2013-01-16, 17:36 | Link #62 | |
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You saw how much scrap metal his girls had to gather for him, and how much time it took them while Black Lotus kept the enemy busy. When Kingbolt is dueling by himself, how is he supposed to find the time to do that? Balancing the difficulty of the move would require making the robot SO effective that it's practically an I Win button. Which boils his every fight down to "Can I gather a big enough pile of scrap metal while someone is trying to kill me, and when they will most likely try to scatter whatever pile I create?" If he succeeds, it's a foregone conclusion. |
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2013-01-17, 00:05 | Link #63 |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
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Well, considering he had the best longe-range firepower until Scarlet Rain came along, the difficulty in gathering scrap metal is probably the balancing thing. Just like Rain, who is only equipped with a pistol outside of her Immobile fortress mode.
Well, Rain has it easier. Unless Kingbolt teamed up with Orchid Oracle to change the stage to the Weathered stage all the time, he probably had to find some other ways to win. You wrote that about Yellow Radio, right? |
2013-01-17, 06:22 | Link #64 |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
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I was on a spree today; watched the OVA as well, when this came to mind:
Could Megumi have been playing one of the other acceleration-based games? The wand that her avatar is holding is ridiculously Meruru-ish, and the hairstyle is just like that mysterious girl in the OVA. Furthermore, if KYH and gang can play other acceleration games without much trouble, it's not hard to think the reverse is possible. |
2013-01-17, 15:51 | Link #65 | ||
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Granted, Rain has never had a reason to move her Fortress or attempt to physically strike someone with its bulk or limbs... And it does have ventral thrusters which are presumably meant for increasing speed... But we've never seen it happen, either. However (unless I misremember that fight) we do know the Mega-Machine is capable of physically grappling with a Legendary Enemy. I'm willing to imagine the robot is fast, reasonably agile, and capable of delivering powerful blows. If nothing else, the Mega-Machine can use its hands and greater flexibility to pull off any smaller opponents that grab on. Quote:
At the same time, she's two levels higher. But maybe CriKin is punching above his weightclass by hobbling his mecha with such a conditional restriction? |
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2013-01-18, 01:10 | Link #66 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
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That said, maybe an alternative idea is that the level of the Mega-Machine Crikin can create is limited by the amount of metal he can gather? Depending on your subber, the line he says is "The amount of metal you can gather determines the outcome of this fight." So perhaps he forms a small machine, a medium machine, and the Mega Machine, increasing his firepower and ability with each form. |
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2013-01-28, 22:07 | Link #67 | ||
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Indeed, if Scarlet Rain chose to sink all of her bonuses into long-range firepower, which is already the hallmark of her color, that suggests she could have chosen something un-Red-like. Therefore, Brain Burst allows you to invest in abilities outside of your color's specialty. But those abilities are going to suck unless you invest further bonuses into them. That only makes sense, right? You can choose to generalize your avatar, but it's an uphill climb. Bonuses that fit your color's specialty may not be any stronger, but they're building upon the foundation that's already there. So Haruyuki could have chosen to give Silver Crow a ranged attack, but given the game's balancing engine, the darts would have been rather whimpy. Low damage, low accuracy, low rate of fire, poor range... He could theoretically win a fight by shooting people from the sky, but I bet it would have taken him a long while. Ultimately, no single upgrade would ever be more effective than his default specialty of dive-bombing strikes. The only use for the darts would be to mix up his strategy and be more unpredictable. |
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2013-01-29, 10:25 | Link #68 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Spoiler for Taku's better-adviced choices:
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2013-01-29, 11:22 | Link #69 | |||||
オレンジ色の王
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From volume 6, chapter 3, Quote:
That's really because according to the light novels, cyan is blue with a slight hint of purple. |
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2013-01-29, 11:31 | Link #70 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
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Edit: However, of course Dusk Taker broke this rule with his OP move. But hopefully he's just an exception. |
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2013-01-29, 20:35 | Link #71 | |||
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I'd sure like to know what other options he had. Splash Stinger seems pretty solidly useful, but I'd like to know what options he had for upgrading the Pile Driver or Cyan Lightning Spike. The bonus spent to purchase Spiral Gravity Driver was clearly a mistake, though there's really no reason why an alternate application of his first special attack should be so much worse than his first basic attack. It's not known what he spent his other two bonuses on before the start of the show. He might have upgraded his avatar's armor or some other parameter, or perhaps reduced the SP cost of his special attacks. Your quotation lacks context. I don't know who's talking, or whom he's talking to, or whom he's talking about. Quote:
It might be possible to "spec" your avatar in a crappy way, but I'd say it has more to do with how you use what you've got. But there are definite advantages to specializing in just one thing, especially when you team up with other specialists. I imagine that was Graphite Edge's idea, and it's a good one. Part of Takumu's problem was trying to depend too much on himself, rather than making friends. So he spread his avatar's potential out, rather than focusing it. Of course, the other benefit to specializing in just one thing is forcing yourself to get REALLY good at it. Maybe not every problem is a nail, but when all you have is a hammer, you WILL learn how any possible way that a hammer can be used to fix your problems. And it's going to be the best damn hammer in the world, because of all of the bonuses you've sunk into it. Look at Black Lotus, who forced Yellow Radio to fight in a way that he sucks at because he could NOT risk her getting in one good shot with those blades-of-instant-death. Quote:
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2013-01-29, 21:59 | Link #72 | |||
オレンジ色の王
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Cyan Pile and his Splash Stinger made me realise that if you plan and carefully select just one, weak bonus that is of a different affinity than what you currently want your avatar to specialise in, you afford yourself a slight versatility, which actually gives you an edge over an avatar that has had pure specialisation in most situations. If, for example, Pile were to be set up against a pure close-combat avatar, he could spear the guy as he was coming up close to get in range. Having gone through 4-5 levels with his pile driver, he should have decent enough aim to spear most average speed avatars. Now, if he didn't have Splash Stinger, he would have no choice but to close the range and the opening attack would have simply been just that, an opening attack. However, since he does have Splash Stinger, he can use it and bombard his opponent constantly, smashing a few elements while doing so to keep his gauge up. Opponent trying to break your spike? Shoot his hands. Opponent pulling himself closer towards you by pulling along your spike? Retract and draw again, this time, pushing your feet off the ground so you use your opponent as an anchor, thus using the pile driver's power to propel yourself out of range. Yes, the battle might be slow, but Cyan Pile has an almost 100% chance of winning, having forced his opponent out of his comfort zone and rendering him powerless, as in focusing on a single affinity, he has neglected other affinities. Also, note that this does not take into consideration any of the other moves Pile currently has, and also doesn't count the possible level up bonuses he could have had if he had specialised only on his pile driver and chose Splash Stinger as a contrasting ability. |
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2013-01-29, 23:13 | Link #73 | ||||||
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All avatars are equal, and all choices for upgrade are equal, but not all Burst Linkers are equal. Success depends on who you are and how well you can use what you have. Quote:
If someone is using tactics specifically designed to defeat his ability to dive-strike from the sky, using a different tactic like sniping from the sky might throw his opponent off. And Crow could switch back and forth between the two strategies to keep his opponent guessing. But to really make that work, Crow would need to practice and gain experience with using the ranged attack, which is time and effort not spent mastering his flying and strike skills or developing ways to deal with counter-tactics against his dive-bombing. Quote:
If Pile walks backward (and jumps backward between shots), he increases the time available before his opponent catches him, and therefore also the number of shots he can fire. Quote:
While the Pile Driver's extending strike is fast (and its range may be unexpected), if the opponent properly anticipates and dodges it, Cyan Pile is vulnerable until the spike retracts, and unable to fire another shot until it does. Cyan Pile can recover his defense faster after using Splash Stinger, whether to fire another volley, or to close up his chest plates and either retreat, dodge, block or fire off the Pile Driver. Splash Stinger's volley of spikes is also more likely to hit a target, making it a good weapon against small, agile targets like Silver Crow. Meanwhile, the Pile Driver remains the better weapon to use against large, heavily-armored targets like himself. Really, if there could have possibly been a better choice for Cyan Pile than Splash Stinger, I'd love to hear it. But it would really help him out if he could swap out Spiral Gravity Hammer for a normal sword, or some other method of improving his face-to-face combat ability. |
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2013-01-29, 23:36 | Link #74 | |||||
オレンジ色の王
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I doubt that option would be available to him, though, as I think the system wanted his avatar to be centered around his pile driver. This is the fact that Pile had been banking on which prevented Taker from stealing his pile driver. Giving him another weapon would be like giving Roller another ride. |
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2013-01-30, 06:22 | Link #75 | ||||||
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Besides, Scarlet Rain has two weapons. She presumably started with that sidearm, and then invested bonuses into building the Immobile Fortress. |
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2013-01-30, 07:07 | Link #76 | |||||
オレンジ色の王
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But you yourself said that Splash Stinger, an move that affords Cyan Pile considerable versatility, was the best level up bonus Pile could have chosen. While the darts for Silver Crow, for example, might have taken quite a while to finish the opponent, it still offers the advantage of having a higher certainty of bagging the win. Quote:
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Rain's gun is probably an Enhanced Armament that she found. Her name refers to the rain of death and destruction that she fires from her Immobile Fortress, which is also in line with her desire of trying to protect herself from the world. Nothing says "Go away." like a giant fortress raining bullet hell on you. The system has no control over which direction your avatar develops, so there is definitely a reason why she was named that in the first place. |
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2013-01-30, 15:28 | Link #77 | ||||
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I think you've been misunderstanding me for a while now.
I have been saying that Duel Avatars can be generalized by choosing bonuses which do not fit inside the specialty of the avatar's color. AND I have been saying that it's not necesssarily better or worse to do so. There are clear advantages and disavantages to both paths. AND I have been saying that specialization within your specialty is (generally) the better path when you are teaming up with other specialists, like the Elements of the Black Legion did with each other and Kuroyukihime. Possibly also what the Seven Kings of Pure Color did before they hit Level 9. They might have teamed up together to crawl the UNF's various dungeons. Finally, I have ALSO been saying that one of the things which determines the success of a generalist or specialist is the Burst Linker. Quote:
I said that it was a great choice, and that I would really like to know what his other choices were and how they could be better. Maybe Splash Stinger IS specializing in his chosen strategy (mid-range piercing attacks) rather than a deviation. And that's the other mistake: While Splash Stinger is different from Extending Jab, it's not THAT different. It's still a mid-range piercing attack. A truly diversifying bonus would have been the sword I mentioned. Quote:
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What about Blue Knight's original sword? How many bonuses did he sink into that before he got the Impulse? How do you think the game handles this? Do you just have to take the risk that you'll never simply FIND a better weapon? Quote:
*Perhaps a more modest form of Heat Blast Saturation? Even as a Level 1, Rain might have rained down fire on her enemies through rapidfire shots or an orignal special attack that enabled rapid fire. |
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2013-01-30, 20:55 | Link #78 | ||||||||||
オレンジ色の王
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Last edited by Orange Duke; 2013-02-10 at 12:24. |
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2013-01-31, 08:11 | Link #79 |
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If my words have been ambiguous or unclear, I apologize. I have been trying to be clear.
I disagree that generalizing or specializing impacts the efficacy of the avatar. All avatars and bonuses are equal. It's the users and situations that imbalance the odds. Spiral Gravity Driver sucks because of author error. As I've said in Taku's thread, an attack like that should be Instant Death. Cyan Pile muddies the issue about choosing bonuses outside of one's color specialty, since his initial abilities seem somewhat outside of it. One can pretend he's on the purple side of Blue, but his official position (and the color cyan) are on the green side. But yes, just as Silver Crow could choose a ranged attack, I believe Scarlet Rain could have improved her close combat ability in some way. Perhaps a mecha more like the Mega-Machine, which has hands and therefore fists. If you look at those pictures of Cyan Pile, you will notice that his stance is different. In the first, he is leaning forward, turning his chest away from the Pile Driver. In the second picture, he is leaning back, bracing the Driver against his chest. Likely, the first stance is risky, reducing balance and accuracy to extend his range. Since it's for the basic attack, he can better afford to miss, and the range is not so long that another foot of reach would be pointless. Likely, the second stance is intended to control the recoil of the Cyan Lightning Spike, retaining balance and accuracy for a shot that already leaves him vulnerable and absolutely needs to hit. Either way, he can't use the Splash Stinger. The first stance would fire off target. Though, if an enemy happens to be approaching from that angle... Given your fair point about Rain, it is possible that her original special attack was some more modest form of Hailstorm Domination. Perhaps she always had some form of missile launcher, but one that needed SP to use? Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2013-01-31 at 08:21. |
2013-02-02, 14:19 | Link #80 | |||||
オレンジ色の王
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Unfortunately, that also means it does not prove your point. Comparing Crow to Rain also makes your point invalid, as the distinction we are discussing is between metal and chromatic avatars. Quote:
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It could just be that he has a habit of varying his stances or he uses the first stance in an enclosed space, while the second in an open area. This also means he could learn to get used to the first stance so that he is able to use Splash Stinger simultaneously. |
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