[PC/PS3/360/WiiU] Mass Effect 3

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Larthak

Funny discussion you have here. But...no matter what we may think, they can't show Quarians' faces. They had their last chance in ME2 where we actually saw more than a single Quarian, we got to explore the species as a whole. Not to mention the fanbase! The fascination with Tali is like a thriving cult, there's too many fans out there that could potentially rage. A LOT.

If Tali fans are not prepared to be fans of who she really is, rather than what they imagined her to be, then they are NOT Tali fans.

This happens in real life fandom of movie stars, where fans of an actor become disappointed when the real human behind the silver screen isn't the same as the fictitious role he played. But if that's what they think, then I can genuinely argue that they are no fan at all.

Let them be disappointed. They have only themselves to blame to build up a fantasy for themselves. Bioware have the responsibility to give Tali the same fair treatment as every other character in the show.

[Larthak]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If Tali fans are not prepared to be fans of who she really is, rather than what they imagined her to be, then they are NOT Tali fans.

Let them be disappointed. They have only themselves to blame to build up a fantasy for themselves. Bioware have the responsibility to give Tali the same fair treatment as every other character in the show.

The problem with Quarians is that Tali fans actually do love her as she was meant to be. The mystery is part of the charm AND the original character design; the face was nothing but a smudge, nobody in Bioware knew how they really look. It's just now they might actually make a few sketches and decide as a team what the race should look like. It's like estabilishing Ian McKellen as Gandalf in the first LOTR movie and then switch over to Sean Connery in the rest for no apparent reason.

Or think of it like talking about the God. There's two interpretations of God; one that says he has no form, that he is all that is divine, then there are all the paintings with an old bearded man protecting his flock, that came after. If a believer doesn't like the way a God is universally portrayed by artists around the world, does that make him an inferior believer?

Anyway, Bioware might pull it off if they decide to show Quarians. There's always a chance they hit that sweet spot. At least I believe they did so in Shadow Broker's case. That DLC was amazing, including Broker's visage and background story. It's just that they could also horribly screw up. All I'm saying.

[synaesthetic]

I was gratified to hear we'll see more of the yahg in ME3. Gotta love a race that can rip a krogan in half and get higher test scores than a salarian.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Larthak

Or think of it like talking about the God. There's two interpretations of God; one that says he has no form, that he is all that is divine, then there are all the paintings with an old bearded man protecting his flock, that came after. If a believer doesn't like the way a God is universally portrayed by artists around the world, does that make him an inferior believer?

If a believer doesn't like the way the character creator portray the character, then yes.
We are not talking about fan artists here. We are talking about Bioware. The creators of the entire universe.

For all intent and purposes Bioware IS God. So yes, to tell your God to the face that you don't agree makes you a non-believer.

There is nothing wrong with being a non-believer; just don't pretend you are still fan of Tali if you don't actually like her for what she is. Fantasies are fantasies; at some point a fan has to face the truth. And decide if the fanaticism is based on solid foundations, or on shifting sand.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I like Tali, just wish she was possible for a femshep relationship, but meh she's stuck with my male shep. I like the personality she has it's cute, and while the mystery is nice I'm quite sure Bioware will be able to please most people. I'm fairly sure they'll give her a pleasing face. TBH for comparison, I find the Asari to be quite severe to look at - statuesque, more then beautiful. I'm quite curious if they'd go for something... softer with the Quarians. Either way, to me, Tali is great because she is an enjoyable person with an interesting personality weather I see her face or not - rather then the usual femme fatals floating around.

[james0246]

I don't really see a reason to reveal what the Quarians look like under their suits. If you make them too alien, you'll piss off part of the fans, and if you make them too human, you'll piss off other fans. Consequently, it is in Bioware's best interest to simply leave the Quarians up to the fans imaginations.

That being said, I always thought Quarians would somewhat look like the Geth (or vice versa). Both species bear striking similarities (similar leg designs, and similar hands), and since the Geth are the "children" of the Quarians, it stands to reason that they were built in part to look similar to a Quarian.

[Mr. Wang]

Bottom line is, I think that you can't please everyone. It's plain and simple.

For me? I don't care. To me, the charm and personality of Tali will carry her through. And I think that's what matters.

And to be honest, I'm not actually giving myself high expectations on what-ifs, on how Bioware would portray a Quarian with a face. But I certainly wouldn't mind being surprised. That said... I'd still like Tali either way, faceless or no.

While she's behind the mask, I think that her mystery is a small part of her charm. If you see her behind the mask, then perhaps it's gratifying to be able to see who she really is, and... well, I can imagine her making some cute facial expressions too. All-in-all, I personally like to associate Tali with... being cute. Not the mask that hides her.

All that being said though... sheesh, there's enough posts here to make a "Should Tali'Zorah Have a Face or Not" thread. The post-count for this thread would be cut in half if that was done...

[Larthak]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If a believer doesn't like the way the character creator portray the character, then yes.
We are not talking about fan artists here. We are talking about Bioware. The creators of the entire universe.

For all intent and purposes Bioware IS God. So yes, to tell your God to the face that you don't agree makes you a non-believer.

There is nothing wrong with being a non-believer; just don't pretend you are still fan of Tali if you don't actually like her for what she is. Fantasies are fantasies; at some point a fan has to face the truth. And decide if the fanaticism is based on solid foundations, or on shifting sand.

Ugh, I'm sorry but you completely misunderstood my point about God and disregarded anything else I said.


But let's stick to what you just described for a while:

If it is ultimately decided, that we see how Tali looks in ME3, the soon to be Quarians' faces never existed in the first place. That was the will of "God", Bioware (as you called it that way). So some of the fans, or by your definition, the non-believers by that time, didn't like the idea of a Quarian's face being nothing more than a few blurry pixels. And demanded a change. Those that didn't want to conform to the God's will, not the God himself (just like in Femshep's case). Now, just because Bioware may appeal to those, that want a definitive face for the alien race and a big reveal, it makes those former non-believers the actual true believers and fans of Tali? Or in other words, you call fans that accepted the former look of Quarians pretenders? What the hell...

The longer I debate with you, the more I think you belong to the group of people that must have a definite end to every movie or television series that was ever made. If not, please prove me otherwise and I shall apologize. But I'm not going to argue with someone so close-minded, if my observation is valid. Never understood why people can't just use their own imagination for once. As if open endings are in any way inferior to concluded ones.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Larthak

Ugh, I'm sorry but you completely misunderstood my point about God and disregarded anything else I said.


But let's stick to what you just described for a while:

If it is ultimately decided, that we see how Tali looks in ME3, the soon to be Quarians' faces never existed in the first place. That was the will of "God", Bioware (as you called it that way). So some of the fans, or by your definition, the non-believers by that time, didn't like the idea of a Quarian's face being nothing more than a few blurry pixels. And demanded a change. Those that didn't want to conform to the God's will, not the God himself (just like in Femshep's case). Now, just because Bioware may appeal to those, that want a definitive face for the alien race and a big reveal, it makes those former non-believers the actual true believers and fans of Tali? Or in other words, you call fans that accepted the former look of Quarians pretenders? What the hell...

The longer I debate with you, the more I think you belong to the group of people that must have a definite end to every movie or television series that was ever made. If not, please prove me otherwise and I shall apologize. But I'm not going to argue with someone so close-minded, if my observation is valid. Never understood why people can't just use their own imagination for once. As if open endings are in any way inferior to concluded ones.

I guess this is because we see things from different angles. You see Tali as someone who doesn't have a face. And as such if she gets given one then she isn't Tali anymore.

But I see Tali as an individual. A fictitious person, but still an individual. And I consider it a travesty to tell an individual to never take her mask off because you hate to see her face. What is she, Phantom of the Opera? My empathy forbids me to consider it an option to treat Tali like a non-entity.

Yes, this is just a game. But since it is serious enough for us to argue about whether a game character should have a face or not, I consider it serious enough to debate Tali's rights as a game character to show her face in public. Tali shouldn't have to walk around with a paper bag over her head because some people don't want to know her.

[synaesthetic]

No, but if she walked around without a helmet on her head she'd get sick and die...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

No, but if she walked around without a helmet on her head she'd get sick and die...

I full on intent to get a Geth-Quarian peace deal going. And all things considered the bonus goal is to give Tali her home planet back so she can breath fresh air.

This means, of course, that her face would be visible. Which would be another bonus.

[synaesthetic]

If you listened to what Tali said in the first two games, you'd know that's not possible. Even if they recover their homeworld from the geth, they've been living on the sterile, micro-organism-free Migrant Fleet for far too long.

It'll take them a long time to re-adapt to the conditions on their homeworld. Tali will be long dead by the time that happens.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Then Shepard promptly dies because when he takes HIS helmet off he can't breath the atmosphere. Poetic justice indeed. lol.

[Cub-Sama]

If showing Tali's face completely ruins the character then the character probably isn't all that great then, if 1 very stupid mystery such as what does she look like is all that makes a character interesting or likeable then Bioware hasn't done a very good job.

I for one want to see Tali's face

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Then Shepard promptly dies because when he takes HIS helmet off he can't breath the atmosphere. Poetic justice indeed. lol.

Actually, no. He wouldn't die. But he WOULD contaminate the area and caused a bio-hazard emergency that would require several months of clean-up.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I was making a joke. @_@.

But him causing an epidemic isn't as amusing though.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

I was making a joke. @_@.

But him causing an epidemic isn't as amusing though.

I remember someone saying we would get to visit the home planets of the major races in ME3? Assuming we are going to get a Geth-Quarian peace deal option, we almost certainly had to visit the homeplanet at least once.

Pity we can't drive around anymore so we can explore it. I actually rather like the Mako once I figured out how to control the damn thing.

Interesting that it is confirmed we have the power to influence species politics this time. Finally, a way to make a real difference. But of course those who are sadistic would definitely try to see if they can get every race extinct. (Like that guy who found a way to kill every ally in ME2 except one and still finish the game by killing one of them at the post-game. The game bugs out at the ally selection screen afterwards because it waits for you to choose the 2nd ally who doesn't exist.)

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Thats hilariously harsh. Mmm xenophobic galatic conquest for human kind hoooo.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Thats hilariously harsh. Mmm xenophobic galatic conquest for human kind hoooo.

Of course, what might be the most interesting choice in ME3 could be choosing to save the Batarians. Since we are going to have to deal with the Arrival incident anyway.

Maybe we have to run a military intervention, aid the uprising, and cause a Batarian Spring? The background explained that the civilians are not evil, it's just that their government is corrupt.

And then maybe we can deal with the Slaver problem.

[Larthak]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I guess this is because we see things from different angles. You see Tali as someone who doesn't have a face. And as such if she gets given one then she isn't Tali anymore.

But I see Tali as an individual. A fictitious person, but still an individual. And I consider it a travesty to tell an individual to never take her mask off because you hate to see her face. What is she, Phantom of the Opera? My empathy forbids me to consider it an option to treat Tali like a non-entity.

Yes, this is just a game. But since it is serious enough for us to argue about whether a game character should have a face or not, I consider it serious enough to debate Tali's rights as a game character to show her face in public. Tali shouldn't have to walk around with a paper bag over her head because some people don't want to know her.

Indeed, she's worth the talk. I think I understand what you're trying to convey here and I respect that. At least a lot more than the oversimplification of Tali's fandom you talked about earlier. I'm not trying to bash you for everything you say.

I don't necessarily say Tali doesn't have a face rather than being content with the fact that we might never see it. I'm okay with both options, to be honest...if done properly. It's just that Bioware "managed" to screw up a whole another series with a sequel, that's why I'm really afraid of Quarians being shown...I don't want another half-assed marketing ploy, something that sells before the consumer finds out how horribly the execution went. You see, there's a DA2 box behind my back that taught me how I should always be skeptical, no matter who the developer is. Publishers' involvements are downright scary these days.

Seriously, what can sell more than "You might see what Quarians look like!". Half the people will automatically assume it as a fact and a reason enough to buy ME3 if they had any doubts at first.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say we can both agree Tali's awesome no matter what's behind the mask and if it's shown or not. It's her estabilishment in the series, her voice actress, the Geth bodycount she leaves behind and her history with Shepard/crew that made her this popular. The face would just be an icing on a cake by now. A very welcome one for a large chunk of the fandom.