[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

wow that's really crazy kitsu. Even if the morning was dark I don't think it was THAT dark, plus the biological clock should notice they hadn't slept for 6 hours.

[vandakiara]

hmm well even if that crazy theory were true... what difference would it make?

[Kitsu]

It would mess up everything up. It owuld make a huge time spam maybe Obtober 5th morning and October 6th (for example, in Ep 3 , Eva was found at october 6th what did she do in the mean time...) like I said it's something crazy.

Just something that came to my mind at 1:30, I tried to explain myself why the heck in the forth game everything takes place in the night of October 4th and in the others most of the murders in Ocotber 5th.

plus the biological clock should notice they hadn't slept for 6 hours.

That's waht I thought, too but the stress of the killings for example that can mess up a person pretty mcuh and shock them to their core. They won#t feel tired sicne the adrenaline is bumping through their veins.

I just always thought the clock Ryukishi shoves us in the face is really suspicious.

[Jan-Poo]

except the killings (except ep4) are only revealed in the morning of ep5, so it is not possible that people are affected by what has yet to happen.
The biggest problem of your theory is that everyone would wake up very tired.

[Kitsu]

That'S the major flaw, I think I'll need time to think for a way around it

[Vangrim]

Hi everyone! Well, I am new but would like to enter this Umineko discussion in particular. The word "new" goes in bold because it's probable that all the possible theories I can come up may have already been discussed in these past months.

I finished EP4 yesterday and I'm still trying to organize it in my mind, as to see in which ways the new info can and in which ways can't fit with EP1~3.

First of, there's something that always struck me as odd:

Spoiler for Rudolf's role in EP1:

This spoiler tag may be unnecesary, but... prior to midnight on the night of October 4th Rudolf informs Battler that he may be killed. I always considered that moment as a typical mystery novel cliché (which it is) where a character addresses another one the fact that he or she may be killed (hinting that they know way more than what they appear to know) and the next day voila! they're dead. The thing is... this only makes sense when it is already known that there is a killer. Rudolf hinting that, way before the epitaph is taken literally, makes me think that if he isn't the main killer in EP1, he's at least in team with him/her. I thought that he may've faked his death during the First Twilight, but this seems unlikely, since all the bodies that were unidentificable (the faceless ones) are real. But there's got to be a way around it.

Thoughts, regarding all of this?

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Vangrim

Hi everyone! Well, I am new but would like to enter this Umineko discussion in particular. The word "new" goes in bold because it's probable that all the possible theories I can come up may have already been discussed in these past months.

I finished EP4 yesterday and I'm still trying to organize it in my mind, as to see in which ways the new info can and in which ways can't fit with EP1~3.

First of, there's something that always struck me as odd:

Spoiler for Rudolf's role in EP1:

This spoiler tag may be unnecesary, but... prior to midnight on the night of October 4th Rudolf informs Battler that he may be killed. I always considered that moment as a typical mystery novel cliché (which it is) where a character addresses another one the fact that he or she may be killed (hinting that they know way more than what they appear to know) and the next day voila! they're dead. The thing is... this only makes sense when it is already known that there is a killer. Rudolf hinting that, way before the epitaph is taken literally, makes me think that if he isn't the main killer in EP1, he's at least in team with him/her. I thought that he may've faked his death during the First Twilight, but this seems unlikely, since all the bodies that were unidentificable (the faceless ones) are real. But there's got to be a way around it.

Thoughts, regarding all of this?

well first of all, welcome

I do find it awkward that Rudolf knows he's going to die but I don't believe he's the killer or an accomplice... but that's because I support the theory which says kanon is the killer (because it all makes sense)...

anyway, if he were an accomplice, why would he say he was going to be killed? I think there's actually more to it than that...

[Vangrim]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

anyway, if he were an accomplice, why would he say he was going to be killed? I think there's actually more to it than that...

Thanks!

I too believe there's much more to it. I would love to remember that scene exactly as it happened.

Is there a thread or post expanding on that Kannon = killer theory? (doesn't it go on par with the Kannon = Shannon?).

[Deathkillz]

Kanon = Shannon? Oh how I always laugh out loud when I hear that theory. Total nonsense

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Vangrim

Thanks!

Is there a thread or post expanding on that Kannon = killer theory? (doesn't it go on par with the Kannon = Shannon?).

nope it doesn't... I know who posted it so be right back with the link for you :3

edit: here it is

I think that theory explains a bunch of things and I haven't seen a flaw until now so I'm going to keep supporting this theory until someone finds a flaw or until Ryukishi gives a different answer x)

[MeoTwister5]

Man more of this Kanon = Shannon thing. Didn't this idea get shot down so many times already?

[Vangrim]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Man more of this Kanon = Shannon thing. Didn't this idea get shot down so many times already?

Well, I already said I'm new and it is the first time I've gambled with these...

[Rhysfel]

Hi everybody i'm new as a member but i've followed some of ur theories for some time, I don't know if you've already talked about this, I know that this time Goldsmith was in charge of all, but why the ceremony wasn't followed as always?!!, for example, nobody was gouged, except for krauss.

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Man more of this Kanon = Shannon thing. Didn't this idea get shot down so many times already?

hope you're not talking about the link I posted because that theory never states such a thing as I find it absurd as well...

[Vangrim]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

edit: here it is

I think that theory explains a bunch of things and I haven't seen a flaw until now so I'm going to keep supporting this theory until someone finds a flaw or until Ryukishi gives a different answer x)

It does. Especially the Fifth Twilight. Hey, thanks for the read! :3

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Rhysfel

Hi everybody i'm new as a member but i've followed some of ur theories for some time, I don't know if you've already talked about this, I know that this time Goldsmith was in charge of all, but why the ceremony wasn't followed as always?!!, for example, nobody was gouged, except for krauss.

Yet it has already be confirmed that...

Spoiler for ep 4 spoiler just in case:

That Kinzo has already been dead since the beginning of every game.

But the thing you brought out about calling the culprit "Goldsmith" is interesting. Inheriting Kinzo's title, the Goldsmith, really makes some connections however there are still not enough information to go about knowing what connection the true culprit has with the family (if you don't believe that anyone out of the 17 could be culprits or helpers). As for why stuff went horribly wrong at times...there still aren't enough information for that since events shown throughout the game are under the control of the witch...therefore a lot of the scenes shown to Battler may have been fake/incomplete to lead him astray. And things can easily go "not as planned" if the victims do unexpected stuff...like Jessica and George fighting back etc.

Originally Posted by vandakiara

hope you're not talking about the link I posted because that theory never states such a thing as I find it absurd as well...

Of course he isn't.

[Rhysfel]

Thanks for the info Deathkillz

[MeoTwister5]

I was talking about a bunch of red text that essentially points to Kanon being a separate and discernable entity.

As for Goldsmith, neither Battler nor Beato really debate the origin, use and current holder of the title of Goldsmith. Heck they fail to discuss whether an existing person aside from Kinzo could even be holding that title during episode 4.

Considering that most of the magical entities call him by the Goldsmith title, it's possible that even though Kinzo is indeed dead, the title of Goldsmith usually associated to Kinzo dould be held by someone else.

[Vangrim]

Originally Posted by Rhysfel

Hi everybody i'm new as a member but i've followed some of ur theories for some time, I don't know if you've already talked about this, I know that this time Goldsmith was in charge of all, but why the ceremony wasn't followed as always?!!, for example, nobody was gouged, except for krauss.

Except for Krauss... and Kyrie. Krauss almost made it to the mansion (dying in the back door) and Kyrie reached the mansion and died in the guest room. I'm guessing the culprit didn't have time to perform the gouging because he was chasing both Krauss and Kyrie, and after killing them, he couldn't return to the place where the bodies layed behind the mansion. He may have thought that there would be time to return and do it without anyone noticing, but Kyrie's death took longer than expected.

[Keriaku]

I read something on 4chan about how people remember the Battler from 6 years ago for being good at english, because Battler, Shannon, Jessica and George apparently talk about this on the beach during EP3 (I don't remember this, cvan anyone confirm?) But then at the Chapel in EP2, Battler says he's really bad at english.

So this lead me to think about, for the fake battler/real battler theory, what if how on different game boards, sometimes the 'real' battler shows up, while on others the 'fake' battler shows up. This is the first conference he has been back. I'm thinking EP2 and EP4 would have the fake Battler, while EP1 and EP3 would have the real one, or something similar.

Kind of like how Rika mentions that there are a few Kakera where Keiichi doesn't show up at all.

Though this all falls through if this stuff about Battler being good at english isn't true.
Here's a quote of what I read on 4chan:

The biggest reason for suspicion I have of him is that the Battler of six years ago which everyone remembers was strongly identified with his use of English.

Shannon, Jessica, George and Suit-Beatrice all remember this.

Now, out of the characters we've been presented with, the only ones who use English are Ange and Amakusa; the Battler we know does it precisely once during the conversation they're having about the past (on the beach in episode 3 when they're talking about Battler's use of English) and then you never see it again.

Compounding this is another point raised by a perceptive anon, who recalled that during the Chapel murders in Ep. 2, Battler actually says that he's terrible at English.