General Gun Thread

[grylsyjaeger]

I'll be buying a conventional AW or AX in 7,62x51mm, as close as you can get to an "actual" L96A1.

Already got the S&B PMII 4-16x50mm scope on my Steyr that would be perfect for an AW. I'll likely sell my Steyr towards the AW I reckon.

[maplehurry]

Just a small correction to a comment made by someone, Russia had higher murder rate than US, but NOT higher gun-related murder than US.

Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/

[Archon_Wing]

I support my fellow neighbor's right to bear arms in a responsible fashion.

Considering I come close to at least dying 3 times a week to people who go around in 1-2 ton weapons at high speeds, I would definitely put my life in the hands of my friend with an ak47 rather than that stupid bitch in an SUV who never signals or looks left when I cross the street. Oh and let's not forget all those pollutants. Pretty sure if you a buy a gas guzzler, you've done more damage to the planet and life than you would have with a gun.

[YF19EX]

Here is my Accuracy International AE MK1.



A 5 shot group


At 300 yards (looking back toward the range)

[deathcoy]

Thats a sweet rifle. Are guns inexpensive and affordable in the US?

Only time i get to shoot is during my mandatory military service and reservist there after. But i really hate cleaning rifles...

[SummeryDreams]

I own a 9mm pistol but can't buy myself some bullets. Our store here are a shit for requiring permit to transport even for bullets which is as a matter of fact an expensive requirement if you want to avail it from the government. So it's nothing but a useless display at my room.

[SaintessHeart]

US Military Is Replacing The M16 With The M4, Permanently

Well I guess they are not the last. Philippines is still using the M16, and probably some of the SEA countries as well.

It is a nice gun while it lasted. Every country is trying to replace it with their own indigenious rifle (mine is an overweight fatass). The surpluses are not going to last without maintenance.

[MrTerrorist]

Since the M16 is phased out for the M4, i wonder if that means the US will sell surplus M16s to their allies?

[SaintessHeart]

The M16 is easily tooled and built, and most of their allies have factories to build licensed copies (Canada has the Diemaco, Singapore has the M16S1 under STK, Philippines has GA).

The spares would probably be sold to the public or their allies, or retained in the non-frontline troop. I doubt the new US allies wants it since most of them have militaries more proficient in Warsaw Pact weapons (AK, RPK, PKM).

[Psyco Diver]

Yea they didn't get rid of the M14, they stored it away. Most likely though they will phase them out as they wear out/break and keep a certain supply of them for the future as a "just in case"

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Psyco Diver

Yea they didn't get rid of the M14, they stored it away. Most likely though they will phase them out as they wear out/break and keep a certain supply of them for the future as a "just in case"

I remember watching on Discovery Channel on US Navy sailors use the M14 on their ships and some Spec Ops troops use a sniper variant of the M14.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

I remember watching on Discovery Channel on US Navy sailors use the M14 on their ships and some Spec Ops troops use a sniper variant of the M14.

Yep. Mount a scope and that is NATO's answer to the Dragonuv - aka M21. Crude, but effective. Even up till today.

The 7.62mm punches through brick and redefines the term "cover" in urban warfare. The US will keep that rifle around for some time.

[Renegade334]

The M14 is still there because it found a role as a squad DMR and not as an assault rifle. Places like Afghanistan showed that the M16's 5.56mm round just didn't fly far enough with appreciable terminal stopping power, and something heavier should do the trick. The M14 isn't supposed to work like an AR and lay down large volumes of fire, but act like a bridge between an AR and a full-fledged precision rifle like the M24/M40, which makes it perfect for sentinels/guards (US Navy personnel in charge of vessel security) who have to engage enemies from standoff distances. As for the Spec Ops part, well, most M14 variants are actually marksman rifles (Mk 14 EBR for USAR, M39 for USMC), not sniper (read: precision) rifles. The older M21 and M25 are OTOH considered actual sniper rifles, but they're being phased out in favor of newer (and longer-ranged) stuff like the M2010 and aren't that much in use nowadays.

Besides, the Army has recently launched the M4A1+ program to try and refine the M4, so for them it's two birds, one stone.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

The M14 is still there because it found a role as a squad DMR and not as an assault rifle. Places like Afghanistan showed that the M16's 5.56mm round just didn't fly far enough with appreciable terminal stopping power, and something heavier should do the trick. The M14 isn't supposed to work like an AR and lay down large volumes of fire, but act like a bridge between an AR and a full-fledged precision rifle like the M24/M40, which makes it perfect for sentinels/guards (US Navy personnel in charge of vessel security) who have to engage enemies from standoff distances. As for the Spec Ops part, well, most M14 variants are actually marksman rifles (Mk 14 EBR for USAR, M39 for USMC), not sniper (read: precision) rifles. The older M21 and M25 are OTOH considered actual sniper rifles, but they're being phased out in favor of newer (and longer-ranged) stuff like the M2010 and aren't that much in use nowadays.

Besides, the Army has recently launched the M4A1+ program to try and refine the M4, so for them it's two birds, one stone.

They have been trying to replace the M16/M4 design since 1993 if I am not wrong.

I think the real problem is that until we can economically produce guided bullets, the automatic rifle is here to stay.

[Renegade334]

^-- Try 1986, that's when the "M16 replacement competition" nightmares started in earnest. There was the ACR, then the OICW/XM29 SABR, the XM8 and a slew of other competitions that showed little to no improvement (we're not talking number of stoppages or MTBFs, but overall functionality/lethality) over the existing M16/M4 or failed to offer a solid reason to disburse millions, if not billions of dollars (costs of maintenance, spare parts, training and distribution, not to mention the inevitable disposal of the old models) to replace a rifle that was still good enough and happened to be easily upgradable thanks to its ever-increasing modularity (no need to play full price for a new rifle when you can merely fix the problematic components separately then slap everything back together).

A lot of the complaints surrounding the AR15 platform date back to the Vietnam war and are today vastly irrelevant. In fact, most GIs who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq can vouch for the AR15 variants (esp. the M4) and concur that it's actually quite resilient and reliable.

As for the guided bullets, so far the EXACTO system only exists in .50 BMG format, and that's because the HMG round is large enough to accommodate the electronics and control surfaces. It might be trickier for smaller calibers, as DARPA would need to further miniaturize the entire thing and ensure it's still hardened enough to withstand the stresses of firing and ballistic flight.

[YF19EX]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

^-- Try 1986, that's when the "M16 replacement competition" nightmares started in earnest. There was the ACR, then the OICW/XM29 SABR, the XM8 and a slew of other competitions that showed little to no improvement (we're not talking number of stoppages or MTBFs, but overall functionality/lethality) over the existing M16/M4 or failed to offer a solid reason to disburse millions, if not billions of dollars (costs of maintenance, spare parts, training and distribution, not to mention the inevitable disposal of the old models) to replace a rifle that was still good enough and happened to be easily upgradable thanks to its ever-increasing modularity (no need to play full price for a new rifle when you can merely fix the problematic components separately then slap everything back together).

A lot of the complaints surrounding the AR15 platform date back to the Vietnam war and are today vastly irrelevant. In fact, most GIs who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq can vouch for the AR15 variants (esp. the M4) and concur that it's actually quite resilient and reliable.

Agreed, the incremental improvements in piston and other systems do not justify the cost of spending into a new weapons platform that itself does not solve the fundamental issued with round. 556 is still 556 no matter what gun its fired from. I do hear the new M855A1 is the real deal in terms of ballistics and penetration and will probably be a great addition to the new M4A1+ improvements coming down the line.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-m4-is-flawed/
This particular article is probably best describes the overall M4 situation and what improvements from the Civilian Market will help in the military.

[Renegade334]

The 62-grain M855A1 indeed appears to have boosted the AR15 platform's lethality, but the big downside to it is that the higher pressure inside the barrel causes more wear than the original M855/SS109, which in turn could translate to higher maintenance costs/duties.

Not to mention that there were these accusations of increased fouling that were floating around...

I dunno whether the M4 should upgrade to 6.5mm Grendel or 6.8mm Remington, though...that'd mean changing an entire ammo ecosystem and there are some in DC who would balk at the idea, especially if you are to hand them cost estimates.


BTW, what's up with the G36 hoopla? One month the German government and its component agencies say the accuracy problems are linked to the ammunition, but the next one they say it's the rifle itself that's flawed and they should replace it with the M416/M417. And on and on.

[YF19EX]

Yea, heard about the M855A1's increased pressure and possibility if increased parts wear. Although I am not in the military, I have handled Military spec guns, well used and loose as a goose in terms of how worn things are. It really is in the maintenance. Guns are issued to grunts for quals and practice all day long and put back wet. Things get old, parts get worn. Heck barrels burn out around 20k and the military could do that to one gun in practice and drills alone in one year. Military personnel tell me they take all the ammo they need to the range for practice and they use it all up because they don't want to have to account for rounds they have to take back. So blow out a few cases before returning your guns.

As for the G36 well I think The Firearms Blog reportrd it better. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ound-with-g36/

I know people hate on H&K all day long and they do deserve it in some cases: cost per units, questionable advertising, responses, sales scandals etc. But I also think allot of the German government has a hand in lot of their issues, from export restrictions to their love hate relationship the two seem to have.

[Juke16]

According to what I've heard from people who've gone over to the Middle East, there's nothing wrong with the G36 and it works quite well. All metals and plastics will become less rigid as you heat them up, the problem is that most people hear plastic and instantly think of the cheap plastic you see in dollar stores and not the high strength plastics used on firearms.

If you really want to talk about heat problems, look no further than the M4. I've heard a case, from a very credible friend who was in the military, of a M4 handguard getting so hot in combat that it melted the gloves of its user.

@YF19EX Funny that you should mention HK advertising, do you notice what's wrong :P

[YF19EX]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ts-real-story/

Here is the story behind that iconic image