Bleach Episode 284 Discussion Thread

[sayde]

Lets see if I can poke some more holes into this belief.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Its pretty obvious that Stark, Hallibel, Barragan and Uliquiorra were all natural arrancar that were made even stronger by the orb thingy.

We've yet to see any Vasto Lordes as of yet.

Kubo made a hollow strong enough to rule over all of HM as it's King. So the very thought of Pre-Hougyoku Barry being an Arrancar (as oppose to a VL) would either imply that:
-Barry mistook his own evolution from Adjuchas to Arrancar for Adjuchas to VL or
-Barry is so incredibly arrogant and stupid that he would still proclaim himself as the strongest hollow and a King despite knowing full well of the existence of hollows that are stronger than him.

Needless to say, those possibilities aren't very likely IMO. It's also hard to believe he could establish himself as a ruler without having once ever encountered a real Vasto Lorde. Finally it would imply that Vasto Lordes live completely isolated lives. And despite their need to consume hollows, they can remain completely off the radar and that they're perfectly fine being ruled over by beings supposedly weaker than themselves.

Besides, there's no evidence to suggest Aizen was ever able to increase the strength of pre-hougyoku arrancar. In fact, their's evidence to suggest only the opposite. Remember the Privaron Espada? Last time I checked, the only thing that happened to most of these guys after the Hogyoku came into play was their demotion from the top 10. So much for getting stronger.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Her subordinates thinking she was a VL, isn't proof at all.

Yeah. Halibel comes off as such an arrogant egomaniac. So she'd probably never deny false praise and claims of being a VL.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

actually trying to look it up, it seems like it may have just been the top 4
Which for me only screws with the system even more since Grimjow came off as a better Vasto Lorde than Stark or Halibel, and yet he was an adjucas

The databook states the word hotondo which can mean "almost" OR "mostly". And according to the translator on this page
(http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2451952)
the definition "mostly" was admittedly the definition that was likely intended. Of course, that won't stop people who wish to believe otherwise from debating hotondo to mean "almost" instead.

[Kafriel]

I don't see why there's still a VL hype, after seeing:
a) Barragan established as king of HM, and
b) Stark splitting into two after killing piles of hollows with so much as a sneeze.

I mean, cmon, what MORE could new VLs possibly offer to the story at this point? About the episode: damn, it's good to have characters with a backstory! I welcome this kind of episodes anytime.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

My databook knowledge is pretty old but as far as I remember it had the captain commander at 100 power and Aizen at 96 which would make the old man stronger than Aizen.

Yea but it still doesn't matter. Look at how Starrk was taken out. It all depends on the shikai's ability. The top 3 espada are very powerful, but they lost easily for certain reasons

Stark- Didn't a fair shot. Kyoraku's zanpaktou can take out any hollow obviously
Barragan- lost by his own ability to age himself
Tia Halibel- Could have won probably, but of course was killed by Aizen. Toshiro used his strongest attack on Halibel and this is what originally happened.
This not really a spoiler

Spoiler for Bleach NOT MANGA SPOILER this is what the anime alternated:

Halibel actually destroyed that mountain of ice easily with her mere strength

[Baragan]

Hey guys i know this is in the wrong post but does anyone lisa fights lyk ikkaku

[Hov]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

In the end, it really should have been the vizard captains that should have really saved the day... between vizard masks, and their Bankai, they should have had the strength to do what Ichigo did to Grim when he used HIS vizard powers... and that would be fight toe to toe with their released forms.

Thats what I was REALLY hoping for....

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Hov

Thats what I was REALLY hoping for....

The Vizards were the reason why they defeated Barragan, and the reason why Satrrk was caught off guard.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Of course i watched the episode. This is a filler episode, not canon, since her past was never mentioned in the manga.

It's not filler, it is canon. Manga canon =/= anime canon

[Gin]

I just watched the preview for next week's episode, I'm so pumped to see Hiyori in action.

[astrallionheart]

Barragan I can understand, since his abilities are so unique, but there's more or less no indication Halibel and especially Stark are really any stronger than Ulquiorra.

Stark seems completely confused about basic combat maneuvers. Even if he is potentially the strongest arrancar, it certainly didn't manifest itself during combat as his lethargy and apathy limited his combat abilities. You can't rank someone on talent alone--a fighter is the complete package: talent, physical, mental. Stark is mentally weak.

Halibel has to be the slowest Espada of all, not to mention her physical strength is about on par with a shikai captain. Asside from her slow as molasses tidal waves I'm not sure what she has going for her. She doesn't even seem to know she has a cero. It seems to me she's just a stronger Aaroniero (#9).

Based on how these battles ended I bet Ichigo wishes he could face Stark or Halibel instead of Ulquiorra. In particular, Stark's abilities are basically variations of Byakuya's wave attacks and the battle would look like Ichigo vs Byakuya II. It also appears that Stark is a paper tiger (or glass canon) and Ichigo won't have to worry about dealing with Ulqiorra-level Hierro.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

The Vizards were the reason why they defeated Barragan, and the reason why Satrrk was caught off guard.

kinda but not really...
With Barragan, sure Hachi killed him, but in the end he never actually needed his vizard powers... Tensai or anyother shinigami with high level kido could have done the same thing... but ofcourse, i give a pass to this since barry atleast proved that he was damn incredibly by surviving a nuke to the face; and it was a clever way to beat him.

As for Stark... no they didn't... reason stark got hit by that first attack was purely because of the nature of Kyoraku's shadow shikai game. the vizards made no difference at all really... And stark was ultimately taken down because he was apparently too slow to block or dodge Kyoraku's last hit and too weak to survive it...


And really that's the core of the complaint... much like non-vizard fights of IchigoVSGrimjow and IchigoVSUlq, Halibel and Stark should have been practically untouchable to a captain. In their resurrected forms, their power should have been so incredible that none of the captains should have been able to touch them much less deal anykind of meaningful damage. the fights should have been one sided with the SS captains loosing so fast it would make your head spin... It's only when a Captain shows up, supported with the augmenting power of a Vizard mask would they actually stand a chance... Yamaji and Aizen are probably the only captains i might exempt from this

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by sayde

Lets see if I can poke some more holes into this belief.


Kubo made a hollow strong enough to rule over all of HM as it's King. So the very thought of Pre-Hougyoku Barry being an Arrancar (as oppose to a VL) would either imply that:
-Barry mistook his own evolution from Adjuchas to Arrancar for Adjuchas to VL or
-Barry is so incredibly arrogant and stupid that he would still proclaim himself as the strongest hollow and a King despite knowing full well of the existence of hollows that are stronger than him.

He certainly thought he could kill Aizen, if that doesn't make him very arrogant and ful of himself, then what does?

Needless to say, those possibilities aren't very likely IMO. It's also hard to believe he could establish himself as a ruler without having once ever encountered a real Vasto Lorde. Finally it would imply that Vasto Lordes live completely isolated lives. And despite their need to consume hollows, they can remain completely off the radar and that they're perfectly fine being ruled over by beings supposedly weaker than themselves.

Who's to say VL even need to continue feeding once they reach that level? We know virtually nothing about them at all.

Besides, there's no evidence to suggest Aizen was ever able to increase the strength of pre-hougyoku arrancar. In fact, their's evidence to suggest only the opposite. Remember the Privaron Espada? Last time I checked, the only thing that happened to most of these guys after the Hogyoku came into play was their demotion from the top 10. So much for getting stronger.

He never used the orb to create the privaron. So the fact that when he did use the orb, they were demoted because they were just weak...compared to the newer and better arrancar.

Yeah. Halibel comes off as such an arrogant egomaniac. So she'd probably never deny false praise and claims of being a VL.

Yeah except that when Apache made the claim she believed her to be a VL, she was talkin to herself in her mind.

If Hallibel is a VL, then that isn't really saying much about how strong VL are, if they can get their asses handed to them by some wimpy Adjuchus that got a slight powerboost from the orb.

The databook states the word hotondo which can mean "almost" OR "mostly". And according to the translator on this page
(http://bleachasylum.com/threads/1542...=1#post2451952)
the definition "mostly" was admittedly the definition that was likely intended. Of course, that won't stop people who wish to believe otherwise from debating hotondo to mean "almost" instead.

Assuming it is intended to mean what you have claimed, that is as i said before, a massive disapointment to say the least. That would infact be an understatement.

Although it would make sense as to why Stark was perfectly human when we saw him in that flashback, and would account for Barragan's apperance.


Meh. Disapointing...veyr disapointing to say the least...that VL arrancar could be that pitifully weak and beaten that easily. I choose to accept the view that they were close to that level but not quite there...

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Of course i watched the episode. This is a filler episode, not canon, since her past was never mentioned in the manga.

So...what's your point here? They're just expanding on her past for the sake of drawing things out a bit before they really have to go into a non-manga story. Though this flashback would of held more weight if Halibel was more of an important character. Regardless, it doesn't affect the manga story at all.

[Mr.Amazing]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

So...what's your point here? They're just expanding on her past for the sake of drawing things out a bit before they really have to go into a non-manga story. Though this flashback would of held more weight if Halibel was more of an important character. Regardless, it doesn't affect the manga story at all.

I think he is saying that Halibel may not be a vastolorde just because her subordinate called her one in anime-only content.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing

I think he is saying that Halibel may not be a vastolorde just because her subordinate called her one in anime-only content.

Actually Halibel maybe one still. The manga revealed it all differently however Tite still allowed it esspecailly with the Vl thing going on for so long, but this part of the anime can't afford to be wrong. This episode was created to end the discussion of who is a Vl and who is not.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

kinda but not really...
With Barragan, sure Hachi killed him, but in the end he never actually needed his vizard powers... Tensai or anyother shinigami with high level kido could have done the same thing... but ofcourse, i give a pass to this since barry atleast proved that he was damn incredibly by surviving a nuke to the face; and it was a clever way to beat him.

As for Stark... no they didn't... reason stark got hit by that first attack was purely because of the nature of Kyoraku's shadow shikai game. the vizards made no difference at all really... And stark was ultimately taken down because he was apparently too slow to block or dodge Kyoraku's last hit and too weak to survive it...


And really that's the core of the complaint... much like non-vizard fights of IchigoVSGrimjow and IchigoVSUlq, Halibel and Stark should have been practically untouchable to a captain. In their resurrected forms, their power should have been so incredible that none of the captains should have been able to touch them much less deal anykind of meaningful damage. the fights should have been one sided with the SS captains loosing so fast it would make your head spin... It's only when a Captain shows up, supported with the augmenting power of a Vizard mask would they actually stand a chance... Yamaji and Aizen are probably the only captains i might exempt from this

Okay Baragan could have been killed by others, but Hacchi beat Barragan however so that really doesn't say much just because someone else could do the same thing

As for Starrk the FIRST attack had nothing to do with Kyoraku's shadow game. Starrk was caught off guard he had completely forgotten about Kyoraku. Thta is how he was able to seep in

[Mr. DJ]

I'm curious to how he got into Stark's shadow for that attack without Stark knowing o.O

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

I'm curious to how he got into Stark's shadow for that attack without Stark knowing o.O

caught off guard

[sayde]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

He certainly thought he could kill Aizen, if that doesn't make him very arrogant and ful of himself, then what does?

If thinking one could kill Aizen makes someone arrogant in Bleach, then that means the same could be said of every protagonist in this war. For Barry, killing Aizen was a goal -- a goal he obviously knew he wasn't yet ready to achieve. The only reason he tried to anyways was because he was in the middle of dying. So he might as well. I'm not sure how any of that makes him even more arrogant.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Who's to say VL even need to continue feeding once they reach that level? We know virtually nothing about them at all.

So you admit to knowing "virtually nothing about them" but yet somehow you know the top 3 couldn't have been VL's? Ok, but seriously we do at least know two things for sure
1.) They have humanoid forms
2.) They're clearly stronger than non-arrancar adjuchas.
Coincidentally enough, the top 3 espada have all been shown to match these two descriptions perfectly.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

He never used the orb to create the privaron. So the fact that when he did use the orb, they were demoted because they were just weak...compared to the newer and better arrancar.

I feel like you missed my point. So instead, I'll pose a question to you. Can you please provide evidence that proves Aizen used the hougyoku on arrancar that existed before the time he started making them himself? Or better yet, please prove either Hallibel, Barry, or Stark were already Arrancar prior to meeting Aizen. Because all the evidence points to the contrary.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Yeah except that when Apache made the claim she believed her to be a VL, she was talkin to herself in her mind.

Fine, I'll humor you. Let's simply assume the story writers decided to throw that line in there strictly for the lulz with no real intention behind it. Now lets try to explain how her strength was in league of it's own compared to all the other adjuchas lvl hollows we saw. Lets also try to explain the humanoid form only she, Barry, and Stark possessed.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

If Hallibel is a VL, then that isn't really saying much about how strong VL are, if they can get their asses handed to them by some wimpy Adjuchus that got a slight powerboost from the orb.

Assuming it is intended to mean what you have claimed, that is as i said before, a massive disapointment to say the least. That would infact be an understatement.

Although it would make sense as to why Stark was perfectly human when we saw him in that flashback, and would account for Barragan's apperance.


Meh. Disapointing...veyr disapointing to say the least...that VL arrancar could be that pitifully weak and beaten that easily. I choose to accept the view that they were close to that level but not quite there...

It would hardly be the first time Kubo did this though. I know I've brought this up several times before on these boards (so those of you who've seen this point already, try and forgive me), but there was a time when Rukia stated that a "lone shinigami cannot oppose" a gillian. She was terrified of the thing and thought only a team of elites could take one on. She didn't even give us the impression that she herself could defeat one even if she had her full powers back. But yet later on, she proceeds to defeat opponents many times stronger than a Gillian by herself.

Notice the two things these situations have in common though is that both Rukia and Hitsugaya were going by hearsay only. Neither one of them had ever encountered either a gillian or a vasto lorde prior to speaking about it. All they had to go on were rumors of things Kubo himself hadn't even finalized the details on at the time. So is it possible for the VL's strength to be greatly exaggerated? You bet it is.

[secretzfan]

So you admit to knowing "virtually nothing about them" but yet somehow you know the top 3 couldn't have been VL's? Ok, but seriously we do at least know two things for sure
1.) They have humanoid forms
2.) They're clearly stronger than non-arrancar adjuchas.
Coincidentally enough, the top 3 espada have all been shown to match these two descriptions perfectly.

Wait the top 3 espada do succeed captain's level because Ichigo is at captain's level and wouldn't be able to beat them. In truth the arguement of Vl goes as afras saying that Ulquirra is a Vl as well. So it is actually top 4.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

caught off guard

the problem with him supposedly being caught off guard was that it pretty much happened when he touched the ground...Shunsui would of needed time to actually get in the shadow if I'm judging that power correctly...

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

the problem with him supposedly being caught off guard was that it pretty much happened when he touched the ground...Shunsui would of needed time to actually get in the shadow if I'm judging that power correctly...

I don't see how touching the ground really mattered he still didn't see it comimg either way you look at it.