AnimeSuki Forums

Wolfenstein · 2013-02-21, 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalala

Also what would have happen if Zen's kick would have landed on Iihiko?

Shiranui would've died, and Iihiko would try to absorb some other body.

Make no mistake, Zen's plan was very risky, he was counting on Iihiko being desperate to stop him from attacking(why he had to give away his arm).
Fortunately for Zen, all that "Understanding" and "Communication" payed off - he can even understand Iihiko's actions.

DawnEmperor · 2013-02-22, 16:22

Here's how I'd sum up Zenkichi's character.

"At the end of the day, the downtrodden can still band together with other downtrodden others. And the gifted can succeed in their unique ways and have their unique struggles. But who are you? You're just a regular person. What good can you really do? What goal can you really aspire for? Do you merely subordinate yourself to this greater cause, to your selfish desires?

You're just this insignificant being...surrounded by struggling...and you can't run away. And so, you have no choice, but to understand, what makes these people tick. Because really, they're not far away from you in some ways. Really, they can't fit into such simple categories of "downtrodden, losers" vs "gifted people". Not everyone wants to be rescued, and not everyone has the will or ability to save another person. But inevitably the web of relationships will have you interlocked as you wade through them and build your own.

You may never be the very best or the very worst at something, but you can always try to know what it is to be the best and the worst. You aren't infallible, and you can be selfish. You may have that one person you devote your life to, or the single cause you subordinate yourself to in such a straightforward fashion. Maybe out of unwavering faith, maybe not. But you are always building towards something with an eye for reality, for what can help you understand yourself."

Guernsey · 2013-02-22, 16:53

Is that a song or poem?

DawnEmperor · 2013-02-22, 17:41

Nope, literally just came up with it, sort of rambling

Guernsey · 2013-02-22, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

Nope, literally just came up with it, sort of rambling

That makes sense. I was kind of rambling out loud yesterday. Zenikichi will always be the normal guy in manga and he will always be the half assed sidekick someone else's story. No doubt Nishio is gonna somehow make his latest victory meaningless. While it may not have any meaning to us, it did have meaning to Zenikichi as he was able to save his friend from the monster Iihiko.

Homura7 · 2013-02-22, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guernsey

That makes sense. I was kind of rambling out loud yesterday. Zenikichi will always be the normal guy in manga and he will always be the half assed sidekick someone else's story. No doubt Nishio is gonna somehow make his latest victory meaningless. While it may not have any meaning to us, it did have meaning to Zenikichi as he was able to save his friend from the monster Iihiko.

Just like with the election, right? Geez, those complainers and their paranoia...

Lupus753 · 2013-02-22, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo

Just like with the election, right? Geez, those complainers and their paranoia...

No, they meant just like the Jet Black Feast. Then again, the greatest thing about paranoia is that you're much less disappointed if it happens.

Homura7 · 2013-02-22, 19:22

^The Jet Black Fest started with Zenkich taking the spothlight while Medaka stayed in the sidelines till the very end of the arc. In this arc it happened all the opposite.

Soji · 2013-02-22, 19:25

Kurusu@Is just that people are never satisfied.

Honestly I think this arc become better that i aspect and the last ch was one of the best in a long time.
Then again everyone have their own opinion and is fine like that.

Thth · 2013-02-22, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guernsey

No doubt Nishio is gonna somehow make his latest victory meaningless.

You mean something like Zenkichi expires due to time limit. Then Fukurou does something ridiculous etc. etc. and takes Shiranui anyway, hence she is no longer saved. (Rendering Zenkichi's battle meaningless)
Oh, before that, Fukuro also reveals that he could have defeated Iihiko anytime and just watched for some random cooked up reason.(completing the meaninglessness)
Then Medaka uses a new Super mode, Beginning God Mode and saves not only Shiranui, not only saves the rest, but also saves Fukurou and Iihiko as well, and converts them to boot.

Sounds like ridiculous fan-fiction, eh, but i wont be surprised one bit if somthing similar happens which renders the present chapter completely worthless

SoloPanda · 2013-02-22, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thth

You mean something like Zenkichi expires due to time limit. Then Fukurou does something ridiculous etc. etc. and takes Shiranui anyway, hence she is no longer saved. (Rendering Zenkichi's battle meaningless)
Oh, before that, Fukuro also reveals that he could have defeated Iihiko anytime and just watched for some random cooked up reason.(completing the meaninglessness)
Then Medaka uses a new Super mode, Beginning God Mode and saves not only Shiranui, not only saves the rest, but also saves Fukurou and Iihiko as well, and converts them to boot.

Sounds like ridiculous fan-fiction, eh, but i wont be surprised one bit if somthing similar happens which renders the present chapter completely worthless

It's like it was preordained!

Homura7 · 2013-02-22, 19:56

Fukurou isn't even there anymore. The kanji on his tongue reads "Leave Behind"

The battle is over and all that's left to see is if Shiranui came unscathed of that strike or Nienami is the one and only survivor.

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-02-22, 19:59

Honestly the last chapters was one of the few chapters that provided an insight into why Nisio decided to press the story the way he did, many of us may not have agreed with it (I definately didn't), but it was one of few points were I started to get an understanding into why. E.g devil style beyond character quirks and shounen crap why did Zenkichi decided to choose that skill, why does Zenkichi so vehementally dislike using skills in general. Well you can say it was in partly due to his decision in regards to his father, he decided not to blame his mediocrity on others or run away from those exceptional people but he also decided to embrace his mediocrity or rather who he is, that means rather than simply accepting and coming to terms to special people he wanted to come to terms with them as he was, not to transform himself into an exceptional person through there power as that would be the same as regetting himself and admitting that any person he could hope to become through his own hard work to be worthless in comparison to those indivduals basically being like his father.

Medaka's marysueness and Zenkichi's losses also play into that, he is faced with and sees a person who shines his medicority like a star in the sky and intern everyone he's is surrounded by are more exceptional than he is, for which all all the things he achieves pale in comparison. Due to his "mediocre" self he sometimes doesn't always make a meaningful contribution to an arc, he is saved often is always second often last fiddle, but he perservers bettering himself so that he can prove that he as he is, is not a worthless indivdual, that undependent of your inborn skills personality traits you can be proud of who you are in comparison to anyone, through the work you put in, whether it be through understanding or anything. My two cents

The purpose of Medaka's character beyond this I have no idea though I can guess Medaka wasn't supposed to be the most relateable character.

Homura7 · 2013-02-22, 20:08

It helps the reader make a contrast with both protagonists.

Tenchi Hou Take · 2013-02-22, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo

It helps the reader make a contrast with both protagonists.

I understand contrast, but I'm talking about defining character purpose what concept is the character expressing, if she was simply a side character contrast alone would probably be enough, but considering she's been the focal character for the majority of the manga, I don't have the remotest idea of what that is. I understand she loves humans in general but why, and how does that play into the greater purpose of this manga. I suppose considering Medaka's "inhuman" nature she's not supposed to be relateable or perfectly understandable but whats the point why are we following her adventures. I like to see a greater purpose in regards to the main characters as well as the story as a whole and Medaka is pretty much a giant question mark. Hopefully Nisio expands on this in a reasonably satisfying way.

Guernsey · 2013-02-22, 21:20

Medaka has been the biggest mystery in the whole manga, just what goes on inside her head? The current did give us some insight into Medaka's character when she was in the dream world with her mother. While most of us cannot relate to Medaka, there are some people that do. I know this user in the TVTropes forum who relates to her although not in competence, he relates to her in sense that he is someone who is what we tropers call "Inteligence Equals Isolation". Medaka is like an extreme version of a gifted child or at least that is what the manga presents her as.

ccie20012 · 2013-02-22, 21:31

Quote:

^The Jet Black Fest started with Zenkich taking the spothlight while Medaka stayed in the sidelines till the very end of the arc. In this arc it happened all the opposite.

IMHO This is not true. He made important - admitted Medaka in love.
Thereafter win the battle only a technical problem.
As in each arc - he did what Medaka could not do myself.
For a variety of reasons.
I think the purpose of the manga show how strong pair Zen + Medaka.
It would be foolish to oppose them - they complement each other.

Sol Falling · 2013-02-22, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccie20012

IMHO This is not true. He made important - admitted Medaka in love.
Thereafter win the battle only a technical problem.
As in each arc - he did what Medaka could not do myself.
For a variety of reasons.
I think the purpose of the manga show how strong pair Zen + Medaka.
It would be foolish to oppose them - they complement each other.

Haha. The kind of narrative that exists only to portray "look how awesome/correct/powerful this [insert idealized concept/moral/character] is" is the most completely basic/shallow form of fiction possible, because by nature in the end all fiction is nothing but the conveniences of an author. I believe Nishio is better than that; a brainless, black and white, self-promoting narrative doesn't fit into his post-modern sensibilities.

The kind of story you are describing ("look how strong [etc.] is!") is the stuff of archaic, small-minded, ancient literature. Nowadays you will only find that kind of story being written in the realm of trashy escapist fantasies like fanfiction. There is no difference between a story which says "Medaka is the strongest" or "the pair of Medaka and Zenkichi is the strongest"--either would just be a trashy narrative about some kind of "Mary Sue".

Anyway, the point of Medaka as a character is to show people the mindset of somebody a bit higher-minded. Although realistically speaking, her ideals, goals, and expectations ask a bit too much of normal people, by recognizing Medaka as human we come to realize that those ideals/goals/expectations might actually not be impossible. Medaka basically represents ambition; being greedy about the potential of both yourself and humanity.

Yes, Medaka is important as a point of reference for Zen's story (not blaming others/accepting your own mediocrity; trying hard/believing in yourself anyway). But she also acts independently as a point of reference for anybody in general. Most of the beliefs/ideas/attitudes Medaka holds, regardless of being unrealistic a lot of the time, are nonetheless very interesting.

Wolfenstein · 2013-02-23, 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thth

You mean something like Zenkichi expires due to time limit. Then Fukurou does something ridiculous etc. etc. and takes Shiranui anyway, hence she is no longer saved. (Rendering Zenkichi's battle meaningless)
Oh, before that, Fukuro also reveals that he could have defeated Iihiko anytime and just watched for some random cooked up reason.(completing the meaninglessness)
Then Medaka uses a new Super mode, Beginning God Mode and saves not only Shiranui, not only saves the rest, but also saves Fukurou and Iihiko as well, and converts them to boot.

Sounds like ridiculous fan-fiction, eh, but i wont be surprised one bit if somthing similar happens which renders the present chapter completely worthless

Please don't jinx it.

.

Guernsey · 2013-02-23, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Please don't jinx it.

.

Only time will tell.

2013-02-22, 16:53	Link #12223
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Is that a song or poem? __________________

2013-02-22, 21:20	Link #12236
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Medaka has been the biggest mystery in the whole manga, just what goes on inside her head? The current did give us some insight into Medaka's character when she was in the dream world with her mother. While most of us cannot relate to Medaka, there are some people that do. I know this user in the TVTropes forum who relates to her although not in competence, he relates to her in sense that he is someone who is what we tropers call "Inteligence Equals Isolation". Medaka is like an extreme version of a gifted child or at least that is what the manga presents her as. __________________

2013-02-22, 16:22	Link #12222
DawnEmperor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Somewhere	Here's how I'd sum up Zenkichi's character. "At the end of the day, the downtrodden can still band together with other downtrodden others. And the gifted can succeed in their unique ways and have their unique struggles. But who are you? You're just a regular person. What good can you really do? What goal can you really aspire for? Do you merely subordinate yourself to this greater cause, to your selfish desires? You're just this insignificant being...surrounded by struggling...and you can't run away. And so, you have no choice, but to understand, what makes these people tick. Because really, they're not far away from you in some ways. Really, they can't fit into such simple categories of "downtrodden, losers" vs "gifted people". Not everyone wants to be rescued, and not everyone has the will or ability to save another person. But inevitably the web of relationships will have you interlocked as you wade through them and build your own. You may never be the very best or the very worst at something, but you can always try to know what it is to be the best and the worst. You aren't infallible, and you can be selfish. You may have that one person you devote your life to, or the single cause you subordinate yourself to in such a straightforward fashion. Maybe out of unwavering faith, maybe not. But you are always building towards something with an eye for reality, for what can help you understand yourself."

2013-02-22, 17:41	Link #12224
DawnEmperor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Somewhere	Nope, literally just came up with it, sort of rambling

2013-02-22, 19:22	Link #12228
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	^The Jet Black Fest started with Zenkich taking the spothlight while Medaka stayed in the sidelines till the very end of the arc. In this arc it happened all the opposite.

2013-02-22, 19:25	Link #12229
Soji Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Europe	Kurusu@Is just that people are never satisfied. Honestly I think this arc become better that i aspect and the last ch was one of the best in a long time. Then again everyone have their own opinion and is fine like that.

2013-02-22, 19:56	Link #12232
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Fukurou isn't even there anymore. The kanji on his tongue reads "Leave Behind" The battle is over and all that's left to see is if Shiranui came unscathed of that strike or Nienami is the one and only survivor.

2013-02-22, 19:59	Link #12233
Tenchi Hou Take Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Honestly the last chapters was one of the few chapters that provided an insight into why Nisio decided to press the story the way he did, many of us may not have agreed with it (I definately didn't), but it was one of few points were I started to get an understanding into why. E.g devil style beyond character quirks and shounen crap why did Zenkichi decided to choose that skill, why does Zenkichi so vehementally dislike using skills in general. Well you can say it was in partly due to his decision in regards to his father, he decided not to blame his mediocrity on others or run away from those exceptional people but he also decided to embrace his mediocrity or rather who he is, that means rather than simply accepting and coming to terms to special people he wanted to come to terms with them as he was, not to transform himself into an exceptional person through there power as that would be the same as regetting himself and admitting that any person he could hope to become through his own hard work to be worthless in comparison to those indivduals basically being like his father. Medaka's marysueness and Zenkichi's losses also play into that, he is faced with and sees a person who shines his medicority like a star in the sky and intern everyone he's is surrounded by are more exceptional than he is, for which all all the things he achieves pale in comparison. Due to his "mediocre" self he sometimes doesn't always make a meaningful contribution to an arc, he is saved often is always second often last fiddle, but he perservers bettering himself so that he can prove that he as he is, is not a worthless indivdual, that undependent of your inborn skills personality traits you can be proud of who you are in comparison to anyone, through the work you put in, whether it be through understanding or anything. My two cents The purpose of Medaka's character beyond this I have no idea though I can guess Medaka wasn't supposed to be the most relateable character.

2013-02-22, 20:08	Link #12234
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	It helps the reader make a contrast with both protagonists.