Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion (second reincarnation)

[Comartemis]

This is inaccurate. The Cradle of the Saint King is a reverse-engineered Lost Logia. If they only discovered this later, how in the world did they get to ride this one?

Standard-issue dimensional transfer magic coupled with persistent teleport points set up in major cities throughout the empire. The trip between dimensions is extremely draining for those who can't do it by themselves, so waystations need to be created every so often between longer teleport points for people to be able to stop and rest.

Either that or the Belkans just kept their tech knowledge to themselves after winding up in Mundus Magicus; no sense giving your biggest advantage away to the locals when there's no guarantee that advantage won't be used against you, right?

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by comartemis

Either that or the Belkans just kept their tech knowledge to themselves after winding up in Mundus Magicus; no sense giving your biggest advantage away to the locals when there's no guarantee that advantage won't be used against you, right?

There is every guarantee it will eventually be used against you. So whether you share with the locals or not, you better be improving your tech for the day you have to use it against your "friends". Even if you don't share, just the fact that you have advanced tech will be an incentive for them to improve their own. Eventually, you won't have a tech advantage anymore either.
Now that I think about it, you teleport waystation idea actually makes things worse. They won't be stranded after the Empire collapses, unless something wrecks the teleport network so bad that they can't go anywhere. Otherwise, they'll just pack up and leave Earth for a more civilized planet after the Empire dies.

[Comartemis]

There is every guarantee it will eventually be used against you. So whether you share with the locals or not, you better be improving your tech for the day you have to use it against your "friends". Even if you don't share, just the fact that you have advanced tech will be an incentive for them to improve their own. Eventually, you won't have a tech advantage anymore either.

That assumes the Belkans don't just assimilate into the local culture rather than try to become a small nation-state arrayed against several much larger and much more powerful magical nations... a wise course of action given that not every single Belkan is a combat-ready knight. Mundus Magicus has shown itself to be the home of many powerful magical warriors and creatures; the Belkans don't stand much chance on their own against the locals, and instead of trying to assert themselves, simply fade into the background. Whichever Belkan royal gets caught up in the transfer somehow catches the eye of a noble of the kingdom of Vespertatia, and the Belkan bloodline gets passed down the line until Asuna eventually receives it. It's this same bloodline that eventually retraces their steps back to Earth and opens up Mundus Magicus to the Terran mage community, thus turning Nanoha canon into a fused Negima/Nanoha 'verse.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by comatermis

a wise course of action given that not every single Belkan is a combat-ready knight. Mundus Magicus has shown itself to be the home of many powerful magical warriors and creatures;

Oh, you've moved to Negima's Magical World now, eh? If you're using the outpost-on-Earth-shoved-to-Mundus-Magicus idea, why didn't the personnel just report back to the Empire? Why should they be stranded there? Then, after staying on that world for millenia, why go back to Earth instead of the Belkan capital? Didn't they have "no interest in the rest of the planet" in your own words? They have no attachment to Earth, their descendants would have even less.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Standard-issue dimensional transfer magic coupled with persistent teleport points set up in major cities throughout the empire. The trip between dimensions is extremely draining for those who can't do it by themselves, so waystations need to be created every so often between longer teleport points for people to be able to stop and rest.

The problem here is that the Belkan magic system doesn't have standard dimensional transfer spells, the only way for Belkans to transfer through dimensions would have been to use ships. This makes a pre-magitech Belkan Empire rather impossible to have been widespread across dimensions.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The problem here is that the Belkan magic system doesn't have standard dimensional transfer spells, the only way for Belkans to transfer through dimensions would have been to use ships. This makes a pre-magitech Belkan Empire rather impossible to have been widespread across dimensions.

Didn't Vita use a dimensional transfer spell when she escape from Nanoha? Unless, of course, we're assuming that's an Ancient Belkan spell and not standard for common use.

[Keroko]

Dimensional Transfer
Transfer magic used to teleport to another dimension. Not a typical Belkan spell, it appears to have been specially implemented by the Guardian Knight System.

Anyway, about the fusion of Negima and Nanoha, the biggest problem seems to be that earth is noted to have no magic civilization in Nanoha. Now the question is: What constitutes as no magic civilization? We know that 'no magic' doesn't mean zero magic (Nanoha, Hayate and Graham prove this) so what would make a world be labelled as having no magic population?

According to Chao, the Negima mage population is 67.000.000 mages, only roughly 1% of the total world population (currently estimated at just over 6.68 billion), and she is unclear whether this is referring to mages living on earth, or total mage population both here and Mundus Magicus, in which case the 'detectable' percentage of mages would become even lower. Now, I am one of those who chooses to believe that worlds like Mid have a very high mage population, around 50%, if not more. Compared to this, a world with only 1% of mages (all of whom avoid detection at all cost as well), this would seem like a world with no magic civilization.

My personal fusion has the TSAB and Earth mages aware of eachothers existence, but due to Earth being an unadministered world, the TSAB has a no-interference policy, which is broken only in the case of discovered Lost Logia. The extremely low mage population, and the fact that mages hide their existence from the normal people, has caused the TSAB to label Earth as a world without magic civilization.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Early morning khrack type moment once more.


But Subaru likes to go fast, Subaru likes to punch things with epic punches...

So...

Subaru... == Captain Falcon???

Spoiler for Thematics:

SUBARU: EEEEAAAHH!!!! Falcon... PUNCH!!!

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Oh, you've moved to Negima's Magical World now, eh? If you're using the outpost-on-Earth-shoved-to-Mundus-Magicus idea, why didn't the personnel just report back to the Empire? Why should they be stranded there? Then, after staying on that world for millenia, why go back to Earth instead of the Belkan capital? Didn't they have "no interest in the rest of the planet" in your own words? They have no attachment to Earth, their descendants would have even less.

Hey Jim, you know what I said about making suggestions for alternatives or improvements instead of just punching holes in people's ideas?

Hint.

As for why they don't report back, MM is in a completely different part of the multiverse far outside the realm of the Belkan Empire. As for why they don' move, they can't because they don't have the tech or the resources or the manpower required to make ships. Why go back to Earth? Because from there they can at least get their bearings and make contact with the Empire, which doesn't pan out because the Empire's dead by this point.

My personal fusion has the TSAB and Earth mages aware of eachothers existence, but due to Earth being an unadministered world, the TSAB has a no-interference policy, which is broken only in the case of discovered Lost Logia. The extremely low mage population, and the fact that mages hide their existence from the normal people, has caused the TSAB to label Earth as a world without magic civilization.

Putting it that way, I would say that the TSAB has contact with Mundus Magicus but not Earth, but the almost complete lawlessness of MM prevents them from being a member world; instead, it's something closer to a protectorate, so the bureau can conduct peacekeeping missions there and try to sort matters out between the local nations but they can't go around making laws and forcing the locals to follow them.

[Keroko]

Goose, the main reason this thread is created is to help eachother and share ideas. Saying that people should go off and do it themselves is destroying this thread's very purpose.

Anyway, Comar, I myself am against the whole 'Belkans are responsible for the mages on earth' idea. There are just too many gaping holes that open up using that idea, combining ideas is good, but putting too much into it does not always work.

Let's first take a step back: Why do you want Belka to be/have been on earth?

[Keroko]

He said that? Or is that what you chose to read in it? Because all I recall is Comar saying that he'd make his own kerokanon so as not to hurt the other authors and gain more freedom in his writing.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Goose, the main reason this thread is created is to help eachother and share ideas. Saying that people should go off and do it themselves is destroying this thread's very purpose.

Anyway, Comar, I myself am against the whole 'Belkans are responsible for the mages on earth' idea. There are just too many gaping holes that open up using that idea, combining ideas is good, but putting too much into it does not always work.

Let's first take a step back: Why do you want Belka to be/have been on earth?

I am more of the opinion that "Nanoha" Earth used to have more magic in the earliest ages of humanity. It would explain the exploits portrayed in ancient myths or the oracles. then there were a turning point, likely the middle ages, when magic on Earth has become weaker to the point we see in the series.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Hmmmm. How old is Comar again? I make have to give him a break on account of his age. Not very sporting to pwn a teenager who's still developing mentally.

Old enough and mature enough to be able to ignore flamebait, Goose, that's all you need to know.

Let's first take a step back: Why do you want Belka to be/have been on earth?

First, one of the big complaints with Comacanon as it was until a day or two ago was that it mashes the two universes together "with a sledgehammer". Using a Nanoha element to alter events on a Negima Earth is an attempt to fuse the two together in their ancient histories, thus providing a divergence point and an explanation as to why things are like this instead of "Oh, I replaced Nanoha Earth with Negima Earth because I wanted it that way". The creation of Mundus Magicus is the turning point; where before the center of the magical community would have more or less died out in the middle ages, here they find or create a world of their own and survive everything Medieval Europe can throw at them, which has long-term results of converting the almost completely magic-free Nanoha Canon Earth into a variation of Negima Earth.

Spoiler for Possible Negima Spoilers:

Second, putting the Belkans on Earth--and by extension, into Mundus Magicus--is an attempt at weaving them into the history of the MM kingdom of Vespertatia, of which Asuna is thought to have been a princess. This turns Asuna's magic canceling ability into a variation of the Saint's Armor, and gets her involved in the plot big time when Belka starts to play a larger role in the story after StrikerS, and even during StrikerS; Jail's certainly going to be interested in a living descendant of the royal family, isn't he?

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by comatermis

Hey Jim, you know what I said about making suggestions for alternatives or improvements instead of just punching holes in people's ideas?

I'm not here to write your backstory for you, write it yourself. And I am helping, if you can patch your backstory to the point where I can't punch holes in it, isn't that better?

As for why they don't report back, MM is in a completely different part of the multiverse far outside the realm of the Belkan Empire.

Hmm... "Lost-Logia detonation" right? Look, if they can find Earth after what happened to them, and you've set the return thousands of years after the event, why is it that much more difficult for them to go directly to the Belkan homeworld? So what if the Empire's dead by this point? They can look elsewhere, why start with the planet their ancestors were hurled from and had little interest in in the first place?
This is the biggest weak point in your current setup. You arranged for the Belkans to have no interest in the planet outside of their outpost, then you tossed them to another planet for a few thousand years. Next, you expect their many-times-removed descendants to come back to Earth and actually care about what happens to the nearly non-existent native mage population? I don't buy it.

As for why they don' move, they can't because they don't have the tech or the resources or the manpower required to make ships.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't your current premise that the outpost was a teleport waystation and that the Ancient Belkans don't have transdimensional-ship tech at this time? What do they need ships for? Just teleport-hop till they reach home.
Then again, you might be scrapping this premise after Keroko pointed out dimension transfer isn't a standard Belkan spell. We'll see...

[Aaron008R]

See the situation now. And try to determine the eventual outcome if this is left unchecked based on previously recorded data.

In my perspective, I don't like how the direction this development is moving.

Allow me to quote from a certain relevant source.

Originally Posted by Animesuki Forum Rules

1.2 Do not insult or harass other members

Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars.

I don't need to point out the specifics since it's in plain sight.

And to add my own personal touch.

1) Thread misconduct will not be tolerated.

2) Rationale (especially if erroneous) when not to be taken into consideration if used as a reason to propagate the aforementioned misconduct.

3) Genuine, overblown or imaginary friction and negative issues between OC members will be taken to either PM or IRC.

4) IRL problems are to be left where they should be. IN. REAL. LIFE. Not here.

5) This list is to be updated upon necessity.

6) No buts. ;p

[Sheba]

Worldcrafting is not some exercise you can easily do in the course of a few days. It will require you a lot of reading, reading books that are otherwise boring, research, and what's more.

And I talk as a dungeon master who prefer self-made world campains compared to the offers from the publishers.

And one more word, it's hard enough to do one for ourself.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I am more of the opinion that "Nanoha" Earth used to have more magic in the earliest ages of humanity. It would explain the exploits portrayed in ancient myths or the oracles. then there were a turning point, likely the middle ages, when magic on Earth has become weaker to the point we see in the series.

My opinion is that the exploits portayed in history was before the mages chose to hide themselves. It leaves that aura of mystery even in this world "mages may be among us..."

Originally Posted by Comartemis

First, one of the big complaints with Comacanon as it was until a day or two ago was that it mashes the two universes together "with a sledgehammer". Using a Nanoha element to alter events on a Negima Earth is an attempt to fuse the two together in their ancient histories, thus providing a divergence point and an explanation as to why things are like this instead of "Oh, I replaced Nanoha Earth with Negima Earth because I wanted it that way". The creation of Mundus Magicus is the turning point; where before the center of the magical community would have more or less died out in the middle ages, here they find or create a world of their own and survive everything Medieval Europe can throw at them, which has long-term results of converting the almost completely magic-free Nanoha Canon Earth into a variation of Negima Earth.

Sometimes fusing the two together goes more seamlessly without adding new ellements. The Nanoha earth and the Negima earth are virtually the same earth, so fusing them together is relatively easy and doesn't need major plot ellements that complicate things.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Spoiler for Possible Negima Spoilers:

Second, putting the Belkans on Earth--and by extension, into Mundus Magicus--is an attempt at weaving them into the history of the MM kingdom of Vespertatia, of which Asuna is thought to have been a princess. This turns Asuna's magic canceling ability into a variation of the Saint's Armor, and gets her involved in the plot big time when Belka starts to play a larger role in the story after StrikerS, and even during StrikerS; Jail's certainly going to be interested in a living descendant of the royal family, isn't he?

Spoiler for Negima spoilers:

You can scratch the 'thought' bit, 220 blatantly confirms this.

Anyway, here's another thought, why, instead of going trhough the whole 'ship crashlanded on earth' debacle, not make the Mundus Magicus part of the Belkan Empire? After the Belkan war ended, the Mundus Magicus decided that it'd be best not to start any more wars, and isolated themselves from Mid's reconstruction efforts. That way, you explain how the world does not seem to fully use Belkan magic (it was only a planet in its empire, they all had their own magic systems and such) and yet have members of its royal familly.

[Comartemis]

I'm not here to write your backstory for you, write it yourself. And I am helping, if you can patch your backstory to the point where I can't punch holes in it, isn't that better?

I'm not asking you to write the backstory for me, Jimmy, I'm just asking for some help with working the details out. Something like "This is broken, but have you thought of doing this to it? That might make it better." Suggestions and comments, that's all I really want... besides constructive criticism, which you have been doing a good job of offering up.

Then again, you might be scrapping this premise after Keroko pointed out dimension transfer isn't a standard Belkan spell. We'll see...

*Nods weakly*

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Anyway, here's another thought, why, instead of going trhough the whole 'ship crashlanded on earth' debacle, not make the Mundus Magicus part of the Belkan Empire? After the Belkan war ended, the Mundus Magicus decided that it'd be best not to start any more wars, and isolated themselves from Mid's reconstruction efforts. That way, you explain how the world does not seem to fully use Belkan magic (it was only a planet in its empire, they all had their own magic systems and such) and yet have members of its royal familly.

That would work very well, but what's happened to all the magitech?

[Jimmy C]

Hmm... maybe I'll throw you a bone after all.

Originally Posted by comatermis

That would work very well, but what's happened to all the magitech?

Mundus Magicus has magitech, it just looks different from the Mid and Belka-style magitech we've seen so far.

[Keroko]

Perfect, that gives me a good chance to mess around in Comacanon. Since there is no Keroko in Comacanon, I'll toss in the Negima Keroko. :3