Character Discussion - Kallen

[Dandylion]

Originally Posted by youngde

It's not like the Geass makes him all powerful. If he gets into a situation where he couldn't win AND couldn't run, he would die. Lelouch Geassed Shirley to live too, but it didn't stop her from bleeding to death. The Live command can only overcome so much.

I didn't say it made him powerful and there's a difference Shirley was in and inescapable situation, she was bleeding to death while if Suzaku is engaged in battle the command will give him the best possibly outcome of either escaping and overcoming the terrain. I don't know the outcome if he was in Shirley's situation?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dandylion

I didn't say it made him powerful and there's a difference Shirley was in and inescapable situation, she was bleeding to death while if Suzaku is engaged in battle the command will give him the best possibly outcome of either escaping and overcoming the terrain. I don't know the outcome if he was in Shirley's situation?

Possible outcome does not equal sure thing. It forces him to live whatever the cost, but it is not infallible. Those Gun-Rus in episode 20 would have wasted him despite his live Geass activating. Just because he is trying to live does not mean he can't be killed.

[Dandylion]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

This will be a completely out there hypothetical, but bear with me. Say the Death Star suddenly shows up in Code Geass and Palpatine decides to blow up the Earth. Just for kicks, he tells everyone this, Suzaku included. Suzaku's live Geass activates, and he runs for the Lancelot, because just for the hell of it the Lancelot can exit the atmosphere. But wait, Palpatine can talk faster than Suzaku can run, and blows up the Earth. Suzaku is dead. Did his command fail? No. he was trying to live the entire time. His Geass command cannot allow him to breathe in space or teleport, because it cannot do the impossible.

If his command activated against Kallen, yet she managed to destroy his weapons and get the claw on him, his command would not matter. She'd fry him and he'd die, despite his best efforts to live.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense when you put it that way. Well if she managed to get that far unscathed still having her weapons and him having none then I'll eat my own words, but like everyone says Code Geass has made alot of WTF moments so even if he gets clawed well.....

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Possible outcome does not equal sure thing. It forces him to live whatever the cost, but it is not infallible. Those Gun-Rus in episode 20 would have wasted him despite his live Geass activating. Just because he is trying to live does not mean he can't be killed.

That's true, can't argue with that I guess

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If his command activated against Kallen, yet she managed to destroy his weapons and get the claw on him, his command would not matter. She'd fry him and he'd die, despite his best efforts to live.

The problem is, you greatly overestimate Kallen because you're a fanboy. Seriously. Live Geass + likely superior machine = KALLEN WINZ? It's probably a tie.

What's next, it was the POWER OF LOVE that fueled her awesome war rush?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Vakir

The problem is, you greatly overestimate Kallen because you're a fanboy. Seriously. Live Geass + likely superior machine = KALLEN WINZ? It's probably a tie.

What's next, it was the POWER OF LOVE that fueled her awesome war rush?

in this case, I'm merely demonstrating how the command could fail to keep him alive. It has nothing to do with her actually being capable of it. I'd like to think she could, but it's beside the point in this instance.

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

in this case, I'm merely demonstrating how the command could fail to keep him alive. It has nothing to do with her actually being capable of it. I'd like to think she could, but it's beside the point in this instance.

The way you worded it, it sounded rather effortless.

I just don't think Bismarck minus his Geass is inferior to Kallen with the SEITEN. Period. : / If anything, Kallen will stand up to Suzaku because of plot armor.

[youngde]

Truthfully, I don't see either mech getting permenently damaged in their fight, since it would exclude them from the final fight with Schneizel, which would make the fans go 'boo' (at least many of them). At the end of the day, it's all about crowd pleasing and selling DVDs.

I'm most inclined to think the battle will end prior to any final conclusion. It's just so many people say that Suzaku winning is a sure thing because he has his 'Live On' Geass. But this is Code Geass, and if it were that obvious, it wouldn't be in this show. They have to throw a curve ball in there somewhere. I've lost count of how many times I've thought that something for sure has to happen in a particular episode, only to go, 'Man, I was waaay off,' at the end. So from now on, I'm going to assume everything that I think will happen is wrong.

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by youngde

So from now on, I'm going to assume everything that I think will happen is wrong.

In that case, episode 24 and 25 will not air.

Code Geass R2 Ending: NICE BOAT.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by youngde

Along that line of reasoning, the American Revolution was a big act of terrorism and the USA's founding fathers were terrorists. At any rate, this has been discussed before, and I'm not going to do it again. This is the last you'll hear from me on this particular subject.

The Americans actually had a conventional army and engaged the British in open warfare. They didn't use "terrorism" to win the war, there's a big difference between people who act openly in defiance and those who hide their identities to wage a covert war. The Colonies got together and established their own government, and raised their own army. Yes some colonists behaved like terrorists in their "militias", but most of them were eventually absorbed into the Continental Army, which fought by the rules.
Please point out a terrorist that has played by the book...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Vakir

The way you worded it, it sounded rather effortless.

I just don't think Bismarck minus his Geass is inferior to Kallen with the SEITEN. Period. : / If anything, Kallen will stand up to Suzaku because of plot armor.

Well, the effort wasn't really important. Anyway, if Bismarck is inferior to Suzaku minus Geass, he's inferior to Kallen minus Geass. His machine couldn't keep up, so he used Geass. He would have had to use it against Kallen all the same.

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Anyway, if Bismarck is inferior to Suzaku minus Geass, he's inferior to Kallen minus Geass.

Isn't that kind of a hop, skip, and a jump of an assumption?

The Americans actually had a conventional army and engaged the British in open warfare. They didn't use "terrorism" to win the war, there's a big difference between people who act openly in defiance and those who hide their identities to wage a covert war. The Colonies got together and established their own government, and raised their own army. Yes some colonists behaved like terrorists in their "militias", but most of them were eventually absorbed into the Continental Army, which fought by the rules.
Please point out a terrorist that has played by the book...

Sons of Liberty. They used terrorism up the ass, dude. Look it up. EVERYONE is a terrorist. Every government, ever. Because "terrorism" is a stupid as hell term. We use fear all the time to control responses. It's part of manipulating behavior to work as a society to establish ethics by means of straying away from unwanted punishment.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The Americans actually had a conventional army and engaged the British in open warfare. They didn't use "terrorism" to win the war, there's a big difference between people who act openly in defiance and those who hide their identities to wage a covert war. The Colonies got together and established their own government, and raised their own army. Yes some colonists behaved like terrorists in their "militias", but most of them were eventually absorbed into the Continental Army, which fought by the rules.
Please point out a terrorist that has played by the book...

by British standards, what they did might as well have been terrorism. They played by their book, not by the British book, which is what allowed their inferior army to win.

Originally Posted by Vakir

Isn't that kind of a hop, skip, and a jump of an assumption?

No, not really. Albion and SEITEN are, weapons aside, equal machines. He'd have been no more able to keep up with her than he did Suzaku.

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

by British standards, what they did might as well have been terrorism. They played by their book, not by the British book, which is what allowed their inferior army to win.

Let's not even begin to talk about some of their pre-war declaration tactics.

But yes, some would call guerrilla tactics and attacking a drunken army on Christmas as "not by the book."

No, not really. Albion and SEITEN are, weapons aside, equal machines.

Source? Animedia (or was it Newtype?) summaries call the Albion the strongest KMF. Let's not even begin to discuss which of the two is necessarily a better pilot.

[Dandylion]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Well, the effort wasn't really important. Anyway, if Bismarck is inferior to Suzaku minus Geass, he's inferior to Kallen minus Geass. His machine couldn't keep up, so he used Geass. He would have had to use it against Kallen all the same.

I doubt that, Bismarck could of still won against Kallen with his geass since he could have predicted if Kallen were to use her radiation arm or any of her accessories at her disposal while with Suzaku he couldn't predict anything because of his live command, how can Kallen counter that?

[Dandylion]

Originally Posted by Vakir

Source? Animedia summaries call the Albion the strongest KMF. Let's not even begin to discuss which of the two is necessarily a better pilot.

Ummm yeah I'll take them like a grain of salt right now since their whole description was for episode 21 which was completely off and besides we've already seen the most powerful KMF and that was Siegfried

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Vakir

Source? Animedia summaries call the Albion the strongest KMF. Let's not even begin to discuss which of the two is necessarily a better pilot.

Animedia summaries are hardly a valid source, as they're just taglines meant to hype the episode. In terms of speed, the Albion isn't shown to be any more impressive than the SEITEN, Suzaku's steroid Geass notwithstanding. In terms of firepower, both have their strengths. One thing important to note. The Guren doesn't have to drop its weapons to use its sword. As soon as Suzaku gets into close combat, he's short both VARIS rifles.

In short, the thing that matters, which is the speed, is no different between the Albion and the SEITEN. Bismarck would not stand a chance against either without Geass.

Originally Posted by Dandylion

I doubt that, Bismarck could of still won against Kallen with his geass since he could have predicted if Kallen were to use her radiation arm or any of her accessories at her disposal while with Suzaku he couldn't predict anything because of his live command, how can Kallen counter that?

This is meant to assess their chances without Geass, not with it. Kallen would be at a disadvantage, that much is obvious.

[Vakir]

Revo, what did I say about terrorists?

It's a stupid term.

In short, the thing that matters, which is the speed, is no different between the Albion and the SEITEN. Bismarck would not stand a chance against either without Geass.

I like how you measured relative concepts that may be portrayed totally different for the sake of dramatic effect with your HEAD that can't do that as opposed to what was laid out for you, questionable source or not.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Dandylion

I doubt that, Bismarck could of still won against Kallen with his geass since he could have predicted if Kallen were to use her radiation arm or any of her accessories at her disposal while with Suzaku he couldn't predict anything because of his live command, how can Kallen counter that?

Well, since Bismarck is suffering from a permenant stall in his metabolic processes, we'll never know for sure. At any rate, his machine was no better than the Lancelot Conquesta (which Kallen tore apart in the SEITEN) or the Guren Kashoshiki. And it's not like Suzaku's 'Live On' Geass increases his machines specs. All it really did was tell him to go up the middle and cut him in half, which is the kind of stratagy Kallen would do anyway. So I think Kallen could beat Bismarck. Whether Kallen can beat Suzaku is still in question.

[Vakir]

Originally Posted by youngde

At any rate, his machine was no better than the Lancelot Conquesta (which Kallen tore apart in the SEITEN) or the Guren Kashoshiki.

I thought the Shen-Hu was roughly equal to the the Guren Kashoshiki regardless of the energy outage and Bismarck absolutely destroyed the Shen-Hu?

All it really did was tell him to go up the middle and cut him in half, which is the kind of stratagy Kallen would do anyway. So I think Kallen could beat Bismarck. Whether Kallen can beat Suzaku is still in question.

You're oversimplifying it to very basic movements. You're not thinking about how the "Live" Geass might've made him move faster than he would normally push himself to go on his own thought process, or even the tiniest little flows or dodges that Kallen wouldn't know to do in order to lay out the best possible path.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Vakir

I like how you measured relative concepts that may be portrayed totally different for the sake of dramatic effect with your HEAD that can't do that as opposed to what was laid out for you, questionable source or not.

Questionable source means it's not something to be taken at face value. When it comes to which is the better machine, I consider the show a better indicator. It hasn't shown anything yet that indicates that the energy wing on the Lancelot somehow works better, feather spam aside, from that on the Guren.

Originally Posted by Vakir

I thought the Shen-Hu was roughly equal to the the Guren Kashoshiki regardless of the energy outage and Bismarck absolutely destroyed the Shen-Hu?

The Shenhu is better, they pretty much say so, Xingke just can't push it to the limit.