General Gun Control DISCUSSION Thread

[Ithekro]

Save that they have the previous existing AWB of the 1990s to go on from before as precident.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Save that they have the previous existing AWB of the 1990s to go on from before as precident.

But as you know that law didn't ban semiautomatics, and it didn't stop the replacment of standard capacity magazines. What it did stop is nothing.
Section 922r of title 18 was amended after the 94 ban to allow for the addition of flash-hiders (relabeled muzzle brakes), pistol grips and foreends manufactured in the US because too many people were simply ignoring the ban and modifying their weapons back into Pre-Ban configurations.
ATF got overwhelmed and Janet Reno set up a special ATF board to allow for the bending and eventual breaking of the new rules to stop the flood of illegal manufacturing.

With 3D printing technology the illegal manufacturing will go through the proverbial roof.

Therefore, the ban is already dead.

[monir]

One one side we have the NRA and co. screaming that the government can't regulate gun owners. Yes, and no. The government cannot prohibit citizens from owning military weapons of use for the common defense. However, the government can (and should) make training through the CMP mandatory to purchase a paramilitary weapon since that is what it was created for in the first place.

Out of your entire post, this is the only portion I could quote without feeling the urge to punch my screen, and as such, I agree it sounds reasonable.

Knee-jerk reaction is rampant on both side of the argument. People can't even seem to frame any kind of argument without falling into the pit of stupid name calling or just coming across as angry as possible. So it has become very easy for politics to drum up their respective bases to sing their own tune while the real issues remain untouched for any proper discussion.

And do you know of any antonym for Hoplophobic so I can use it everytime I see it in your post? The point is, discuss the topic the best you can with your emotion in check (without name calling) so at least, in this private setting we can all address the issues that need to be addressed in a manner that doesn't follow suit like popular media outlet such as FOX, MSNBC, Limbaugh, etc. This discussion should not be about winning arguments, rather about educating and understanding each other. I'm sure I speak for EVERYONE, pro/anti-gun, when I say that the ultimate goal is to curve violence lower than the currently seen in our country.

[GundamFan0083]

Monir, the antonymn is Hoplophile (meaning one who has an obession with guns).

And yes I am angry about this and I will tell you why.
If they get this ban, there will be another school shooting/attack.
If they don't get this ban, there will be another school shooting/attack.
The only thing we know of that has been proven to stop a school shooting is an armed guard/person at the scene of the attack, and even then, some people will likely die.

I would point out that the media IS the problem. They are sensationalizing this and Obama is just as guilty as they are.
There is no rational national discussion because one side wants to ban the weapons, and the other side is opposed to mandatory training.
We are at an impasse.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Thought everyone would like to know, now assault weapons are being sold on ebay.

[Vexx]

What *may* happen is this: Take an item called out in the executive order that seems to contradict existing law. File a suit - get it to the Supreme Court to weigh the use of executive orders to circumvent process.

Now the Supreme Court is in the position of potentially having to rule on the concept of executive orders as well as the constitutionality of the particular order being questioned if the suit is framed correctly.

I don't suppose we could rise up above the media here and stop using the meaningless term "assault weapon"? Probably not. Its like the word "pornography" or "art" - a lot of people use it assuming everyone else has the same definition in mind and they don't. clue: it has no technical meaning.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I would point out that the media IS the problem. They are sensationalizing this and Obama is just as guilty as they are.

Wonder how far the media can be considered responsible for creating a culture of fear which propagates violence in the first place.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Funny, who's gutting the first for the second?

-The entire video game industry took a hit from the crazy NRA guy, for one.

Guns don't kill people, video games does!

[Kyuu]

So...

Gun Appreciation Day, huh?

Well, isn't that lovely...

Originally Posted by article

The National Rifle Assn., not surprisingly, vowed to wage "the fight of the century" against any new gun regulations.

Why? To ensure the next school shooting? Sandy Hook boosted gun sales after all.

Originally Posted by article

"Gun Appreciation Day is a celebration of our liberty and our freedom," Hunter told me. "It's a galvanizing event for conservatives of all stripes who are concerned about the growth of the police state."

As he sees it, an armed populace is a necessary check on runaway government power. Without an armed citizenry to oppose it, Hunter said, the U.S. government would become increasingly tyrannical.

"Gun rights are a deterrent to that," he said. "This isn't about overthrowing the government. This is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty."

And anyone who believes that -- suffers a gun addiction and needs mental help.

[Vexx]

I'd be more inclined to point a finger at the news media than popular culture. You know, those "local" (national corporate) news stations that repeat the same story ad nauseum making you think the streets are full of crime and so on. Because its cheaper.

I'd be interested to see a study that asks gun owners how many of them think the NRA is nucking futs.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

-The entire video game industry took a hit from the crazy NRA guy, for one.

Guns don't kill people, video games does!

and who in this thread has been advocating for the NRA? If your point was to make baseless insinuations, just stop now.

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd be interested to see a study that asks gun owners how many of them think the NRA is nucking futs.

Hmm, I'd say the NRA is like that crazy uncle from your dad's side of the family that you don't like, but tolerate so that he can go duke it out with the other crazy uncle from your mom's side of the family (the omgzbangunsnao! crowd).

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd be interested to see a study that asks gun owners how many of them think the NRA is nucking futs.

Well, more and more of the sane gun people -- need to come out more -- and become more vocal -- than the NRA. Use that First Amendment right, for gosh sakes.

Originally Posted by kyp275

and who in this thread has been advocating for the NRA?

And yet, people here defend their policies and views -- and viewing any sort of change towards gun policy as some kind of threat.

For you see, I'm starting to view the NRA on a similar level as the KKK; but the NRA isn't as low as the KKK. If one were to draw a Venn Diagram of NRA and KKK... I have to wonder how large is the union of the two sets.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Well, more and more of the sane gun people -- need to come out more -- and become more vocal -- than the NRA. Use that First Amendment right, for gosh sakes.

What's the point if you only consider gun owners that agrees with your view to be sane, and everyone who doesn't insane?

And yet, people here defend their policies and views -- and viewing any sort of change towards gun policy as some kind of threat.

One can agree with some of the NRA's policies and views, I certainly haven't seen anyone in here that's completely inline with everything the NRA's selling. Just like I won't call every anti-gun supporters in here lackeys for the likes of Brady just because they may support some similar views. It's all a matter of degree, no matter how much one may think or wish it's a black and white, clear cut, you're either with me or against me scenario.

For you see, I'm starting to view the NRA on a similar level as the KKK; but the NRA isn't as low as the KKK. If one were to draw a Venn Diagram of NRA and KKK... I have to wonder how large is the union of the two sets.

Then you're just letting yourself be clouded by blind stereotypes, which ironically is exactly what leads one to become bigots like those in the KKK. You can have a differences in opinions without going down the road of character assassination. Being anti-gun supporter doesn't make you a ultra-liberal pacifist hippie who can't do anything without the government, but being a gun supporter also doesn't make you a white supremacist suffering from paranoia, trying to stereotype and label people like this doesn't help.

[Kyuu]

Well, for all the things the NRA have lobbied for -- and the gun culture had managed to enjoy. It's really really hard not to do any sort of stereotyping. And no, my stereotyping isn't blind. There's a track record behind it.

And just to let you know -- it is naturally human to think along stereotypical lines. Whether you feel lumped into these stereotypes or not -- that's up to you.

Before you lump ME into a stereotype -- I'll say these things:

1) I acknowledge the right to owning guns.
2) If you wish to own guns for recreation, go ahead and have fun.
3) If you feel it necessary to own a gun for the sake of personal defense, that's fine too.

However, don't forget. Safety first.

[fukarming]

btw, did the news media interview the victim's family who own guns? What are their thoughts? It is ultimately a choice between the right/ enjoyment (or whatever you want to call it) to own guns vs lowering (not eliminating) the POTENTIAL of gun violence.

just something for all of us to think about, There are crazy people in China hurting random people as well. But since China prohibit citizens to own guns, those crazy people use hammer/cleaver instead. For the past 2 years there are 25 dead and 115 injured. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...0%E2%80%932012)

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by monir

This discussion should not be about winning arguments, rather about educating and understanding each other.

Sadly most people (me included, when I was interested in this debate) are only interested in winning the debate (whether they publicly accept it or not is another matter), it is human nature.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Well, for all the things the NRA have lobbied for -- and the gun culture had managed to enjoy. It's really really hard not to do any sort of stereotyping. And no, my stereotyping isn't blind. There's a track record behind it.

TBH, I see the way the NRA has turned out as something that was almost inevitable - after all, power corrupts. Still, it did not happen in a vacuum, if you have organizations on the other side seeking to ban guns, what did you think would be the response from those who are against the ban? They may not agree with or even like the NRA, but the alternative is even worse.

And just to let you know -- it is naturally human to think along stereotypical lines. Whether you feel lumped into these stereotypes or not -- that's up to you.

Well, as they say, we should always strive to better ourselves

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by fukarming

just something for all of us to think about, There are crazy people in China hurting random people as well. But since China prohibit citizens to own guns, those crazy people use hammer/cleaver instead. For the past 2 years there are 25 dead and 115 injured. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...0%E2%80%932012)

America has about 30,000+ dead a year when guns are involved. So, the numbers says a lot about that.

Originally Posted by kyp275

TBH, I see the way the NRA has turned out as something that was almost inevitable - after all, power corrupts.

Yes. Power indeed corrupts. And when that happens, power needs to be taken away from them. That can be done the hard way - or the easy way. When it comes to this situation, it's usually done the hard way.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

America has about 30,000+ dead a year when guns are involved. So, the numbers says a lot about that.

But I am only referring to "random violence". Not all gun violence. How much random violence, (like Sandy Hook, or batman movie shooting) happen in America every year?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

America has about 30,000+ dead a year when guns are involved. So, the numbers says a lot about that.

two different numbers, one is strictly attacks in school, the other encompasses everything from murder, accidents, suicides, police actions.

and if you really want to use China as an example? we should probably start adding in all the people that gets "disappeared", courtesy of their police.

Originally Posted by fukarming

It is ultimately a choice between the right/ enjoyment (or whatever you want to call it) to own guns vs lowering (not eliminating) the POTENTIAL of gun violence.

For your information, in the US it IS a right, it's not a privilege or luxury.

If the lessening of potential firearm related violence and death is sufficient reason for you to think the banning of guns, I ask you this.

Should alcohol be banned? or maybe cigarettes? what about unhealthy food? or polluting power source like coal? In the US, there are over 75,000 alcohol-related, 300,000 obesity-related, and 443,000 cigarettes-related deaths every year, and pollution from coal burning is estimated to attribute to 12,000 deaths per year. Where is the outrage and the call to ban alcohol, cigarettes, and fatty food? (no, I'm not advocating those measures, just pointing out the hypocrisy).

The President mentioned during his proposal that if the law can save just one life, then it's worth passing - I couldn't disagree more. It makes for a good soundbite, but in reality it would be crazy, as we'd probably end up banning half the planet.

Originally Posted by fukarming

But I am only referring to "random violence". Not all gun violence. How much random violence, (like Sandy Hook, or batman movie shooting) happen in America every year?

Well, due to their random nature, there isn't exactly a set number, as it fluctuates.

[monir]

Originally Posted by kyp275

TBH, I see the way the NRA has turned out as something that was almost inevitable - after all, power corrupts. Still, it did not happen in a vacuum, if you have organizations on the other side seeking to ban guns, what did you think would be the response from those who are against the ban? They may not agree with or even like the NRA, but the alternative is even worse.



Well, as they say, we should always strive to better ourselves

NRA may have triggered it's downfall when Lapierre gave his statement after the Connecticut incident. Probably the only thing I've liked when Scott Walker walked all over the Unions in Wisconsin is that any organized group that is seeking or has achieved political overreach better be prepared for a push back. It gave the organized Unions to give something to think about in Wisconsin and around the country. So yes, I agree that a lot of gun owners may acknowledge NRA's shortcoming, but they may feel the alternative isn't any better. It's unfortunate, really, cause as far as the NRA is concerned, they could care less how a sensible gun owner may feel about certain issues as long as he/she is a growing number which helps the organization to get its political leverage.