[Manga] Naruto Chapter 651 Discussion Thread

[Monster0]

I didn't see anyone one else make a rassengan just Naruto.So they didn't 'do' a rassengan,they just aimed a rassengan.
And i agree that it's all about Konaha the rest of the army could go home.Even the enemies are Konahanians.But i suppose if i was a fodder ninja and this big world ending fight was going on i would want to stick around and watch.What's the point of sitting home and waiting for the results,i know i could killed,but hey that's a ninja's life style.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea, you're forgetting that this is the culmination of what edo-itachi taught naruto. that he cant and shouldnt do everything himself and that he should let his 'team' do some of the 'work' too. but what is happening is not teamwork. it's all naruto and would logically be even more efficient if naruto didn't ask them to join him with it. and on top of that it just makes no sense. they are wearing naruto's chakra cloaks and using his rasengans. it's really just awful on many levels

Personally, I never really saw Itachi's words as being specific to fighting. Madara, Hashirama, Itachi, Nagato, Obito, now Sasuke and Naruto are simply fighting at levels of power beyond what even elite Jounin-level characters can fight. Consequently, having friends on the actual battlefield is more detrimental during such fights than helpful (and considering how many times Naruto has had to save everyone, that is still true). Rather, I felt Itachi's words had more bearing on Naruto's emotional and spiritual state.

Sharing the load with friends, opening your heart to their acceptance, all of this is far more important than what they can do on the battlefield. I felt the culmination of Itachi's statement was more in Naruto revealing his history of heartache and sorrow to the alliance, and then their acceptance, rather than any specific jutsu or technique his friends can accomplish.

Sadly, Kishimoto is trying to ruin the greater more personal message by actually pretending the friends are in anyway an effective fighting force worthy of standing beside Naruto on this battlefield (that's not to say they couldn't have been actually presented that way, but much the same as Kishimoto sucks at writing genius level characters, he sucks at creating alternative methods for survival for non-MCs). Whatever emotional well being they provide him is irrelevant to the very physical fighting going on.

[Midnight Commander]

^This explaination took place when Naruto proclaimed he'd be the one to battle Kabuto and cancel Edo-Tensei, however with perfect timing, his kyuubi cloak fissed out which began Itachi's brief talk. I'm convinced Itachi's words were referring to both physical help as well as emotional bonds. This is why we saw Naruto then trust and count on Itachi to physically deal with Kabuto while he fought with various other ninjas against the Edo-Kages, instead of trying to take on everything alone as he first proclaimed.

As stated in my earlier post, the emotional bonds dynamic is the only one that truely holds any weight and remains consistent. I think one person essentially doing everything is far less exciting than the alternative.

Originally Posted by james0246

Sadly, Kishimoto is trying to ruin the greater more personal message by actually pretending the friends are in anyway an effective fighting force worthy of standing beside Naruto on this battlefield (that's not to say they couldn't have been actually presented that way, but much the same as Kishimoto sucks at writing genius level characters, he sucks at creating alternative methods for survival for non-MCs). Whatever emotional well being they provide him is irrelevant to the very physical fighting going on.

An easy solution would have been to simply have made them an effective fighting force, at least in the same ballpark. I guess its easier and less time consuming to do it this way rather than come up with various interesting techniques. Even Naruto's new powerups as overblown as they are still get complaints of being unimaginative. For whatever reason the author seems intent on having Naruto miles ahead of everyone while still keeping this message of accepting help and teamwork relevant :/

[Artimus_Prime]

ooooh that snap city snap action!

Originally Posted by MadaraXuchiha

Im sure that tree cant take more than 10 massive bijudamas bfore it snaps.

lol sounds like you too have been reading the uchiha stone tablets ...i paid madara for my subscription but they havent come in yet

btw, welcome to the forums

[shalala]

Sano and Kyuubi form looks meh.

[Monster0]

Whenever an artist wants to create something they should ignore anyone trying to influence them.And i'm not talking about inspiration,i'm talking about people looking over an artist shoulder.For example,"why don't you make mono lisa smile ?","why don't you sculpt some arms ?","why don't you write this way instead of that way?"
So if Mr. Kishimoto is letting things that fans say influence what the manga does,that sucks.It's bad enough he has to deal with editors.A good movie producer lets the director call the shots,like wise a good editor should let the writer write(and draw)what they want.So despite my personal feelings if Naruto sucks to you i hope it sucks because of the mangaka and not because of outside influence like fan service and editors.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

An easy solution would have been to simply have made them an effective fighting force, at least in the same ballpark. I guess its easier and less time consuming to do it this way rather than come up with various interesting techniques. Even Naruto's new powerups as overblown as they are still get complaints of being unimaginative. For whatever reason the author seems intent on having Naruto miles ahead of everyone while still keeping this message of accepting help and teamwork relevant :/

That part never bothered me. Naruto is an epic tale, and like all epic tales it is fairly singular in nature. Naruto is supposed to be the one to fix the problems within the universe, whether that be to defeat a specific evil, or reunite some clans, or simply right a previous wrong, it was always going to come down to Naruto's actions and just his actions. Consequently, teamwork as a means of using physical combat to solve a situation, was never a main theme of the series (at least for Naruto). The fact that it rarely if every happened when Naruto was involved should have been a clue that his adventures did not necessitate, or even really facilitate, teamwork.

And yes, I know Kishimoto emphasized the idea of teamwork as early as Chapter 5 or so, but, once more, that idea of teamwork was never really shown in conjunction with physical ability, so I can only assume Kishimoto was always expressing the more emotional and spiritual side of teamwork. Hell, in this chapter when Obito receives a vision of a possible future where he had given up his hatred, there was nothing really shown of any great fights he won alongside his friends, rather it was the simple fact that he had friends that allowed him to overcome his hatred and become Hokage (similar to Naruto)*.

Whatever the case may be, Naruto's strength has never really been an issue for me. His lack of imagination has, and the fact that he still doesn't actually live up to his potential power is also annoying, but his enormous strength itself is fully expected. I do dislike how the alliance has to kowtow to Naruto, but I always expected Naruto to be the one standing in the front leading the charge.

*Is anyone else wondering why Obito seems to have completely erased Minato from his little fantasy?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

*Is anyone else wondering why Obito seems to have completely erased Minato from his little fantasy?

No grown ups allowed...

But I was wondering why Kakashi didn't give that eye back

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

And yes, I know Kishimoto emphasized the idea of teamwork as early as Chapter 5 or so, but, once more, that idea of teamwork was never really shown in conjunction with physical ability, so I can only assume Kishimoto was always expressing the more emotional and spiritual side of teamwork.

we just saw team 10 work in perfect teamwork to destroy a bunch of the juubi clones. what's stopping kishimoto from having the entire alliance be at least of little value in a large teamwork plan to take down obito and madara. it's not like these are normal foes. they are near invincible gods. it wouldn't be detrimental to naruto's character to need the physicality of his allies to fight these monsters. naruto could get the last killing blow, but it could be done as a result of teamwork. he shouldn't be able to do it alone, but his power has gotten so excessive i just roll my eyes now. it's already past the point of no return as far as other characters mattering in the grand scheme of things

[james0246]

^Team 10 fighting no name opponents is not inductive of anything (and as I said in the previous paragraph, I was emphasizing how little teamwork meant to Naruto's story line). In fact the one instance were Shikimaru is given top billing, he uses his team as a distraction in order to defeat Hidan by himself.

Teamwork as a means of defeating strong opponents has almost never been shown in the series. It is either lip-service only, or not meant to be seen as something physically useful during a fight (beyond a moral boost).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Team 10 fighting no name opponents is not inductive of anything (and as I said in the previous paragraph, I was emphasizing how little teamwork meant to Naruto's story line). In fact the one instance were Shikimaru is given top billing, he uses his team as a distraction in order to defeat Hidan by himself.

Teamwork as a means of defeating strong opponents has almost never been shown in the series. It is either lip-service only, or not meant to be seen as something physically useful during a fight (beyond a moral boost).

one person will almost always deliver the final blow. it doesn't have to be a tagteam finishing move like a and b lariats. they don't even have to win. asuma and shikamaru used teamwork when fighting hidan but they lost of course. we just saw in the anime itachi and sasuke use teamwork to beat kabutomaru. i think you're just forcing yourself not to see it in other instances since it doesn't exist right now in the manga with naruto doing everything himself and making the previously impossible possible all on his own

and to your point about mental teamwork, yes of course i agree, but imho itachi's words were meant to mean both physical and mental just as Midnight Commander pointed out itachi 'physically' defeating kabutomaru instead of naruto doing everything. same should apply here or else itachi would have said "do everything on your own and lend those losers your infinite powers so that you could feel better about yourself and get an endorphin powerboost"

[Cookie-Monster]

Its just bad writing. Even a highschool student writing an essay knows that you should not try to "force" ideas when they don't fit well ( No matter how great the idea/quote/argument)

Team-work as a concept is great when it is used logically. It was logical that the former kage's would be able to fight on Naruto's level. So it made sense for them to team-up with naruto and sasuke. The combos with 2nd/4th/Naruto were fantastic, and one of my favorite parts of the whole manga.

But then when you try to force the team-work thing onto completely underpowered characters... it just doesn't make any sense. Obito could fart and kill all Naruto's classmates. It hurts the narrative. It becomes goofy!

[HasuMasu]

I liked the Obito flashback: it reminds me of Light running past himself after getting shot.

Originally Posted by james0246

*Is anyone else wondering why Obito seems to have completely erased Minato from his little fantasy?

I thought the grave they were standing in front of was actually Minato's.

I thought that was it for sure when I saw he wasn't on the mountain, too.

Now I'm not so sure.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by james0246

[...] teamwork as a means of using physical combat to solve a situation, was never a main theme of the series (at least for Naruto). The fact that it rarely if every happened when Naruto was involved should have been a clue that his adventures did not necessitate, or even really facilitate, teamwork.

This is simply not true, all the villages even partition their ninja into teams :/ Teamwork, accepting/relying on help from friends (both emotionally and physically) has always been a major recurring theme in this story whether you're willing to accept it or not; its so pervasive in the manga via physical examples, flashbacks, and actual words its silly to debate over. The real issue here is how this teamwork has been presented recently, as compared to earlier examples.

You cited a good example of teamwork in the form of emotional support, yet there are also examples of the physical type --one of which was mentioned above, that caused Naruto to no longer pursue Kabuto nor proclaim he'd do it "all himself". Teamwork doesn't necessarily have to be applied to the same foe at the same time. I also don't think the small fraction of the chapter you mentioned holds much weight against the overwhelming amount of examples emphasizing teamwork in the manga to claim the manga never shows teamwork in conjunction with physical ability. Teamwork isn't the only moral the author presents to the audience.

I don't expect this manga to feature total teamwork for every single battle or for Naruto to fight the final boss with much of any teamwork at all really, since this is his story. However, when teamwork is trumpeted as much as it is in this manga, I do expect convincing instances of it that make the story interesting considering we've seen them before. Sadly, now everyone is essentially made useless and humiliated in exchange for fanservice. I just don't think this was absolutely necessary.

[james0246]

^Teamwork as a show of force is not actually relevant to the 'friendship is magic' theme of the series (and it almost never occurs with Naruto). Naruto letting Itachi (or whomever) handle mooks (and yes, Kabuto is ultimately a mook in relation to the actual story) does not in any way reflect on any idea of teamwork. Is a private in an army a teammate with a general in the same army? Physically they are on the same team, but they do not really interact, and one is clearly subservient to the other. Naruto has friends, and those friends can accomplish certain tasks without Naruto, but their tasks are ultimately lesser in scale and scope compared to Naruto. Itachi's words need mean nothing more than 'focus on the task at hand, and let your friends protect your back'. No actual teamwork is involved, but the mere presence of friends makes the overall task easier.

Relying on friends is important, and the manga has never disputed that basic theme. But said reliance has never really translated into relying on friends in battle...And I am fine with that. My problem is with their presence in a battle they have no reason to be at to begin with for reasons that make no sense. Kishimoto has never emphasized teamwork for Naruto before, and he has no idea how to do it now.

The difference between Naruto and Obito isn't that Naruto has people that can fight beside him on the field of battle, it is that he has people to fight for period.

(To put it in perspective, teamwork is somewhat like the spirit bomb technique from DBZ. An ultra effective ability that allows the character to utilizes the beliefs, hopes and dreams of a world in order to combat their foes. Naruto has often used the words of friends and the bonds he holds with others as a means of support in his battles. His emotional state makes him powerful (as Kakashi said this chapter), and such a state can only be achieved with the bonds he holds with others.)

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Teamwork as a show of force is not actually relevant to the 'friendship is magic' theme of the series (and it almost never occurs with Naruto). Naruto letting Itachi (or whomever) handle mooks (and yes, Kabuto is ultimately a mook in relation to the actual story) does not in any way reflect on any idea of teamwork. Is a private in an army a teammate with a general in the same army?

itachi is no private. prior to teaching naruto this lesson he just saved both naruto and killerbee's asses vs nagato (who btw was taken out with teamwork involving naruto )

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi is no private. prior to teaching naruto this lesson he just saved both naruto and killerbee's asses vs nagato (who btw was taken out with teamwork involving naruto )

Naruto's flailing against Nagato, while funny, wasn't really teamwork. In many respects it was Itachi who defeated himself (via eye-crow) then went on to seal Nagato.

That being said, even if Itachi was another general (to use my military analogy), he was still expressing a belief in using force to attack different fronts, but not working together ala Kakashi's initial words in the early chapters. Allies are great to have, and in a very general sense of the word they all use teamwork (since they are all on the same team), but the emotional underpinnings we have been mentioning not to mention the sheer power we are talking about is completely different from simply using military forces in specific ways. Naruto does use his friends in a somewhat efficient manner (he gave them tools to combat against the Jyuubi-dolls and the Clum-babies), but none of that is really teamwork like Kakashi was referring to way back when.

It is his friends emotional support that allows Naruto to keep fighting, not their physical support. Kishimoto created an evocative image in this chapter of Naruto combining together with his friends to defeat Obito, but ultimately their actual physical help was not required and the rest of the series has never indicated otherwise. Kishimoto chose an emotional image over an image that actually makes sense within the context of the series...or at least that is how I see this chapter.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Naruto's flailing against Nagato, while funny, wasn't really teamwork. In many respects it was Itachi who defeated himself (via eye-crow) then went on to seal Nagato.

you're forgetting their joint attack to destroy nagato's gravity ball. that was pure teamwork. itachi came up with the plan and then all 3 allies launched their attacks at the gravity ball simultaneously

[Midnight Commander]

I'll just accpet a difference in opinion on what teamwork means and how relavent it is to the story. To me, teamwork is applying a united effort to achieve some objective. This is exactly what Itachi persueded Naruto to do instead of "doing it all himself", as he first proclaimed. And you can call Kabuto a "mook" if you want in terms of his place in the overall story, however he was not a mook in terms of obsticles in this war. The fact is, just Kabuto and his edo-tensei required a significant effort to advance through from the entire alliance; defeating him was a major, and unavoidable priority.

I agree that the rookies and some other characters should not be present in certain scenes, such as the one in this chapter where they did nothing but hold and point Naruto's rasengans. This is the type of fanservice crap I think is unnecessary and comes at the expense of other characters that could be made to do something interesting and useful instead of just being there to glorify Naruto. Not to seem too negative, I did really enjoy the very brief team-7 teamwork as well as the collaborative effort from Naruto and Sasuke now.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi is no private. prior to teaching naruto this lesson he just saved both naruto and killerbee's asses vs nagato (who btw was taken out with teamwork involving naruto )

lol I forgot about this fight. It seemed obvious that Kishimoto was speaking through Itachi at these points in the story, reiterating the mangas morals like teamwork while he was giving Naruto his lessons.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I'll just accpet a difference in opinion on what teamwork means and how relavent it is to the story. To me, teamwork is applying a united effort to achieve some objective.

Agreed. To me, working beside someone is not the same as working with someone. This might seem somewhat rhetorical, but I doubt anyone here would argue that Naruto is a teammate to Joe Schmo former Rock-nin simply because they are both part of an alliance. Rather, it is his close friends that we argue as being teammates, and only then because we know he implicitly trusts them (in-part due to Itachi's words). To put it in perspective, Kakashi's words would have been meaningless oh so long ago if the end result is all that mattered to the equation of teamwork. Naruto has used teamwork throughout the series, but I see it rarely in the form of physical help, which is why I've argued against many of the above posts.