(L) Toradora! Novel Discussion

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

She gave Ami a light slap. I didn't think it was that out of line or upsetting as she was being pretty rude.

I wouldn't call it a "light slap" when the novel described Ami's face as being tinted "bright red". Sure Ami stepped out of line, but it's not like Taiga doesn't have a sharp tongue either, so the fact that Taiga was the first to resort to physical violence says a lot about her character.

Taiga is not that physical violent. Snap out of it. Ask any other novel reader and he/she will tell - she can get physical, no one doubts that but she isnt as physical really.

Reviewing the novels again I'm noticing that Taiga gets progressively physically abusive in the later novels towards Ryuji. In volume 3 Taiga kicked Ryuji in the rear for waking her up late due to circumstances (page 46 if anyone even wants to confirm themselves as Ryuji said "ケツを蹴るな!" - lit "don't kick my butt!)), there were scenes of her body-slam and choking/hanging off Ryuji's neck in volume 5 (page 26) just as I'm reading it now - the usual slapstick. It's probably a matter of editors stepping in to add more hook to catering to the core group, the anime in this sense is just reconning the later bits and making the character personality more consistent instead of dailing it up as the plot progresses.

Final note to Darknemo2000 again - sorry but I AM a novel reader, and thus far it seems that I'm the only one in this thread that is actually WAY ahead of the English translations (which is what? not even at the end of volume 2? - whereas I'm on 5 already). Seriously anyone who's only following the English translation does not have enough info to make claims to how JC Staff "screwed it". So who are these people that support these claims that Taiga are not physically violent and how far have they read? And if you do, please bring up facts to support or rufte points like I do instead of making general blanket statements, thanks.

[Darknemo2000]

Actually I am on volume 5 as well. Will start volume 6 soon... Don't have much time because I am also ZnT novel translator on B-T.

No one said that Taiga is totally non-violent but her most agressiveness come from words rather than actions, and the instances you mentioned for mee seem lighter than what she did to Ryuuji in the anime (kicking in the guts, trying to stab his eyes etc). Besides we are talking about many instances from many scenes that do not come one after another in anime 3rd episode they just come pouring down on you, making her look more bitchy (more physically violent) than in novels or manga.

PS. B-T novel translations are halfway through volume 4 at this moment (though volume 3 is still not fully finished but two translators working), so even english only readers are not that far behind you, you know.

[typhonsentra]

Personally I was more bothered by...

Spoiler:

The way both Taiga and Minori harassed Ami later in the book about her weight. Grabbing and groping like that, it gives people a complex and can lead to anorexia. She wasn't even fat.

[Anh_Minh]

Then again, they wouldn't have done it if Ami hadn't been a bitch to Taiga. Or left herself vulnerable by boasting about her diet.

[Darknemo2000]

Spoiler for Yes:

Yeah, that was pretty cruel from them. Also Taiga said a pretty cruelly put Ryuuji down for some time. Though again mostly it was based on verbal abuse rather than physical one.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

No one said that Taiga is totally non-violent but her most agressiveness come from words rather than actions, and the instances you mentioned for mee seem lighter than what she did to Ryuuji in the anime (kicking in the guts, trying to stab his eyes etc).

Again, it just seems to me that you're moving the goal post when it is convient to you. First you said she is not that abusive, then I present cases, and then you go it's not as bad as in the anime because the spots are different etc. Can we actually stick with some actual criteria?

Besides we are talking about many instances from many scenes that do not come one after another in anime 3rd episode they just come pouring down on you, making her look more bitchy (more physically violent) than in novels or manga.

But I've already argued that a) she was already bitchy in the novel anyway, which a handful of people just seem to be denying (including you), and b) being more physical does not make her more bitchy than the novle because her verbal insults *is* a form of bitchiness itself. In which your answer was that words aren't as bad as physical wounds - but that's not actually an answer to the point, because which is worse is subjective, some would argue that mental trauma is worse than physical wounds (a lowered self-esteem takes years to cure, whereas physical wounds heals in weeks) and vice versa, but it doesn't change anything about Taiga being bitchy unless you can prove/disprove that abusive words is not a form of bitchy action - which I'm certain that you can't.

PS. B-T novel translations are halfway through volume 4 at this moment (though volume 3 is still not fully finished but two translators working), so even english only readers are not that far behind you, you know.

Right...... so volume 3 is not fully finished but they are halfway through 4 and somehow that is considered not that far behind *when chapters in between are missing*?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

But I've already argued that a) she was already bitchy in the novel anyway, which a handful of people just seem to be denying (including you), and b) being more physical does not make her more bitchy than the novle because her verbal insults *is* a form of bitchiness itself. In which your answer was that words aren't as bad as physical wounds - but that's not actually an answer to the point, because which is worse is subjective, some would argue that mental trauma is worse than physical wounds (a lowered self-esteem takes years to cure, whereas physical wounds heals in weeks) and vice versa, but it doesn't change anything about Taiga being bitchy unless you can prove/disprove that abusive words is not a form of bitchy action - which I'm certain that you can't.

And you think physical wounds won't lower self-esteem?

I'm fine with calling Taiga ungrateful and bitchy, but sorry - physical violence is much worse than insults you can just ignore or walk away from.

[Darknemo2000]

houkoholic when I said she wasn't abusive I had in mind physical abusiveness, you have to be a total idiot to think that Taiga is not abusive at all. But she is more a dog that barks rather than a dog that bites. So no, goals are still in the same place it is juts you running around without a ball and kicking the air.

Anyways, to your point B I had already said that it is an open question if a physical violence means more abusive than verbal one or not, but it is generally considered (you can read many posts here and in Zero No Tsukaima thread) to be a sign of being more bitchy. You don't agree good for you but it is a matter of taste and you have to admit that majority of opinions lean that way that physical violence is more abusive than verbal one.

And yes they are not so far behind simply because the majority of volume is translated so even with missing gaps it is not that hard to be able to continue to volume 4 without much of problems.

[Deadwings]

I've just noticed, the author tells one exactly how is Taiga going to be in the little poem or verse or whatever at the beggining of the first novel.
Lol at me for not realising before

So Taiga is like a high security (extreme security maybe) chest guarding a soft and sweet treasure? lol Tiger treasure!

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Deadwings

I've just noticed, the author tells one exactly how is Taiga going to be in the little poem or verse or whatever at the beggining of the first novel.
Lol at me for not realising before

So Taiga is like a high security (extreme security maybe) chest guarding a soft and sweet treasure? lol Tiger treasure!

heh... hadn't noticed that -- a poetic version of my "crunchy on the outside, creamy on the inside" variant rather than the classical "linear tsundere".

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Vexx

heh... hadn't noticed that -- a poetic version of my "crunchy on the outside, creamy on the inside" variant rather than the classical "linear tsundere".

Something like it was in the beginning of the anime too.

I get the feeling that rather than just applying to Taiga, it's also meant to apply to Ryuuji, the guy that no one approaches but is really a kind and helpful who just can't stand leaving someone in need. Not to mention, you know, everyone else. The whole "appearances/first impressions can be deceiving" motif seems to be the main theme of the series.

[typhonsentra]

Some nice material at the beginning of Volume 4, Chapter 4.

Spoiler:

I can't believe people were saying it's vague whether or not Ami has feelings for Ryuuji. It seems pretty blunt here.

[msuwildog80]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Some nice material at the beginning of Volume 4, Chapter 4.

Spoiler:

I can't believe people were saying it's vague whether or not Ami has feelings for Ryuuji. It seems pretty blunt here.

I agree here wholeheartedly.

My wife was mentioning something to me one day. She said, of course she likes Ryuji, I asked her why is she so sure?
She replyed simply: its a romantic comedy novel and shes currently single. Since there are only 5 characters and she doesnt like Kit or the girls.. whose left? They went thru the trouble of creating a love interest for Kit, but didnt for Ami (tho future novels might change this).

At the end of the day, the rule seems to be, everyone likes somebody. Not much option for our dear characters at Toradora ;p

[houkoholic]

I'm continuing to see how violent Taiga is in the novel:

Spoiler:

More from volume 5, she kicked the boys in the class in the rear when they were egging her on to do her part for the play for the school festival. She beat Ryuji, continuously, with her school bag (Japanese school bags are made with leather and coated with several layers of paint and hard laminated, they are VERY hard and tough and it hurts being hit with one with books in it as it is literally a brick) when Ryuji wanted to talked to her about her father's requests, and the first thing that she did when she met her father was flying kneed him in the gut and called him a dirty stalker and told him to go die. Yeah, she is so not violent.

As for Ami:

Spoiler:

Her interest in Ryuji is part rivalry towards Taiga (she gets a kick out of pissing off Taiga) and part mischeavious towards Ryuji (Ryuji is one of the only two boys who knows her true personality and thus is not charmed by her fake perfect exterior). Ami is your standard character that is used to make the main couple realise their feelings for each other in love comedies, except in Ami's case, her feelings never goes beyond the passing interest stage, whereas a lot of the other shows these types of characters usually gets fully romantically involved, though one-sided in all cases. Plus instead of the usual "the rival in the end finally gives up and cheers both her love interest and arch-enemy on", Ami does that multiple times - she keeps telling Ryuji that his relationship with Taiga is strange and that he should rethink his position with Taiga, and Ami also keep on telling that Ryuji and Minorin is not for him, yet she never really tries to go as straight forward as to offer herself as a candidate for Ryuji, which is also what makes Ami slightly unusual for the role she plays.

Kitamura needed a love interest to justify his rejection of Taiga, so the introduction of Sumire is not a gone to the trouble thing but rather it was necessary for the plot.

Also finally Minorin's romantic feelings weren't developed either - in fact she half-jokingly said that she has yuri feelings towards Taiga in volume 9 to get Taiga to be honest with herself (when Taiga had fallen for Ryuji and is in conflict of her feelings towards Ryuji, her friendship with Minorin, as well as the budding friendship between Ryuji and Minorin), so the whole "someone must like someone" - in the romantic sense - doesn't really hold true in ToraDora, which is what makes this series slightly different than other such shows.

[Nukerjsr]

I have a question for the Novel Readers, is it explained how Minori and Taiga's friendship started or stands?

[msuwildog80]

@houkoholic

Thanks! very rare to get any future novel spoilers for this series (please keep on coming! how bout Ryuji's current situation?). It is very refreshing to know that the novelist doesnt go outside of the theme of Toradora. My biggest fear has always been that, in order to stretch things out, novel 6+ would be about every character hooking up with one another and entering the stages of hating one another. Again I cite American teen dramas as an example (90210, Dawsons creek, and so on). Those shows do not appeal to me because the it always ends with characters that are fundamentically scarred (example would be character with Aids that dies) by the end of the show's run.

With Toradora, I just want to enjoy teenage interactions and in a way, the wholesomeness of the situation. People on different forums always vaguely mention "dark" and "angst" when describing future novels without elaborating. So thanks!

[kittybear]

Am I the only one who supports AmiXRyuji?...(runs to my nuclear bunker)

[typhonsentra]

No, I kinda like that pairing, but the way she acts in my head while reading the books is probably a little different than the way the author intended it. I hope she's not too annoying in the show.

[Sinta]

interesting I was really under the impression that Ami had real feelings for Ruuji. It seems I stand corrected.

[roan]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I'm continuing to see how violent Taiga is in the novel:

Spoiler:

Also finally Minorin's romantic feelings weren't developed either - in fact she half-jokingly said that she has yuri feelings towards Taiga in volume 9 to get Taiga to be honest with herself (when Taiga had fallen for Ryuji and is in conflict of her feelings towards Ryuji, her friendship with Minorin, as well as the budding friendship between Ryuji and Minorin), so the whole "someone must like someone" - in the romantic sense - doesn't really hold true in ToraDora, which is what makes this series slightly different than other such shows.

Wasn't that in volume 5 and directed at Ryuji?