Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[jeroz]

Kyoko: "why do you think this is the place?"
Homura: "statistics"

[Mentar]

This episode answered alot of questions, but at the same time raised several new ones. I don't know about you, but I need to sort my thoughts first before I could try to properly put the new clues together.

So, for now, just a couple of lines from this episode for review (because in this script, no line is wasted, and _repeated_ lines can be considered extremely important)

1) Sayaka said that happiness and despair balance themselves out in the life of a MG. The happiness she brings on one end causes despair on hers. If this is true (and it was a repeated line), just think what it would mean to a particularly _powerful_ girl like Madoka who'd try her hardest to help others. It must be living hell.

2) We get positive confirmation that Madoka is Homura's total priority. Not merely from preventing her from contracting, but also to protect her from pain and anguish. If you combine this with a former line of hers - that MGs only fight for their one wish, their one hope - it's reasonable to conclude that Homura's wish must have something to do with Madoka aswell. And Homura's outburst towards Madoka proves that she's not merely a "friend". She explicitly talked about people who _love_ her. People like Homura.

3) We see Homura tensing up when Madoka's memory block seems to be weakening (the dark static effect). Combining this with her reactions from earlier episodes, I consider it essentially proven that Homura and Madoka _did_ know each other from before. So why did Madoka forget? Which leads us to another question: Why does Homura refrain from telling Madoka the truth? After all, it's clear that Homura is extremely well-informed, down to the site of the Walpurgisnacht.

My gut feeling indicates that the current timeline might have played out in the past before, and Homura has done just what she is trying now before: Maybe in earlier iterations, she has told Madoka the truth, but Madoka didn't believe her (remember the scene from ep7 where she gave Homura the same explanation? "People" didn't believe her). So this time she's trying to prevent Madoka from contracting WITHOUT prematurely spilling the beans.

Assuming that QB isn't lying outright (I'm inclined to grant him that), then Madoka is a gigantic prize for him to contract. Homura tried to intimidate Madoka away WITHOUT revealing the truth to Madoka, and it had almost worked had not QB scored Sayaka to drag Madoka back in. And Madoka's nature might very well cause her to sacrifice herself open-eyed to help others (this is what caused Homura to despair this ep - I think she has seen it happen before).

Pretty fascinating stuff. Well then, Homura. Time to spill the beans

[ninryu]

Spoiler for ep 8:

OH GOD, OH GOD. I just can't believe it. Sayaka f*ckin' turned into a witch! Confirming my suspicion witches are made of despair. And her Soul Gem looked so corrupted..

Homerun is confirmed as coming from the future as a lot of us expected, and Kyuubey is confirmed as pretty much Mephisto, or Incubator, as he called. Damn it, he ate his own corpse!

I have no idea who's poorer - Homerun, Sayaka or Madoka. And Kyouko, too for losing her only friend.
Homerun not only showed us more emotions than dissatisfaction but also actually cried!
So many things happened, but this episode feels too short.

It all goes from bad to worst; if this anime have a bad ending, I'm canceling my marriage form to Urobuchi.

I love this anime - the art, the animation, the script, the screenplay, the voice acting, the OST - everything!

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

@Mentar these analyses that you do are really helpful. XD they help in clearing things out and sparing us from going brain-dead with all these hints. XD i very much appreciate your effort. XDD thanks for sharing them. XDD

[Jimmy C]

This may seem to be a trivial observation after all the revelations, but I note that when Homura tossed the Grief Seed to Sayaka, it landed on its round side, rolled a bit, then stood up on its spike.

[erneiz_hyde]

"Just Watched This, Not Putting A Single Glance on What The Forum is Discussing Now" Mode

Spoiler:

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHA.wav

This episode is ^&*$@*($&)!&) AWESOME.

Zetsubou-Sensei will go "DESPAAAAAIIIIRRRRRRR~~~!!!!11111" a hundred times over after watching this lol~~!!! XD

And it turns out Puella Magi (or Mahou Shoujo) really was a wordplay for "young witches" as someone here pointed out somewhere sometime earlier.

It turned out QB really is the source of the problem, or perhaps at least he's a tool for furthering the plans of an EEEEEVIL MASTERMIND XD

Omg I have so many to say but too excited to actually type 'em anymore. Expect Rapid Downfall to The Abyss starting next episode! (well, duh, we only got 3/4 more episodes, right?)

OK, to cool down, I think I'm gonna play some game. Huffff, it's been a while since I'm this excited.

Edit: Wait, what? Why is Kaijo banned???

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

On second thought, isn't anyone even slightly perturbed at the fact that while Madoka asked Homura calmly why she "killed" Inkyubeytor, after their emotional discussion Madoka seems to have forgotten the dead body beside her, the wish she was about to give it, and walked away to find Sayaka?

Well, what was Madoka suppossed to do there?

It's not like she could call the cops on Homura for killing Kyubey.

So, aside from her initial strong protestations against Homura for killing Kyubey, what else was she suppossed to do or say?

From Madoka's perspective, Kyubey is now dead, so the earlier course of action (saving Sayaka through becoming a magical girl) is now closed off to her (or so she thinks).

Homura's emotional breakdown in front of Madoka likely perplexes Madoka more than anything, and so since there's no apparent anwers to be found in this scene of death and despair, Madoka leaves to find Sayaka, consistent with her initial ojbective to save Sayaka.

While Madoka does come across as considerably idealistic, there's also a certain practicality to many of her actions and assessments. She has idealistic hopes, but that doesn't mean she's delusional at all about the current situation facing her (which is, after all, precisely why she didn't become a magical girl earlier - Mami's death showed Madoka that there's a clear and present danger to becoming a magical girl, at least through Kyubey contraction).


Consider this exchange (going by Nutbladder's subs) -

Kyubey (to Madoka): You must blame me too.

Madoka: If I blame you, will that bring Sayaka back?


That's actually a very mature and practical approach for Madoka to take. Why waste time blaming others if no practical good will come from it?

Originally Posted by Kanon

Glad you liked the episode.

Thanks.

I had a feeling you would. The flawless execution and the emotions conveyed in this episode easily trumps the predictable turn of events.

I've always liked an anime with a theatrical element to it, and I see a lot of elements of good theater in this anime. Somewhat similar, even, to what I saw in The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya movie.

I'd like to praise the muscial score as well. It's wonderful as expected from Kajiura Yuki. I can't wait to get my hands on the soundtrack.

The musical score is great, yes.

Random pointless comments:
[LIST][*]I loved the look of Homura's room. Surreal and beautiful.

The area in which Homura and Kyoko held their discussion was indeed very captivating and pleasant to the eyes.

[*]I enjoyed Chiwa Saito's performance a lot. The breakdown scene was perfect thanks to her.

All of the seiyus in general did very well in this episode.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Pretty fascinating stuff. Well then, Homura. Time to spill the beans

Presuming that Homura tried to change the timeline before, only to have her revelations to that timeline's Madoka fall on disbelieving ears, then it's understandable for Homura to take a more secretive approach this time.

However, Homura is now at a juncture where she really does need to make the big reveal(s) to Madoka, imo.

The reason being that there's no particular reason for "new" Kyubey to not track Madoka down, and offer to contract with her again. Once he does so, Madoka will see that he's not dead, and likely start to agree to his offer again, as I don't think that Homura's purely emotional plea managed to dissuade Madoka's willingness to sacrifice herself for Sayaka's sake.

Homura's only recourse at this juncture may indeed be to spill the beans to Madoka.

[msg]

Love the fact that QB is making fun of the creatures called girls at the end there..
naiveity at its finest.

and are those girls listening?...nooooo.sigh

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, what was Madoka suppossed to do there?

It's not like she could call the cops on Homura for killing Kyubey.

So, aside from her initial strong protestations against Homura for killing Kyubey, what else was she suppossed to do or say?

From Madoka's perspective, Kyubey is now dead, so the earlier course of action (saving Sayaka through becoming a magical girl) is now closed off to her (or so she thinks).

Homura's emotional breakdown in front of Madoka likely perplexes Madoka more than anything, and so since there's no apparent anwers to be found in this scene of death and despair, Madoka leaves to find Sayaka, consistent with her initial ojbective to save Sayaka.

While Madoka does come across as considerably idealistic, there's also a certain practicality to many of her actions and assessments. She has idealistic hopes, but that doesn't mean she's delusional at all about the current situation facing her (which is, after all, precisely why she didn't become a magical girl earlier - Mami's death showed Madoka that there's a clear and present danger to becoming a magical girl, at least through Kyubey contraction).


Consider this exchange (going by Nutbladder's subs) -

Kyubey (to Madoka): You must blame me too.

Madoka: If I blame you, will that bring Sayaka back?


That's actually a very mature and practical approach for Madoka to take. Why waste time blaming others if no practical good will come from it?




Thanks.



I've always liked an anime with a theatrical element to it, and I see a lot of elements of good theater in this anime. Somewhat similar, even, to what I saw in The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya movie.




The musical score is great, yes.




The area in which Homura and Kyoko held their discussion was indeed very captivating and pleasant to the eyes.




All of the seiyus in general did very well in this episode.




Presuming that Homura tried to change the timeline before, only to have her revelations to that timeline's Madoka fall on disbelieving ears, then it's understandable for Homura to take a more secretive approach this time.

However, Homura is now at a juncture where she really does need to make the big reveal(s) to Madoka, imo.

The reason being that there's no particular reason for "new" Kyubey to not track Madoka down, and offer to contract with her again. Once he does so, Madoka will see that he's not dead, and likely start to agree to his offer again, as I don't think that Homura's purely emotional plea managed to dissuade Madoka's willingness to sacrifice herself for Sayaka's sake.

Homura's only recourse at this juncture may indeed be to spill the beans to Madoka.

Well the typical reaction would be "OMFG SHIT EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!" tough I presume she's just so desensitized at this point. One would presume that she'd actually be a bit MORE concerned because as far as she's concerned, Inkyubeytor's contract was her last resort to help Sayaka, and by killing him Homura just took away her last known method for rescuing her friend. She didn't even get angry or even flinch.

Actually the tone of her voice as she lethargically pulled herself away to find Sayaka sounds like she's in a complete otherworldly daze.

[SagaraSouske]

Why doesn't QB just forcibly create MGs. Find a girl with potential and just ripe her soul out and turn her into MG without giving any wishes then let her know her role after. Of course there won't be any story for the show but it doesn't seem like having to have consent from the girls make any sense given his goal. Unless someone else put the system and rules in place and he is just executing it.

[Phyris]

OMG, I love this anime so much....I love it so much it hurts! I was worried about the "Kyuubey is the antagonist" bit, but they did it so well in this episode. I am gonna have nightmares after I had to witness him eating his own corpse...So that's why he never opens his mouth! Damn you, you self-cannibalising Incubator!

And as for Sayaka. Seems like death at the hands of Homura would have been a much kinder fate than having her turn into everything she has been fighting for the last few episodes. What I especially love about this anime is that they use foreshadowing in such a dedicated manner. We suspected from episode 3 onwards that magical girls can turn into witches if they don't purify their soul gem, but the writer really kept us guessing until the very end. I prefer intelligent and consistent story-telling over constant curveball-throwing/trolling and WTF-plot-twists simply for the sake of them. Urobochi uses his plot twists wisely and that makes us appreciate them so much more.

So Homura is from the future after all....or well, that's the logical assumption, seeing as she knows exactly when and where the Walpurgisnacht is going to happen. How would she be able to know that if she is from the past? But what is her relationship to Madoka? They must have been/are going to be pretty close if Homura would literally do ANYTHING (e.g. killing Sayaka) to protect Madoka from Kyuube's meat-grinder. There is still the possibility that Homura actually used her wish to get Madoka out of the Puella Magi business. I mean, seeing as Kyuube was actually going to fulfil Madoka's wish to free Sayaka, it seems a likely possibility.

God I wish it was next Thursday already!

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by scr

What if Homura's reticence isn't due to poor communication skills, but due to having tried million times and failed? Kind of, like, Rika from Higurashi. Makes me wonder about just _how_ many iterations have happened.

Well it could definitely be like that. Though I guess what we're seeing here is proof that if you give up on being open with those you care about then bad things will happen. Can understand her giving up if she wasn't believed in previous attempts, but obviously being vague and not completely honest hasn't been working out great either.

I do wonder how things are going to work out since it's not looking good for anyone. Madoka seems bound to make a wish sooner or later especially when she finds out Sayaka's current condition. Don't know if QB's wishes can handle that, but who knows. Homura's blown the trust she had with pretty much anyone. Could easily end this showing a worst case scenario with Madoka making a wish, turning into a witch, and the whole world going down. Might also be able to partially salvage this situation. Suppose it's also possible to show a terrible scenario in 13 episodes then second season another Homura time travel attempt where things go better.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Why doesn't QB just forcibly create MGs. Find a girl with potential and just ripe her soul out and turn her into MG without giving any wishes then let her know her role after. Of course there won't be any story for the show but it doesn't seem like having to have consent from the girls make any sense given his goal. Unless someone else put the system and rules in place and he is just executing it.

I'm guessing he's restricted in some way. While QB hasn't been honest about a lot he did mention that there were rules. Maybe he has to get the girls to agree to do it and can't just force it.

[Jimmy C]

Or maybe, without a wish, he can't call upon the power to rip their souls out.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Well the typical reaction would be "OMFG SHIT EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!" tough I presume she's just so desensitized at this point.

Desensitization is no doubt a factor. More than that, though, I think that Madoka is simply confused and perplexed, and hence not angry.

Homura's emotional breakdown is probably hard for Madoka to pick much sense out of, but even then, Madoka must now be able to tell that Homura cares about her and hence Homura's actions were taken to help Madoka. And so that likely calms any anger in Madoka's heart against Homura.

Also, Madoka simply doesn't tend to get angry, or at least not for long. For example, many girls in her position would have simply hated Kyoko for how Kyoko approached Sayaka in their first encounter a few episodes back. Madoka, instead, argued for diplomacy and for Sayaka to reason things out with Kyoko.

There really is a less than average amount of malice in Madoka's heart.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Kyoko: "why do you think this is the place?"
Homura: "statistics"

Yeah that was LOL worthy, especially after she answers with her stare aka "don't ask"

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

GAHH!! waiting for episode 09 is a torture. DX

[musouka]

Man, Homura...what a pathetic, disgusting excuse for a person she is.

I understand why she took the course she did. She was obviously close to Madoka in some sense in her timeline--not willing to jump on lovers quite yet--and thus understands that Madoka is most likely to martyr herself for the sake of others. Homura doesn't want to be one of the people Madoka feels like she she has to "save" and unduly influence her to become a magical girl. This means she purposely cultivates a distant air so that Madoka won't become close to her and, hopefully, won't care if something happens to her.

Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her? Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself? You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by musouka

Man, Homura...what a pathetic, disgusting excuse for a person she is.

I understand why she took the course she did. She was obviously close to Madoka in some sense in her timeline--not willing to jump on lovers quite yet--and thus understands that Madoka is most likely to martyr herself for the sake of others. Homura doesn't want to be one of the people Madoka feels like she she has to "save" and unduly influence her to become a magical girl. This means she purposely cultivates a distant air so that Madoka won't become close to her and, hopefully, won't care if something happens to her.

Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her? Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself? You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.

A bit harsh there, isn't it?

True, Homura's obsession with keeping Madoka safe is a bit focused on Madoka. She should go the Touma route and 'protect the world she lives in.'

That said, while Homura's attitude irritates me from time to time, I can feel pity for her. Her methods may be wrong, but she's trying.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Endscape

She should go the Touma route and 'protect the world she lives in.'

Nah, that's too idealistic. I don't think Homura has it in her to be selfless like that, but I do wish she would cut the shit and just be honest for once. It certainly might have helped her in protecting Madoka.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by musouka

What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura?

Well let's check
i) Is her family still alive?
ii) Are some of her friends still alive?
iii) Could being a witch worse than dying?

Yes, yes, Homura is terrible