[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 458 Discussion

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Haak

No, I'm aware of all that. But this is all before he accepted his hollow powers. It shouldn't matter that much, then. In reality what he really should be doing is getting them to accept their hollow powers.

He had to be forced to accept his. That is something that someone should decide on their own (Do I sound like a cliched anime character?)
Ichigo wasn't given a choice, and he tried to get rid of his hollow powers, and was actually surprised to see him again in the Decide Arc. He's not the type that would try to force a power on a person, that they didn't want. Besides, he wanted his own powers back ---he jumped at the chance to get them. Selfish yes, but then he's not perfect. He didn't dwell on it long enough because he wanted his powers back, but had trouble admitting that. So he used "helping them rid themselves of the ebil hollow powah" as an excuse.

Like Aizen said "There is no such thing as 'truth' or 'lies' in this world; there never has been. There is only plain, hard facts. And yet, all beings who exist in this world take only those 'facts' that are convenient to them, and take them to be the 'truth'. They do so because they know no other way to live. However, for those powerless beings that make up the majority of this world it is those 'facts' that are inconvenient for their own self-affirmation that make up the real 'truth'."

Originally Posted by Haak

And btw I think you've got the Yammi scene wrong. He didn't freeze out of fear because he realised he was like them. He was just a little curious about it.

Nope, it's you. He was gloriously kicking Yammi's ass, and then he saw his Zanpakuto and He froze. he said. "A zanpakuto and hollow mask...are they like me"? It was then, his hollow threatened to come to surface and then shit went downhill from there.

Originally Posted by Akashin

Right. Aizen pretended to be good (Ginjou had Tsukishima turn him good), and he removed anybody that could see through his facade (Ginjou had Tsukishima turn the rest of Xcution; not turning Ishida and risking exposing himself is, as has been said, a rather glaring plot hole). Right, not the same at all.

Oh wait--

I'm not saying it's the exact same, but there is a certain resemblance between the two besides how much Ginjou looks like Aizen.

Ginjou was actually sincere, because he believed himself to be a good-guy. Aizen, was never sincere. It's not really the same

Originally Posted by Akashin

Also, this. It always bugged me that they drove home that Fullbring powers were unpleasant and that they wanted to be rid of them, yet Ichigo never bothered to ask why the powers he was acquiring were so unpleasant. If somebody tells me something tastes bad and then tries to feed it to me, I'm not going to be too quick to eat it.

See Reply to Haak above...

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

I absolutely agree. This just proved how worthless Ishida is.

Don't you think you're being a little hard on the Quincy?;uhoh: Ichigo was in front of Ginjou and he didn't trust Ishida, it's because he was desperate to make Ichigo, understand, he was caught unawares. That doesn't make him worthless. He was distracted and because of that, he was wounded. It's not like he actually fought them and got beat-down.

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

And actually, let’s not put all the blame to Ishida. All of them had mistakes here. Ichigo is really stupid and idiot in giving his trust to them and even Chad….(I wonder how they persuade Chad to join their Xcution?)…..Ginjou try to make doubt before to Ichigo where he said to him about Uruhara but Ichigo, being so dumb and stupid, rather choose to believe the stranger and not even try to confirm it to the right person involved.

He's not stupid,Ichigo admitted that he didn't really trust Ginjou during training, for his final fullbring. Urahara and Isshin were being secretive. They chose not to tell him anything. Urahara manipulated him, and then turned him into a hollow-shinigami hybrid without his knowledge. His father has been lying to him his entire life. Orihime lied about being attacked, Chad not only tried to cover for Inoue's lie. He omitted being attacked as we;;. and didn't tell Ichigo any of his suspicions regarding Tsukishima's powers. Right now everyone that he should trust and depend on, has been lying to him. It's not so odd that he chose to believe the words of a stranger, especially when he was desperate, powerless, and it seemed as if that stranger was the only one who would tell him anything. Especially when that stranger, seemed to have a common enemy and was the key to getting his powers back.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Urahara for being so smart, that he's stupid. His choices, the ones that he makes to protect people, always end up putting them in harm's way. Blame Ishida for being the worst dad in the mangaverse, despite his being the coolest dad in the mangaverse. Do not blame Ichigo, for being a pawn. That's all he's ever been because of the constant lies, and I don't think he deserves all the criticism that he gets.

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

It’s because everyone is lying from the start of this arc that’s why it became worst as it is and now, they’re just all fall to enemy’s trap – zero hope? Huh? – not a chance!

Everyone lied to him in the very first arc, of Bleach. I don't see why this time is so maddening, and the other times are not. I am not being flippant, I am just saying...

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Tsu used his power to turn ginjuro into a good guy to trick ichigo.

Exactly. Ginjo had been sincere, up until he was cut twice

Originally Posted by Casshern

Two things really bothered me about this chapter.
First, I'm disappointed that Ishida went down so fast. I know he's a small fry but come on, his cool moment was curb-stomped while it was only 73% complete. At least let him have his cool moment before reminding us that everyone in this series who isn't called Ichigo or Aizen is irrelevant.

He was caught by surprise, like I already said, you act as if he fought and got owned in one hit. Hell he had a moment of cool, up until his arrow went tink tink off of Yammi and setting off a bomb that merely put a whole in the floor and didn't hurt nobody. . In my opinion that was much worse...

Besides, Ichigo is the most important character. How come people get so mad, because he's the one that has most of the crowning moments of awesome?

Originally Posted by Casshern

Second, without Orihime screaming Kurosaki-kun every time Ichigo get's fatally wounded (several times per chapter) it feels like there's something missing. I don't like it one bit. Orihime is one of my favorite characters and I sense that she is losing her role in this series.

That's gotta be a first...

In all my years in the Bleach fandom never ever have I ever seen anyone mad because she DID NOT say Kurosaki-kun. Are you a masochist?

Originally Posted by Casshern

Other than that it was ok. Pretty decent. A bit boring though, with all those twists. One day Kubo should pull a real twist and write an arc that has no twist.

Cute, really cute. I like the plot-twists. It's part of Kubo's charm

Originally Posted by Slayerx

And my point is that Ichigo never bothered to ask. which was stupid of him...

He did ask. Ishida, didn't answer--no he refused to answer. It's not stupid of him at all. If anything it was stupid of Ishida to act that way

Spoiler for CLICK ME PLEASE!!!:

Like Papa Quincy said...

Spoiler for Um yeah, Clicking would be nice:

"it's not that he doesn't want to tell you. He doesn't have anything to tell you"

Unless Ishida drew a picture of Ginjou, even if he told Ichigo who attacked him, what good would it have done? He's a stranger What makes you think that Ichigo would have known he was talking about Ginjou?

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Fullbring is clearly different than Vizard powers een if they are both related to Hollows. Ginjo said the powers were unpleasant but at no point did we or ichigo ever see WHY these powers were unpleasant. Hell the fact that ichigo was going to inherit these powers should only lead him to asking SPECIFICIALLY what makes these power unpleasant.
..

you're killing me, you know that?
Ginjou inferred that their powers, were bad and he used Ichigo's own experiences with his hollow to drive the point home. Why would Ichigo ask, what makes it unpleasant, when Ginjou has already compared their plight, with Ichigo's. Ichigo knows first hand, how much grief hollow powers can cause. Hollows aren't evil but they eat people..they consume the soul. Here are humans that are both Human and Hollow like he is. Why would he assume that there is no downside, to their powers, when he's experienced the downside of hollow powers first hand?
Besides like I said before, he didn't care to go into too much detail because deep down inside, all really gave a damn about was his own feelings of powerlessness.
Getting his powers back,so he could once again be the hero, was his main objective. So he seized the opportunity that was presented to him and did so. Of course he wouldn't try to ask a bunch of questions because he that might mean he can't use them to get his powers back. He was using their desire to get rid of their so-called unwanted powers to get his own back. Because he realized that he wanted them after all. Their wanting to give him their powers were a convenient excuse for him to get his back. He's a flawed hero, he's not really that noble and is actually quite selfish. (Something I find refreshing) ---

He didn't beat it to death, because--- See Aizen quote above, because it makes no sense for me to type it twice, especially since I am tired of repeating myself, something I did a lot of times during this post.


Gonna end this here...I swear to god I am gonna answer the rest of your post, just not now.I am really stoked off of the Thundercats premiere --so this response is incomplete,because I want to post about how great it is, on the the ThunderCats websites


Ja!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Ginjou was actually sincere, because he believed himself to be a good-guy. Aizen, was never sincere. It's not really the same

Hence why I said it's not exactly the same. And we can't really say he was being sincere, either; while he was in the most technical sense sincere, he was only sincere because he knowingly had Tsukushima turn him into a good guy. And here we draw the comparison to Death Note because, even when Light had his memories of Kira sealed and was helping L, he was still Kira. His perception didn't change that reality; neither does Ginjou's.

See Reply to Haak above...

"He had to be forced to accept his. That is something that someone should decide on their own (Do I sound like a cliched anime character?)
Ichigo wasn't given a choice, and he tried to get rid of his hollow powers, and was actually surprised to see him again in the Decide Arc. He's not the type that would try to force a power on a person, that they didn't want. Besides, he wanted his own powers back ---he jumped at the chance to get them. Selfish yes, but then he's not perfect. He didn't dwell on it long enough because he wanted his powers back, but had trouble admitting that. So he used "helping them rid themselves of the ebil hollow powah" as an excuse."

What does any of that have to do with him showing any level of brain power? No amount of desperation to regain his powers should take away the natural instinct to be wary of a power described as "unpleasant". I get that he saw it as his only hope, and that not taking that chance meant remaining powerless, but showing at least a little curiosity and suspicion over it would have made sense.

Edit: I just noticed you elaborated on the last point here:

Ginjou inferred that their powers, were bad and he used Ichigo's own experiences with his hollow to drive the point home. Why would Ichigo ask, what makes it unpleasant, when Ginjou has already compared their plight, with Ichigo's. Ichigo knows first hand, how much grief hollow powers can cause. Hollows aren't evil but they eat people..they consume the soul. Here are humans that are both Human and Hollow like he is. Why would he assume that there is no downside, to their powers, when he's experienced the downside of hollow powers first hand?

Ichigo should have asked because, unlike his Hollow (Vizard) powers, he saw these people using their powers without visible signs of Hollowfication of any sort, be it Vizard masks or being affected mentally by a Hollow. Yes he understood the general plight of being a Human/Hollow hybrid of sorts, but what he didn't see was any sign whatsoever that these people actually shared that plight. He had Ginjou's word that they were the same, and nothing else; for how much Ichigo was suspicious of Ginjou at this time, not exploring that is weird.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He was caught by surprise, like I already said, you act as if he fought and got owned in one hit. Hell he had a moment of cool, up until his arrow went tink tink off of Yammi and setting off a bomb that merely put a whole in the floor and didn't hurt nobody. . In my opinion that was much worse...

Well poor little Tinktink Ishida. Even with both opponents in front of him and at a distance, he still manages to get caught by surprise. You're right, it's ok. He had a semi-cool moment now and another semi-cool moment 3 arcs ago so he might as well call it quits while he's still alive.

Besides, Aizen is the most important character. How come people get so mad, because he's the one that has most of the crowning moments of awesome?

I totally agree (tsk wheres a troll emote when you need it?)

That's gotta be a first...

In all my years in the Bleach fandom never ever have I ever seen anyone mad because she DID NOT say Kurosaki-kun.

Kurosaki-kyuuuuuun!

Are you a masochist?

Yes.

Cute, really cute.

You only say that cause you haven't met me IRL.

Btw, Ginjo = Gin + Benjo. Ginjo is a silver toilet. Your argument is invalid.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He did ask. Ishida, didn't answer--no he refused to answer. It's not stupid of him at all. If anything it was stupid of Ishida to act that way

You're loosing track with the various debates...
I wasn't talking about ishida in that statement you quoted...

you're killing me, you know that?
Ginjou inferred that their powers, were bad and he used Ichigo's own experiences with his hollow to drive the point home. Why would Ichigo ask, what makes it unpleasant, when Ginjou has already compared their plight, with Ichigo's. Ichigo knows first hand, how much grief hollow powers can cause. Hollows aren't evil but they eat people..they consume the soul.

First... Ginjou. Why should ichgio assume Ginjou knows what its like to be a vizard and know that both are the same. I mean when ichigo could not control the vizard the term "unpleasant" was a serious understatement; being a vizard was terrifying. But after a vizard gets control of their powers there isn't much unplesantness as far as we've seen. I mean the vizard seem to be fine with the way they are... the only unpleasantness they got was being alienating from SS, which was a social problem that the fullbringers would not have to deal with their human peers

Second... Control. When Ichigo first gained his vizard powers he could not control it and they were dangerous. the first thing on ichigo's mind should be "can I control these powers"... if these powers were really bad for the fullbringers could it be that they did not know how to tame these powers like the vizards did? Is being a fullbringer like having Hichigo inside of him? and seriously he is going to inherit all of their powers; is he really ready to try and control 6 hichigo's? For all he knows these powers could turn him into a complete monster... Sure he wants power, but it could be that the end result of this path could be turning into a monster. Not asking about the downsides is like signing a contract without reading it first

Third... Trust. At no point or time did Ginjou ever prove he was trustworthy. Ichigo should be approaching these guys with caution, and that means asking questions. Hell the fullbringers never even bothered to tell ichigo how becoming a fullbringer would grant him his old powers back; ichigo just ran into this whole thing blind... there's a difference between being desperate and being desperate AND stupid. A desperate man is willing to take dangerous risks, but a desperate stupid man takes risks without knowing the risks... ichigo falls into the later

I mean for all Ichigo knew Ginjou was really evil and this was all a plot to use ichigo for their own evil purposes and then stab him in the back... or should i say chest?

Here are humans that are both Human and Hollow like he is. Why would he assume that there is no downside, to their powers, when he's experienced the downside of hollow powers first hand?

No they aren't like him... Ichigo was a vizard, a shinigami who had gained hollow powers; not a human. But you know who IS like the fullbringers? Chad... and at no point or time has Chad EVER mentioned a downside to his powers or any kind of unpleasantness

I am really stoked off of the Thundercats premiere
!

Hey something we can agree on!

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He had to be forced to accept his. That is something that someone should decide on their own (Do I sound like a cliched anime character?)
Ichigo wasn't given a choice, and he tried to get rid of his hollow powers, and was actually surprised to see him again in the Decide Arc. He's not the type that would try to force a power on a person, that they didn't want. Besides, he wanted his own powers back ---he jumped at the chance to get them. Selfish yes, but then he's not perfect. He didn't dwell on it long enough because he wanted his powers back, but had trouble admitting that. So he used "helping them rid themselves of the ebil hollow powah" as an excuse.

Like Aizen said "There is no such thing as 'truth' or 'lies' in this world; there never has been. There is only plain, hard facts. And yet, all beings who exist in this world take only those 'facts' that are convenient to them, and take them to be the 'truth'. They do so because they know no other way to live. However, for those powerless beings that make up the majority of this world it is those 'facts' that are inconvenient for their own self-affirmation that make up the real 'truth'."

It's chapter 420 btw. And I've read it again and again and you know what? I don't see Ichigo being forced to accept anything. In fact from the way he's acting it seems he felt genuine sympathy. And it didn't seem to me like like he was jumping at the chance to get rid of them. Infact, I don't recall him ever saying anything along the lines of "well atleast I don't have that hollow in me anymore".

Nope, it's you. He was gloriously kicking Yammi's ass, and then he saw his Zanpakuto and He froze. he said. "A zanpakuto and hollow mask...are they like me"? It was then, his hollow threatened to come to surface and then shit went downhill from there.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the last time Ichigo faced Yammi, not the first time. It's interesting though that there's a difference. The first time he's scared of being taken over but the last time he's not at all worried.

[Aqua Knight]

Originally Posted by Haak

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the last time Ichigo faced Yammi, not the first time. It's interesting though that there's a difference. The first time he's scared of being taken over but the last time he's not at all worried.

Why interesting?1st time he didn't even know what an Arrancar was and didn't have any Vizard mask training. The last time he wasn't afraid because hollow doesn't take over twice in a row as hollow Ichigo needs to rest

[rei_ayanami17]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Don't you think you're being a little hard on the Quincy?;uhoh: Ichigo was in front of Ginjou and he didn't trust Ishida, it's because he was desperate to make Ichigo, understand, he was caught unawares. That doesn't make him worthless. He was distracted and because of that, he was wounded. It's not like he actually fought them and got beat-down.

As what Slayerx post,” you’re loosing touch with what the issue is” ……try to read again the quote I quoted from him so you’ll understand why I agree and said that to Ishida……….. I’m not being little hard/underestimating quincy’s, It was Kubo!......(for letting him so open)……..i like Ishida and it hurts me to see him got cut twice without putting a fight or even defending himself somehow…

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He's not stupid,Ichigo admitted that he didn't really trust Ginjou during training, for his final fullbring. Urahara and Isshin were being secretive. They chose not to tell him anything. Urahara manipulated him, and then turned him into a hollow-shinigami hybrid without his knowledge. His father has been lying to him his entire life. Orihime lied about being attacked, Chad not only tried to cover for Inoue's lie. He omitted being attacked as we;;. and didn't tell Ichigo any of his suspicions regarding Tsukishima's powers. Right now everyone that he should trust and depend on, has been lying to him. It's not so odd that he chose to believe the words of a stranger, especially when he was desperate, powerless, and it seemed as if that stranger was the only one who would tell him anything. Especially when that stranger, seemed to have a common enemy and was the key to getting his powers back.

You don’t understand me, do you? That’s why I conclude/summarize there “it is because everyone is lying from the start….”

And you can’t change my mind to say that Ichigo is dumb and stupid in trusting them, eventhough he has nothing left anyone to trust……it doesn’t make any sense….a stranger is still a stranger……..and in fact, mind you, Ichigo is been lying EVEN TO HIMSELF TOO right in the beginning of this arc when he said to Keigo that “I’m fine with peace until I die” with his POV’s saying: “I’ve never once felt superior due to being able to see ghost. And I never thought to make a living with it. I also never thought to help anyone because of it I ……..just dreamed of having a life where I couldn’t see them. I’ve become what I’ve always dream… ”


If he really feels that way in the beginning then why didn’t he just choose to stay away from them and just act like statue which not minding anyone. And now, just this past chapter, he’s asking himself what is the purpose of regaining his power if all of this just happen – my answer? …..its because he’s dumb and stupid in trusting them.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

If you want to blame anyone, blame Urahara for being so smart, that he's stupid. His choices, the ones that he makes to protect people, always end up putting them in harm's way.

Huh?!? Why would I blame Uruhara…..Kubo never tell us yet whether he and Isshin is been aware with this situation. It was Ginjou who’s speculating him in the first place and trying to make doubt in Ichigo’s mind by turning his back to Uruhara and make what he witness back then a way to gain Ichigo’s trust. Ginjou is evil right from the start.

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Do not blame Ichigo, for being a pawn. That's all he's ever been because of the constant lies, and I don't think he deserves all the criticism that he gets.

My bad if my previous post seems like pin pointing Ichigo’s character as a whole stupid and dumb – of course not! If there is a reason why Bleach gotten this far, of course, its all because of him. And I’m still willing to keep up with the series to know how he could fulfill his destiny. And hey……..i’m not the only one who said that his dumb and stupid, all of the people he defeated always notice that too! : P

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

He's not stupid,Ichigo admitted that he didn't really trust Ginjou during training, for his final fullbring. Urahara and Isshin were being secretive. They chose not to tell him anything. Urahara manipulated him, and then turned him into a hollow-shinigami hybrid without his knowledge. His father has been lying to him his entire life. Orihime lied about being attacked, Chad not only tried to cover for Inoue's lie. He omitted being attacked as we;;. and didn't tell Ichigo any of his suspicions regarding Tsukishima's powers. Right now everyone that he should trust and depend on, has been lying to him. It's not so odd that he chose to believe the words of a stranger, especially when he was desperate, powerless, and it seemed as if that stranger was the only one who would tell him anything. Especially when that stranger, seemed to have a common enemy and was the key to getting his powers back.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Urahara for being so smart, that he's stupid. His choices, the ones that he makes to protect people, always end up putting them in harm's way. Blame Ishida for being the worst dad in the mangaverse, despite his being the coolest dad in the mangaverse. Do not blame Ichigo, for being a pawn. That's all he's ever been because of the constant lies, and I don't think he deserves all the criticism that he gets.

no i would say that ichigo is both a hypocrite and and an idiot.
He expects urahara, isshin and his friends not too keep secrets from him? Hypocrisy. what has he been doing since day one? He kept the secret of his powers from his friends and family. Ichigo of all people should understand that sometimes that their are good reasons to keep secrets. Ichigo himself practially said as such himself when he first found out his father had powers. I mean Orihime, Chad and Ishida are just treating Ichigo the same way he treated all his non-superpowered friends and relatives when he had powers.

Ichigo is also an idiot because he he is growing distrustful of people without actually trying to get the truth from them. First Isshin; Ichigo told him that he himself was guilty of lying and thus told his father that he can tell him the truth when he's ready... If ichigo's gonna grow distrustful of his father because he did not tell him the truth after ichigo himself told him he was willing to wait, then ichigo should FIRST confront his father. Confront him and demand to know the truth right here and now and see if he is still tight lipped. He allowed Ginjou to talk him into being distrustful of his father with no actual reasoning and without trying to find out the truth himself... Hell, Isshin might have even had some clues on how Ichigo could regain his powers, but Ichigo would not know because he never even bothered to confront his father

And Second there is Urahara... He has done A LOT to help out ichigo in the past year; sure he was a secretive jerk in his methods, but ichigo can not deny that he's been most helpful. His friends in both SS and the vizards also trust him. He's done a lot more to earn ichigo's trust than complete stranger. At the very least he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I mean Ginjou makes it seems ominous that Karin has been meeting with Urahara, and Ichigo just lets that turn into a seed of distrust without actually trying to talk to either of them and find out what's up. Cause really, if he DID confront them, they would tell him that Karin has been going to Urahara's place to buy anti-ghost gear since handling spirits is her job now... Ichigo would found out that there is NOTHING suspicious actually going on.

This is why ichigo is an idiot... he took the word of a complete stranger and has allowed himself to grow distrustful of those around him without actually investigating the issue himself. If he had just confronted them, he might find that his reasons for distrust are completely unfounded.

[Aqua Knight]

Holy hell, this thread becomes unreadable due to large walls of text!

[Mr. DJ]

structured paragraphs a wall of text it does not make

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Murasaki

Holy hell, this thread becomes unreadable due to large walls of text!

Some people like to think. Some people like to type. Some like to do both. However, enlightened you proabably will not be with this page

[Mr. DJ]

Also...

*scratches head* I thought it was voted unanimous that Ichigo is a idiot.

[Akashin]

Err... wasn't it implied (if not outright stated) that he was a relatively good student? Poor thinker he may be (horrifically bad at that, given recent events), but I thought he was implied to have been relatively intelligent theoretically.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Err... wasn't it implied (if not outright stated) that he was a relatively good student? Poor thinker he may be (horrifically bad at that, given recent events), but I thought he was implied to have been relatively intelligent theoretically.

It's not like he's a poor thinker.

He's using his emotion to take the decision. Not his logic.

Of course his action is getting worsened as he's fight to protect others, not to satisfy his own goals. In result, it broke his mind when everyone he protected is going against him.

As Ginjou itself, it's not that easy for Ichigo to suspect him.

He's losing his power and obsessed to return to the battlefield.
It comes someone looking for him and saying that he would help him to regain his power. This turn of situation is also supported by Tsukishima's Fullbring, as Ginjou said that Tsukishima killed a shinigami before. Making Ichigo who always think emotionally comes into conclusion : Ginjou is my friend, Tsukishima is my enemy.

[Akashin]

I didn't word the poor thinker part correctly, but you're right in calling it a difference between being logical and being driven emotionally.

As for Ginjou, I don't think that anybody is really arguing why Ichigo eventually came to trust him. But no amount of obsession should have stopped him from being wary of accepting an 'unpleasant' power which, by all rights, he should have been comparing with the initial unpleasantness (understatement, as somebody else said) of being a Vizard. I'd like to think even Ichigo should have put avoiding another situation like that above getting his powers back, or at least been wary of such a situation being possible.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Tsu used his power to turn ginjuro into a good guy to trick ichigo.

I think he did too. That may have been want he meant. Maybe before meeting with Ichigo he cut him then cut him gain here.

[Akashin]

Why are we saying maybe? Didn't Ginjou say exactly what you just said in this chapter? Only difference is that it was Ginjou's idea to do so ("I had Tsukishima cut me."), not Tsukishima's.

[james0246]

The new thread has been opened, so please stop posting 459 spoilers in the 458 thread.

[Alchemist007]

James, you gotta make the Bleach thread sooner like with Naruto.