Romance in Macross

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

It's not ends justify the means. That implies you're doing something wrong to accomplish a good deed. Ranka's being told that beyond a shadow of a doubt, she's doing the right thing. And she didn't leave Elmo, the government seperated them. Try not paying taxes sometime as a matter of principal and see how far "strength of character" gets you.

Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.

The government needs Ranka more than she needs them, so she has the ability to dictate the terms of their arrangement. If she decided to force a compromise, she could have supported Elmo.

But I'm sure that she will eventually break free, once she develops the strength, and she will eventually need to rectify things with Elmo, tax collectors or not.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

She's probably the single most scared shitless by them individual in all of Frontier, and she has no one to confide in about her experiences to gain perspective because they're all basically saying she should kill the whole lot of them.

Courage is the ability to stand by your convictions, in spite of being scared. Ranka's been allowing people to run her life for her, and only by taking charge can she stand up for her beliefs. That's where she stands to grow.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

No, she's surrounded by the same people as she's always been surrounded by. They're just telling her things she's not too sure about.

In place of Alto, Michael, Nanase, and Elmo, she now is being pulled into the company of Brera, Leon, and Grace. Even the fight between Alto and Brera was symbolic in that sense; her old mentors are slowly being supplanted.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

This isn't about personal growth. This is about figuring out what to do with her current circumstances. What the right thing to do is. Fact is she just doesn't know what to make of any of it, but she's told she still has to act for the sake of everyone.

The reason why she doesn't know what to do is because she is used to the comfort of relying on others for support. This situation is all about character development, and it will ultimately turn out be a test of her backbone.

That's definitely a good thing for her.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.

It's not really that clear cut. They've basically told her "Your country needs you". It's obvious that as far as fighting the Vajra go, Elmo would just be a dead weight. As long as he get "properly compensated" for the loss of his star artist, ditching him may be the right thing to do.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.

The government needs Ranka more than she needs them, so she has the ability to dictate the terms of their arrangement. If she decided to force a compromise, she could have supported Elmo.

But I'm sure that she will eventually break free, once she develops the strength, and she will eventually need to rectify things with Elmo, tax collectors or not.

The only way Elmo could have remained her manager was to have him work for the government. That being the case, "ditching" was probably the biggest favor she could have done for him. Suffice to say, she'd have stuck with the guy through thick and thin under normal circumstances.

Courage is the ability to stand by your convictions, in spite of being scared. Ranka's been allowing people to run her life for her, and only by taking charge can she stand up for her beliefs. That's where she stands to grow.

She doesn't know what the Vajra are. Convictions are bloody meaningless if they're not applicable to your current circumstances. Fact is, Ranka saying "I don't know" and standing back as the Vajra tear her world apart would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. Survival first, so that you might have time for regrets later.

In place of Alto, Michael, Nanase, and Elmo, she now is being pulled into the company of Brera, Leon, and Grace. Even the fight between Alto and Brera was symbolic in that sense; her old mentors are slowly being supplanted.

There's no where near the degree of seperation as you're implying. There's also nothing to indicate any of those guys would be at all helpful with her current set of circumstances.

The reason why she doesn't know what to do is because she is used to the comfort of relying on others for support. This situation is all about character development, and it will ultimately turn out be a test of her backbone.

That's definitely a good thing for her.

I'm getting really sick of people saying she lacks confidence, she lacks backbone, just because she's not a horrible bitch who'll act out of hand in the face of any given circumstances, while Sheryl is lauded for tremendous strength when she hasn't done, said, or experienced a goddamn thing that'd justify that thought. She POSES and ACTS tough without actually appreicating her circumstances or the people around her. She blissfulyl bullshits her way through everything without any sense of responsiblity. That is not STRENGTH, that is denial of reality!

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not really that clear cut. They've basically told her "Your country needs you". It's obvious that as far as fighting the Vajra go, Elmo would just be a dead weight. As long as he get "properly compensated" for the loss of his star artist, ditching him may be the right thing to do.

It could be. But Ranka didn't seem to really agree with the idea much herself. Really speaking, if she didn't want Elmo to be her manager, she could have done so at any time. But I did think that she wanted to keep him; it's just that she couldn't fight for him.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

The only way Elmo could have remained her manager was to have him work for the government. That being the case, "ditching" was probably the biggest favor she could have done for him.

It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.

But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

She doesn't know what the Vajra are. Convictions are bloody meaningless if they're not applicable to your current circumstances. Fact is, Ranka saying "I don't know" and standing back as the Vajra tear her world apart would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. Survival first, so that you might have time for regrets later.

As I mentioned earlier, Ranka has no information about the Vajra, so you can't fault her for being used. But as I mentioned earlier, her gut feelings tell her that something is amiss, and it's a simply a matter of time that her doubts grow to the point where she realizes that she must put a stop to this.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

There's no where near the degree of seperation as you're implying. There's also nothing to indicate any of those guys would be at all helpful with her current set of circumstances.

Physically, no, but the separation is still there, nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I'm getting really sick of people saying she lacks confidence, she lacks backbone, just because she's not a horrible bitch who'll act out of hand in the face of any given circumstances, while Sheryl is lauded for tremendous strength when she hasn't done, said, or experienced a goddamn thing that'd justify that thought. She POSES and ACTS tough without actually appreicating her circumstances or the people around her. She blissfulyl bullshits her way through everything without any sense of responsiblity. That is not STRENGTH, that is denial of reality!

Sheryl's problem is the exact opposite of Ranka. Where Ranka is very trusting, Sheryl has great difficulty with placing her faith in others (and I think that the shock that she experiences from Grace's betrayal will be a test of that). She stands to grow significantly by learning to open herself up to the people around her.

But on the positive side, Sheryl is fiercely individualistic and very strong-willed. Both girls have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, and they complement each other nicely. But they can both stand to grow by learning from each other.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.

Government says "Save peoples lives!" and saving people = good, therefore Ranka-chan helps the government. Not like how Sheryl smuggly used her influence to manipulate people into fighting a war, because people are such sheep.

But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.

Her brain is telling her gut she's not sure about what they're doing, because of her own personal experiences, which are pretty damn confusing given her shotty memory. Alto might like to pretend the past doesn't matter, but it's really freakin' important when you don't remember it.

As I mentioned earlier, Ranka has no information about the Vajra, so you can't fault her for being used. But as I mentioned earlier, her gut feelings tell her that something is amiss, and it's a simply a matter of time that her doubts grow to the point where she realizes that she must put a stop to this.

No, she does have information about the Vajra. She probably even saw a side of them that NO ONE had ever seen before. What she needs to do is confirm things for herself. Not stubbornly refuse to do her duty because of a gut feeling as you seem to want her to do.

Physically, no, but the separation is still there, nonetheless.

Seems like it's no worse than when she achieved celebrity status. Better in fact, since she's actively working with the SMS and probably will be for some time.

Sheryl's problem is the exact opposite of Ranka. Where Ranka is very trusting, Sheryl has great difficulty with placing her faith in others (and I think that the shock that she experiences from Grace's betrayal will be a test of that). She stands to grow significantly by learning to open herself up to the people around her.

Sheryl just doesn't seem interested. Like an aristocrat looking down on the plebs. They're beneath her notice.

But on the positive side, Sheryl is fiercely individualistic and very strong-willed. Both girls have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, and they complement each other nicely. But they can both stand to grow by learning from each other.

That's just rehtoric. Sheryl hasn't proven a darn thing besides having an attitude problem and a reckless streak. She believes herself invincible, which a fairly common belief amongst people her age. I believe it's too late for her character to become something real though, and I really hope she doesn't drag Ranka down with her into utter stupidity.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Government says "Save peoples lives!" and saving people = good, therefore Ranka-chan helps the government.

Well, that's usually how it ends up. People say all sorts of things are "good", but it takes strength of character to decide for yourself what really is good and what isn't.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Her brain is telling her gut she's not sure about what they're doing, because of her own personal experiences, which are pretty damn confusing given her shotty memory. Alto might like to pretend the past doesn't matter, but it's really freakin' important when you don't remember it.

I don't see how Ranka's memory is relevant to the Elmo issue.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

No, she does have information about the Vajra. She probably even saw a side of them that NO ONE had ever seen before. What she needs to do is confirm things for herself. Not stubbornly refuse to do her duty because of a gut feeling as you seem to want her to do.

You're presuming too much. I don't "want" Ranka to do something; I have faith that she eventually will, as her character continues to grow and mature. Right now, she's starting to see warning signs, but as she gets pushed further and further to the edge, Ranka will be forced to take a stand for what she believes in, rather than what someone else tells her to believe. It's a wonderful opportunity for her to develop her character.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Seems like it's no worse than when she achieved celebrity status. Better in fact, since she's actively working with the SMS and probably will be for some time.

That's the interesting thing about it. She's not physically separated from her usual advisors, but she's fallen into some bad company. But as she builds her individuality, she'll be able to say with confidence what is good advice and what isn't. That's the key to overcoming this trial.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

That's just rehtoric. Sheryl hasn't proven a darn thing besides having an attitude problem and a reckless streak. She believes herself invincible, which a fairly common belief amongst people her age. I believe it's too late for her character to become something real though, and I really hope she doesn't drag Ranka down with her into utter stupidity.

Even the act of pointing out my rhetoric was rhetoric in itself. But part of having a strong personality is in deciding for yourself what rhetoric you want to agree with and what rhetoric you don't.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Darial

I still think Sheryl X Alto has a good shot since Ranka's bug queen meter is going off the chart now. As for Megumi X Ayato in Rahxephon... we all knew that was never going to happen anyway. Ahh... memories of shipper wars long ago.

There was RahXephon shipping wars? I must've missed it since I was deep in action in the Rah Vs Eva front. I like Megumi but she never had a chance... when she found that photo

So you're faulting Ranka for doing exactly what Sherly was doing, with the only difference being that Ranka is actually effective at it?

Can you please show me the scene of Sheryl signing at the Varja?

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Well, that's usually how it ends up. People say all sorts of things are "good", but it takes strength of character to decide for yourself what really is good and what isn't.

It takes character to do the right thing, especially when it's neither pleasant or easy. Deciding on what is right and wrong has nothing to do with strength, as it's a simple matter of belief. Adherence is another thing altogether.

I don't see how Ranka's memory is relevant to the Elmo issue.

So the quote of yourself was in reference to having her old manager fired?

You're presuming too much. I don't "want" Ranka to do something; I have faith that she eventually will, as her character continues to grow and mature. Right now, she's starting to see warning signs, but as she gets pushed further and further to the edge, Ranka will be forced to take a stand for what she believes in, rather than what someone else tells her to believe. It's a wonderful opportunity for her to develop her character.

I doubt Ranka will have an "Enough!" moment. She might become resolved to settle her own doubts, but I don't see people pushing her into doing so. Most likely she'll have all the violence she can handle, and try to find out for herself if it's really necessary. Aka a fact finding mission to Vajraistan.

Even the act of pointing out my rhetoric was rhetoric in itself. But part of having a strong personality is in deciding for yourself what rhetoric you want to agree with and what rhetoric you don't.

I have yet to see anyone justify the "strong" lable for Sheryl. The series itself hasn't at anyrate. She's simply loud and attention grabbing for all practical purposes.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Can you please show me the scene of Sheryl signing at the Varja?

I was refering to working for the government in general.

On another note, I predict Bresra and Ranka will probably be the most popular pair in Frontier before it's over.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

It takes character to do the right thing, especially when it's neither pleasant or easy. Deciding on what is right and wrong has nothing to do with strength, as it's a simple matter of belief. Adherence is another thing altogether.

Not quite. Adopting someone else's standards on what's right and what's wrong is a simple matter of belief. Deciding for yourself what standards you believe in takes strength of character.

It's easy enough to go along with something because people say that it's "good", but it takes backbone to decide for yourself whether you really want to believe in that or not. I'm sure that this lesson will play an important part in Ranka's future growth.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

So the quote of yourself was in reference to having her old manager fired?

Yeah.

There's nothing that she can do about the Vajra issue, yet. But that will probably raise more doubts for Ranka too, as time goes on.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I doubt Ranka will have an "Enough!" moment. She might become resolved to settle her own doubts, but I don't see people pushing her into doing so. Most likely she'll have all the violence she can handle, and try to find out for herself if it's really necessary. Aka a fact finding mission to Vajraistan.

Oh, I'm not saying that someone will actually come along and tell her to straighten up her act. As Ranka continues to serve as a tool for the government, she'll probably start to question why she's going along with them, even though deep down, she doesn't believe in what she's doing. At that point, she'll need to start making up her own mind, and her character will start to grow. A fact finding mission may well be part of deciding for herself what she wants to do.

It's all part of watching the characters grow up. Nothing unusual here.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I was refering to working for the government in general.

Sheryl working for the government? Wow, that is news. I thought Sheryl working for the sake of Galaxy. Cooperating with Frongtier government is the best choice for her.

By "effective," You mean that so-called Ranka Attack which can make Minmey turn over in her grave and shock Basara to death? I have to admit that Sheryl is really inferior to Ranka in term of singing for death.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by herbert

Sheryl working for the government? Wow, that is new. I thought Sheryl working for the sake of Galaxy. Cooperating with Frongtier government is the best choice for her.

Then you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with her. Don't really blame you though, since the writers seem to prefer style over substance when it comes to Sheryl's character.

By "effective," You mean that so-called Ranka Attack which can make Minmey turn over in her grave and shock Basara to death? I have to admit that Sheryl is really inferior to Ranka in turn of singing for death.

By effective I mean actually accomplishing the tasks set before them. Sheryl's PR campaign vs. Ranka's Deathsong. One is obviously more useful than the other.

[Westlo]

Yes I have to agree with you Wesley, Ranka is being used and manipulated a lot more than Sheryl ever was

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Yes I have to agree with you Wesley, Ranka is being used and manipulated a lot more than Sheryl ever was

Yep. With Ranka they have to actually have to appeal to her better nature to get her to do what they want. With Sheryl, they just call her up and she does whatever they want for whatever reason. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if it was Sheryl singing the Deathsong, she'd have no doubt in her mind that it was the right thing to do.

[Westlo]

Of course she would, to her and 99.9999999999% of people in Frontier the Varja wiped out Galaxy which is her homeland. If you're trying to twist this into a negative thing about Sheryl's character than lmao, she's not the one who had a "conversation" with the Varja. She would have no reason to feel sympathetic for the Varja unlike Ranka and personally I find it hilarious they are trying to portray the Varja as sympathetic to the audience.

[Prov1]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Yep. With Ranka they have to actually have to appeal to her better nature to get her to do what they want. With Sheryl, they just call her up and she does whatever they want for whatever reason. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if it was Sheryl singing the Deathsong, she'd have no doubt in her mind that it was the right thing to do.

dude Sheryl's been used by Grace for like her whole life. Sheyrl has willpower and looks. Ranka has no brain and no looks, but she knows right from wrong cuz she's pretty much lived pure her own life.

[Darial]

Originally Posted by Prov1

Ranka has no brain and no looks,

Wow. A bit harsh aren't we.

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Not quite. Adopting someone else's standards on what's right and what's wrong is a simple matter of belief. Deciding for yourself what standards you believe in takes strength of character.

It's easy enough to go along with something because people say that it's "good", but it takes backbone to decide for yourself whether you really want to believe in that or not. I'm sure that this lesson will play an important part in Ranka's future growth.

I have always admired Swampstorm's posts but I think your efforts might be futile in this case. Wesley84 is not exactly reading it before quoting and responding.

I'm Sheryl x Alto for the following reasons. All of which, I'm sure has been mentioned at various threads before.

1. It creeps me out that Ranka looks like she's 12 and should not be in a relationship with a guy. Not only does she look 12, she acts 12. From her choice of clothing to the way she wears her hair, to the way she responds to others around her, she's just a little girl with a crush. She's still developing and the anime is working on it; but in the end, that would require her to be less dependent on others (especially Alto) and make decisions for herself.

2. This anime makes it seem like Alto feels more like a man when he's protecting Ranka. Remember his complex about being a kabuki actor specialized in playing women. What will happen when Ranka matures and learns to protect herself? It certainly doesn't sound like a good base for a long lasting relationship.

3. I love Sheryl! She's smart, independent, spontaneous, and really good hearted. Even though Ranka seems to be taking everything away from her, she still treats her like a friend. She's jealous, of course, but she didn't whine and bitch about it, or scheme to hurt Ranka. In fact, at the end of ep 16, she seem to be more upset that Ranka was being used as a tool of war than jealous of her popularity.

Spoiler for prediction for Sheryl:

Despite these reasons though, I feel like Kawamori would kill off Sheryl at the end of the story. Why? Because she's most likely a clone and he wants to communicate the message that despite your backgrounds, you can always shape who you become. Ranka was born a Vajra Queen, but she decides to chose her own destiny. Alto was born a kabuki actor, but he chose to become a pilot. Sheryl was created a clone, but she loved and she lived, brighter than any other star in the universe. I still hope she lives happily ever after with Alto in the end though.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

It could be. But Ranka didn't seem to really agree with the idea much herself. Really speaking, if she didn't want Elmo to be her manager, she could have done so at any time. But I did think that she wanted to keep him; it's just that she couldn't fight for him.

Wanting something and knowing it's the right thing to do are two very different things. Only the most thoroughly spoiled children don't know that.

It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.

But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.

Gut feeling can easily be wrong. I know mine have been. For example, my gut feeling tells me not to let people stick needles in me. I still get my shots and let doctors get their blood samples. What's her head telling her?

Well, after ep16, it'll tell her she can help kill the Vajra, thus making battles safer for her friends and family. Sure, she still has misgivings. But rationally speaking, Vajra are the enemy, and she can help save the lives of her countrymen. The right thing to do is to go along with it.

Where she's possibly lacking is that she didn't talk to anyone about her doubts. About the fact the Vajra communicated with her. But refusing to help because of a vague feeling that could easily be attributed to fear? Wrong.

[cerrian]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Where she's possibly lacking is that she didn't talk to anyone about her doubts. About the fact the Vajra communicated with her. But refusing to help because of a vague feeling that could easily be attributed to fear? Wrong.

I'll second you on that. That might be Ranka's biggest sin, not telling anyone that she was able to communicate with the Vajara.

If Ranka ever stands up for herself and resists the government plans, hopefully it will be because she can see the big picture and not for a more selfish motive (i.e. she doesn't like the way Grace is twisting her songs and image).

[Prov1]

Why does it feel like I'm reading the same arguement post after post after post...