction of the ending. Without love, one cannot see the truth. (One of the main reasons why I believe Kyrie as Beatrice is because I think only she could develop deep sympathy towards Maria and appreciated Maria's innocence, while having the ability to devise the whole plan. Jessica and Shannon were both too young.) Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-07 at 01:46. |
|
2009-11-06, 13:22 | Link #4123 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
In fact, you arguing Shannon caring Maria is a better approach than merely demolishing mine, unless you don't think Beatrice cares for Maria. But I wonder which red texts you wanted to refer to, are there any red texts concerning Kyrie at all in EP5? Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-07 at 07:47. |
|
2009-11-06, 23:14 | Link #4124 |
Solve me...
Join Date: Mar 2009
|
I wont entirely place my bet on Kyrie being Beatrice but its possible that she was involved.
And its best not to mention episode 5 stuff here. The only thing im concerned about is that particular event in episode 1. Rudolph said he was going to die to both Kyrie and Battler and Kyrie went up to question him, in the absence of Battler of course. Well, i presume Rudolph would have told Kyrie the reason and being as intelligent as usual, i cant think of any reason why the two of them cant plot together to try to solve whatever problems Rudolph had. Heh, in terms of capabilities, i think that the Rudolph and Kyrie pair is ranked above the other pairs. Both in wits and strength. The weird thing is that, even though Rudolph knew he was going to die and possibly with Kyrie's help, the two still ended up dead. I can only think of two possible scenarios: -Kyrie and Rudolph was not sufficient to counter whatever that happened during that night. -Or... It was on purpose. I can't really imagine the contents of the adult discussion that managed to give Rudolph an impression of his impending death. The only way possible for him to do so would be to get some clues and hints of the happenings. Say maybe seeing a servant hide a gun in the toilet or maybe having Eva personally threaten him. However, the consistency of Rudolph's death at the first twilight seem to favour the latter possibility.
__________________
|
2009-11-07, 00:51 | Link #4127 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
The metaphor being in the line of "Oh man, look at this place. She's going to kill me when she gets home." Or in the same line just spoken to someone else present "I'm going to get killed because of this."
__________________
|
2009-11-07, 02:02 | Link #4128 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Singapore
Age: 32
|
Kaiba, there are too many inconsistencies to conclude there is only ever one single plot; more than likely, there are multiple murderers or circles. The theory of George being the mastermind and Shannon being Beatrice is plausible but it just doesn't make sense in episode 2 and 3. Rosa won't shoot George as long as he can act well enough, which he can if as you said he is the mastermind, he acted splendidly on the twilights that Eva/Hideyoshi died. You say Rosa won't leave the room, what about the toilet? or food? As soon as Rosa turns her back, a swift knock and there you will get the gun. It's also too risky to leave behind one whole group of 'sheep' on their own while you kill the isolated pawns as there's always the chance they catch you in the act; this is something that a murderer with profit in mind(George) would definitely have thought of. Leaving them holed up inside means you're playing a waiting game, which isn't the best idea considering rescue is coming in 2 days.
And you haven't rebutted my counter for your episode 3. Who killed Nanjo? At that point all of your culprits are already dead. George's death cannot be argued really, he died plain and simple, Shannon died the same way as George and Genji was dead from the start. Furthermore, if Shannon was already dead from the start, there was even less reason to kill Genji. Genji is the most useful person, it doesn't make sense to take out your knight after your queen was already taken for nothing. Since this is a murder for profit, you can also expect George to 'make the best moves' unlike how Lamdadelta says Meta-Beatrice plays. |
2009-11-07, 02:47 | Link #4129 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
There is something about how Maria reacts to Beatrice in 2 and 3. In 2, skirt Beatrice is on the board so to speak. Though in 2, one could say Beatrice shows up from time to time as well as Eva-Beatrice. While the later on scenes of Beatrice bringing back Shannon and saving Jessica may or may not be telling, what of the scene with Rosa and Maria when you have both Beatrices?
If Beatrice is suppose to be the family member that found the gold...could not Rosa and Eva be "Beatrice" Or to get even more complex....could Eva, Rosa, and Shannon, be "Beatrice", depending on the event? Remember, just because you are "Beatrice" doesn't mean you are committing the murders. "Beatrice" could be the shield to hide the reason for the killings by taking the blame. In 1 and 3, Shannon is dead at the First Twilight (or at least she's thought to be dead in Game 1). However Rosa is also dead in the First Twilight in Game 1. No Beatrice shows up in the game. In Game 2 Rosa goes on to the end and Beatrice shows up a bit. Shannon dies in one of the later Twilights. In Game 3 we see that Eva and Rosa find the gold. Could Rosa have found the gold earlier? Did she ever have time? There were three bars out in Game 2 rather than Krauss' single bar, meaning whoever set that up had found the gold already. Since Rosa was able to find the gold once...whats to say she didn't before? Game 4 Rosa dies in the First Twilight...of course Shannon is killed not too long after that...seeing how weird everything is. Was it really "Beatrice" that kills Battler in the end of Game 4? Or are there more than one "Beatrice" and thus there is not single woman we can pin that title on? I'm not sure it I'm making sense anymore. Just something about how "Beatrice" kills Maria and Rosa in Game 3 while Eva-Beatrice is there, and Beatrice's comment about how she's not going to be able to keep her promise to Maria.
__________________
|
2009-11-07, 03:27 | Link #4130 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
I suppose Rosa did find the Gold in EP2, but not in other episode. She tried to prove that she found the gold but other siblings won't accept, so she killed them all. My theory as Kyrie as Beatrice could explain why Beatrice mention she could not keep her promise in EP3. The reason is that Maria and all people were supposed to be killed by Beatrice only (from Maria's perspective, she and Rosa were not killed, but brought to Golden Land by Beatrice). But Maria witnessed Eva killing Rosa and was killed by Eva, she had no idea what was going on since Eva was not Beatrice in her mind. So meta-Beatrice said to her she could not kept the promise. I suppose in other episodes (excluding EP2), Maria was killed by Kyrie. The treatment of the body in EP1 was done after killing her peacefully (poisoning as in EP4). As for the reason why she had to treat her body like that, Kyrie could hide her death by crushing all bodies on the island. She left the chin of Maria to remain to let others to be certain about her death, while throwing out the letter-in-bottle hoping someone could solve the mystery which she did not understand in the name of Maria. Holes exist, I guess. But I have not seen other theories concerning the letters-in-the-bottle up to this moment. Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-07 at 03:43. |
|
2009-11-07, 03:34 | Link #4131 |
Solve me...
Join Date: Mar 2009
|
How i viewed the second twilight of EP3:
Although EvaB and Beatrice were both present at the crime scene, I never really considered for two culprits to actually be present when considering the anti-fantasy perspective. In fact, i do not believe for that particular twilight, the presence of Beatrice or EvaB could mean the physical presence of a person. Simply put, i view the *beatrice acting nice* thingy scene as a simple plot development for the metaworld. In the anti-fantasy perspective, I see Eva killing Rosa after an argument over the gold and stranggling Maria afterwards.
__________________
|
2009-11-07, 03:49 | Link #4132 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
The fantasy scenes did reflect partial truth at times. |
|
2009-11-07, 08:09 | Link #4133 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
As Rosa said, Eva would have never found the gold if she wasn't told about that "village of gold", and in fact Kyrie wasn't able to figure out the solution. In the end the ones who solved the riddle were those who understood both reasonings. In conclusion it is quite possible that Rosa never solved the riddle except for Episode3. About the three gold ingots, they can easily be explained if Beatrice has found the gold. Beatrice exists, she claims the gold is her own, and we know she's got access to a lot of money (bank accounts).
__________________
|
|
2009-11-07, 08:13 | Link #4134 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||
2009-11-07, 10:13 | Link #4135 | ||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Singapore
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2009-11-08, 23:36 | Link #4137 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
|
I posted this in in the speculation thread, and was urged to repost it here (on account of being spoiled for episode 5). Take note its not an entirely original theory, just that it seems likely for me as of the moment.
Quote:
As to circumstances: Kanon simply "disappears" in many arcs and has a loyalty to his milady. Nanjo is in a prime position to attend to any medical conditions (such as gynaecologic assessments or pregnancy, if indeed a rape has taken place), not just Kinzo's impending death, which has been proven false anyway (Kinzo was dead all along, so what reason was he there?). Kumasawa has been confirmed to know about Kuwadorian, and if she indeed, as some theorize, was the previous Beatrice and didn't kill herself, would sympathize with Jessica's plight. I also think its important that Jessica's body is never found in many arcs. She is "ripped apart and sent to hell" in episode 1 (a pile of undescernable body parts isn't a body. DNA wasn't around at that point). She simply disappears in episode 3. Episode 2 can be explained by the above theory, as can episode 4. This also does not preclude other murderers taking advantage of events, such as Kyrie in episode 3 or Rosa in episode 2. In these cases, new murderer Y notices murders taking place, and uses the opportunity to commit their own murders (possibly even taking down the original murderers doing so). The alternative being, the original murder group X (under the theory, Jessica, with Kanon, Kumasawa or Nanjo as potential accomplices) sees murders they did not commit, become scared and do no more murders, then are murdered themselves. Or additional murders may simply be caused by panic and fear (which is possible with Rosa in episode 2). Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-09 at 02:27. |
|
2009-11-09, 15:59 | Link #4140 |
...
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Dame da, zenzen dame da na.
Battler = Ange = Kinzo Kinzo = Lie Kinzo = Cake Battler and Ange = Lies, but I'd prefer especially Battler to be a cake Well, I always felt like "How nice, how nice" was said by Beatrice often, but maybe that's just my imagination. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|