Possible Alternatives to BitTorrent for Fansubs?

[TigerII]

Edit by rf: Continued from this thread, after it was revealed that the DMCA notices being sent by Odex weren't intentional. TigerII's post follows.

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What I said, maybe this was a test, and after the results they are saying mistake. I still say the future is clowdy. What other things besides torrents are there to use?

[westbluef]

Well, theres IRC, FTP and um Darknets.

[minhtam1638]

Speaking of which, has the Rizon IRC channel been targeted yet?

[TigerII]

....damn...what the hell are those(I am in that computer illiterate group that was posted by an earlier user)?

[Vexx]

edit: see quarkboy and coderjoe's posts --- they're much clearer than mine

If you visit tucows.com where they have thousands of freeware/shareware packages you can find all sorts of clients that use these protocols.

A darknet is a private virtual network where users connect only to people they trust.
Business use encrypted connections to do this sort of thing (VPN) but the concept is similar.

Much better explanations can be found on Wikipedia ... I'm wasting time that I could be playing Hellgate typing here

[Coderjoe]

Originally Posted by Vexx

IRC (internet relay channel) is just a protocol for handling chat and file transfers. People have written irc automatic servers that will spit up files (bot servers) on request. Its been around since before the Web (1992ish). If you've seen mIRC or Bitch, those are IRC clients (like you can use IE, Firefox, Opera, etc for HTTP).

IRC was not really intended to handle file transfers. It wasn't until later that the Direct Client-to-Client (DCC) file transfer method was added. It still has issues when it comes to people behind NAT routers that want to run a bot.

Originally Posted by Vexx

UseNet is one of the oldest 'filesharing systems' using a really lumbering method of replicating forums across the universe and you browse through directories looking for the files you might want or post in threads (again, a pre-Web sort of text-based forum that can also be used to trade files).

Usenet also was not originally intended to be used for file transfers. One advantage here is that someone could still make an indexing site which stores NZB files that tell a usenet client program exactly which posts they need in order to get the files. One downside is that decent servers are a pay-for service, and plenty of people won't be willing to pay that fee. (even though it can be as low as $10/month up to $25/month for a decent unlimited service)

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by TigerII

....damn...what the hell are those(I am in that computer illiterate group that was posted by an earlier user)?

They are "Internet Relay Chat" "File Transfer Protocol" and various shady peer2peer networks.

You forgot the other good way to get anime, usenet (although it's not really free).

Hmm, I feel peppy right now so perhaps I'll type a long off-topic informational post about these various distribution methods:

In no particular order:

1. IRC: This is one of the oldest protocols on the internet, and designed essentially as a chat server which client computers can connect to. Organized into "channels", you can join a channel and chat via text to other people in the channel, or private message other client users directly. Eventually various extra features were added enabling people to connect directly between clients and transfer files, etc. (so-called fservs and DCC). Relatively recently (perhaps 5 years ago) newer, more effecient methods of distributing files called XDCC started being used, where automated clients called "bots" are used as file repositories, and sending messages to them allows you to download the files they have, or give you a file listing, etc. It also allows efficient queuing for high-demand files.
Most big fansub groups still have IRC channels and XDCC bots of some sort for distributing their work, in addition to bittorrent. The most popular IRC network for anime is called Rizon (and historically, aniverse and originally dalnet were the biggest networks).
2. FTP: One of the original internet protocols, designed only for transferring files from a server computer to a client computer. Although ftp's were popular many many years ago for a time, the difficulty of queuing downloads and managing bandwith made them a poor solution for increasing demand, even with complex quota systems. I am not aware of any groups offering free ftp access to their files regularly, although you can find some ftps advertised on certain IRC channels.
3. Usenet: The third and final original internet protocol before the www(okay, I'm neglecting Gopher, but no one wants to remember that one). The original distributed message board, it was designed as a global, -decentralized forum, and was originally only for text. Usenet servers would propagate new messages around to each other, and users could connect to them and download messages in various topics they subscribe to. It wasn't too long until people came up with ways to share files using usenet, by essentially converting the binary data into ascii text, and splitting up this large amount of text into many many small little messages, and uploading it all to usenet. Many topics devoted to these binary postings (the alt.binaries.XXX groups) appeared and all kinds of things have been posted there for many years, including anime. In fact, some of the first anime I ever downloaded was through usenet, back in 1995 or so.
At the moment, a pretty large amount of anime gets posted to usenet, although far from everything that is released. Usenet servers with long "retention", i.e. how long messages last, are not free, and often cost $20 or so a month for a certain amount of speed or certain total download size. Plus, you never really know what is going to be posted (although you can request things, and hope someone feels like being nice to you).
4. Various peer2peer networks. Napster might be long dead, and gnutella is defunct, but back in the day they had some anime on them. Now the popular peer2peer networks with some anime availability are edonkey, emule (which combines the edonkey network with another one), overnet, and probably a few more I'm not aware of. Unfortunately these networks tend to be full of spam, trojans, viruses and warez/malware, and the anime on them is less common and can take a very long time to download or find.
5. Japanese peer2peer networks. You won't find any english subbed anime on these networks at all, but they exist and can be useful, and are, of course, the source of raws for most fansubbers. The original one, Winny, is dying a slow death right now. Share, the current choice, is the most popular, but with it's encryption being broken people are starting to turn to the newest, and still somewhat untested one called perfect dark.

Occaisionally you can find anime on direct download places like websites, or file sharing sites like mediafire, megaupload, or rapidshare. But there is no centralized repository and most groups do not distribute this way, plus files disappear after a very short time.

[Vexx]

Thanks for the expansion and qualifications... wasn't really intending on being chronologically driven in explaining ... just a rough shorthand for those who might turn to them in the future.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Thanks for the expansion and qualifications... wasn't really intending on being chronologically driven in explaining ... just a rough shorthand for those who might turn to them in the future.

I was writing the post as you posted yours, so don't take it as a one-upping or anything. I'm just naturally more verbose .

[GHDpro]

1) IRC
This works, but queueing for xdcc's/fserve's is kind of a drag. You have to join the channel, find the right xdcc/fserve, find the right pack/folder on the xdcc/fserve, issue request for a download and then hope your turn comes quickly. Of course, when it works, it does work pretty well and if the xdcc/fserve has a good connection it can max out mine.

2) FTP (also HTTP DDL)
Back in the days this was an even greater pain, because of quota's etc. At least with xdcc/fserve you can still browse and queue files even if all slots are currently filled (unless the queue is also full). And with anime now being a lot popular, I don't think FTPs will work anymore.

3) Usenet
My favorite alternative The only downside is that the process of downloading is a bit involved (if you don't use NZB sites) and the good servers are pay only. But if you are willing to check it out, some cheap providers that support PayPal may be found here: http://www.ngprovider.com/
See also this post I made: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...90#post1261590

4) Other P2P
I'm not sure how secure any other common P2P system is. I don't think eMule etc, will be any more secure than BitTorrent is really.

5) Japanese P2P
Works great, if you're looking for raws that is. Fansubs is another matter. Also beware of fakes and viruses on Share.

[Access]

Talk about obscure protocols:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotline_Connect
This was in use back before the whole digisubbing thing started, and overlapped with some of the first-generation groups. I don't know if it can be even considered today, though, interesting thinking back.

[Ascaloth]

A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.

Um, with most of these options with the exception of peer2peer networks, you don't upload anything, only download. So unless they hack into the ftp server or irc bot that is doing the file sending, there is no way for them to know who downloaded what. That doesn't stop them from doing really incidious things like spoofing an XDCC bot with fake files and trying to trick people into trying to download stuff from their fake bot. It probably wouldn't hold up in court but it would let them know who to watch.
Usenet is slightly different, although I somehow suspect that the companies that provide usenet access are not going to release any data they might have on who downloaded what, since the second that reaches the news they would go out of business .
So basically those other methods are safe for downloaders, but much LESS safe for uploaders. And in any case in most countries except the US it is a lot harder to go after people for downloading copyrighted material than uploading it.

[GHDpro]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.

As a downloader options #1, #3 and #5 (as per my or Quarkboy's post) should be pretty safe. That doesn't mean they can't compromise them, but it'll be harder for them (#5) or they just go after the uploaders (#1 and #3) instead of the downloaders.

Option #2 depends on if logs are kept and if BayTSP ever gets their hands on such logs.

Option #4 is probably not safe from BayTSP.

[Access]

For hotline lots of servers had agreements where you had to click 'I accept' before being allowed to the server. You had to agree that you were not a member of any kind of law enforcement, or any user acting on the behalf of a CO. (I doubt that alone would hold up to much real protection, though)

Then, some servers had downloading for most everything turned off by default, and would require that you do something in order to gain full downloading privilages. For instance, you may have had to download a video that was copyrighted by the server owner. This video was market 'absolutely not for distribution-- copyright so-and-so' and it was the only file guests could download. There might be some graphic text in the video itself, and that graphic text was a password that would allow you to create a real account.

This way, an enforcement agent would first have to engage in a real copyright violation to gain download access and see what was on the server. If that agent then later tried to sue the server owner, for copyright violation, the server owner could turn around and file a counter-complaint for copyright violation since the file he had to download to even get on the site was copyrighted by the server owner.

Actual law enforcement might just laugh at such a scheme, but a corporation wants to avoid being sued by individuals -- a corporation suing an individual is not an easy case to win before a jury, but an individual suing a corporation is an easier case to win, with greater potential for damages. If a corporation has to violate copyright law in order to continue with an investigation that may not even yield any results, they might just give up and go crack down somewhere else.

[lamer_de]

Usenet is already under attack, as it's obviously become way too popular to get by unnoticed. Especially in Germany usenet was explicitely and aggressively advertised by some companies as "get your illegal downloads of music, games, movies here with full 16mbit speed", which the record companies didn't find too funny and promptly sued. Admitted, that's only in Germany, but it happens in the US as well.

nzb services have been sued in 2006 already, but of course they're hard to target as the next site will pop up another day:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/84265/mp...rch-sites.html

Which is why they're sueing the news providers directly now:
http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9798715-38.html

CU,
lamer_de

[tbl]

A Bittorrent server in Sweden is the way to go for the time being.

[Coderjoe]

Originally Posted by tbl

A Bittorrent server in Sweden is the way to go for the time being.

That only covers the tracker, not the users. A tracker without users is useless. (This whole thing started with users getting DMCA notices due to bittorrent activity)

[tbl]

Originally Posted by Coderjoe

That only covers the tracker, not the users. A tracker without users is useless. (This whole thing started with users getting DMCA notices due to bittorrent activity)

Yeah, I realised that after I posted, but I don't think BT is going to be stopped by targeting individual users. Though, then again, all it would take is for every ISP to start throttling BT.

[mist2123]

an Ftp server in Iran