2012-10-17, 09:20 | Link #141 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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A GM have access to gm tools to check their databases and logs to investigate claims, and while they can certainly spawn/create items and whatnot using said tools, those are existing items in game - no GM can create a brand new item that never existed in the game before, complete with its own art assets, out of nowhere. GM are low level customer service employees, they are NOT game developers, they don't get to put their little hands all over the code and create/modify things. Quote:
I mean, just think, you make a GM call saying your character is stuck at so and so, and the GM responds "sorry dude, lemme fly over to the crystal tower first and get to the hidden room, my gm access panel is there" |
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2012-10-17, 10:23 | Link #142 | |
Moe Kyun~!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
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Second, the one Yui accessed was an EMERGENCY GM Access Panel, which means that it's for EMERGENCY purposes only, like when suddenly your GM Panel Options starts bugging, etc. Remember that the ONLY way we know to actually monitor / develop the game seems to be actually being there. Basically, saying that game objects aren't supposed to be created in SAO is like saying Windows 8 applications aren't supposed to be developed in Windows 8 (remember guys, they're proprietary and use only one software to build apps... and it ONLY utilizes Windows 8 for testing purposes duh.) Of course it's possible to create the game out-console, but isn't it more viable to do it in-console? ...oh and that idea of a GM or game dev would have log in to the game and use a in-game object to access their tool (or ever feel that such a thing would be necessary) is simply preposterous...? It's in the Eclipse MMO Engine (with a temporary GM/Mod/Developer item)... it's in the xtremeWorlds Engine (well not really but everything is done in-game -- as in the generic game client)... it's in many many more Engines actually...
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2012-10-17, 11:14 | Link #143 | ||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Moreover, game clients are just that, clients that access an application (the game) that is running on the game server, they are NOT software development programs. Your windows 8 analogy is off the mark, as win8 apps only need to be developed to WORK in win8, they aren't required to be developed IN win8. What you're suggesting is akin to creating a brand new level in Quake, complete with new artwork and 3d models, by entering programming codes in the game's command console. Good luck with that one. Quote:
Show me an actual commercial MMO that requires their GM to log into the game and go to a specific in-game location to use their tool, else I have a bridge to sell you too. |
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2012-10-17, 19:07 | Link #144 | |||
Moe Kyun~!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
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Anyway, Quote:
...but that's not the point I'm trying to get across... Quote:
And as a programmer, I think you're seriously undermining the abilities of so-called "programming code".... here's a clue: Objective-C and C#/MonoTouch drawing code. In other words, SAO is a Black Box. It shouldn't go as weird... well even the developer was weird... ...owait, what was the *original topic*?
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2012-10-17, 19:33 | Link #145 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I highly doubt the next photoshop or call of duty is going to be made by visual studio. Quote:
When you buy a copy of Crysis, it doesn't come with CryEngine. Quote:
The point here is, you can argue for what's theoretically possible, but it's important not to lose sight of what is actually practical. SAO is a commercial MMO, it's not some open source homebrew game. With commercial products comes certain design requirements and philosophies that needs to be followed. Can Argus have created an admin panel in game allowing GM and developer level access to the game? sure Does it make any sense for them to do so, or has any other developers of modern MMO done so? no way. It serves no benefit whatsoever, while only creates unnecessary liabilities. The only reason it's in SAO was to act as a plot device for the Yui side story. something about something |
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2012-10-17, 20:40 | Link #146 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Age: 31
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While with that I can at least have a (seriously quite lowbob) reason, the whole dungeon and position of the console is purely plot device. Let's be honest: Who the hell would fight his way through an entire dungeon (which costs at least 30 min of time) instead of simply logging out and using a normal GM prog for whatever bug/glitch/exploit he has found. Even in an emergency that is quite unfitting xD and there are much better places even I who doesn't have any real programming skills can think of. For example sth like a Floor 0 of Aincrad in which you could only get with a special teleport crystal (which ofc doesn't expire after usage) and on which the console is placed. Firstly this saves much more time, secondly it is "saver" as it is not part of the normal game. |
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2012-10-17, 22:44 | Link #147 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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What you seem to be missing is that to design new content for a MMO so do you need some way to view the actual results from the code you make. Now you seem to think that the developers would make some unique app specifically made for that. But there is already a program that does exactly what you want, the actual game. If you had a specialised app then it's quite possible that bugs in the game wont show up in it at all anyway. But all you need is some extra GM commands to manipulate the code of the game and some means to move around. GM's will generally have powers like invis, invulnerability, flight, teleport of different types etc. Now most coding will be done and tested in a test copy of the game, without any players around. But if a player notices a bug then a GM can log in, go to that player and talk to him about it. This bit is less common nowdays as any contact with players is usually handled by a PR department rather then actual GM's. |
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2012-10-18, 01:01 | Link #149 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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The way I see the emergency console thing, is that it isn't for standard GMs, but rather for admins and coders. Rather than simply a means to manipulate the game world, it's a full up remote access terminal for the server itself as well. I can think of a few reasons why the might want or need a possible means of accessing the server while still logged in.
That kind of access isn't something you'd want to build into the accounts either. An error setting up your new GM's privileges could give them full access to the server, or a hacker that managed to figure out how to give their character elevated privileges would get access. Better to have it in a fixed location and only able to be activated by the appropriate accounts. |
2012-10-18, 03:23 | Link #150 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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There is one very important detail which is different in a VRMMO game compared to a MMO game. In a MMO game you can always walk away from the game whenever you want. In a VRMMO the only way to quit the game is to log out.
If the log out function and GM abilities build in the menu don't work it would be logical to have a ingame console as a last resort. Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-10-18 at 03:49. |
2012-10-18, 06:39 | Link #151 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Age: 31
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because let's be honest: all support member + gms + developers inside the game at the same time, while the logout button doesn't function...that's less possible than winning the jackpot in the lottery. |
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2012-10-18, 08:24 | Link #152 | |||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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However, what GMs can do are extremely limited, not to mention they don't need to go to a specific place to access their tools. They also CANNOT cut away a portion of the game's code/subroutine, it's akin to a WoW GM logging in and taking out Ironforge. Quote:
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They have zero ability to actually change the game's codes. Quote:
You have a seriously distorted view of what GMs in MMOs are. Let me try again, they are NOT game developers, they are LOW LEVEL CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVES, they are the call center workers of MMOs. Saying that GMs can change the code of the game is like saying the guy working in a Dell call center in India can change the technical spec of Dell's upcoming products. Also, PR department handle promotions and media relations, they don't handle day-to-day customers services, you've got it all mixed up all over the place. Quote:
Fact of the matter is, the existence of the panel in SAO is solely for the purpose of being a plot device to move Yui's story along, it simply would never exist in a real-life MMO. Last edited by kyp275; 2012-10-18 at 08:34. |
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2012-10-19, 11:05 | Link #153 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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So given the amount of work the game is doing on itself while live, it makes sense that the admins would also need the ability to do their own updates while it's live, or access and change the server while logged into the live server. If Cardinal for example shut down NPC AI like it shut down Yui, I can see the admins verifying the problem wanting the ability to teleport to the nearest console to restart them instead of going through the hassle of logging out to do it. |
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2012-10-19, 17:27 | Link #154 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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I thought it was interesting that Kirito was *spoiler* shown to be a swordfighter previously to entering the game. Also shown was that he had kept most of his swordfighting skill despite not practicing for 2 years. Can NervGear be an effective training device? If the device were real, it could be used for practicing skill sports. Strength training would still be important (as NervGear doesn't train muscles - only the mind).
Gymnastics and diving come to mind. The main limitation is that the body can take only so much practice a day. NervGear would allow the mind to surpass the limits of the body. |
2012-10-19, 19:36 | Link #155 | |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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And don't forget, the mind has its limits too. You can be mentally exhausted just as much as you can be physically. A day full of training in RL, followed by a night full of training in VR sounds like a good way to burnout fast. Edit: And I think it's less that Kirito remembered his Kendo skills from two years ago, and more that he tried to apply what he learned in SAO to the real world. |
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2012-10-21, 02:41 | Link #157 | ||
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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As requested, moving to the appropriate thread.
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So, I think it has to be coded in beforehand, even if it wasn't a complete code. Maybe not in the ALO game itself, but deep in the very engine of it, such that even Cardinal does not consider it a bug or an issue (or simply out of its reach).
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2012-10-21, 02:47 | Link #158 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Also, as far as SAO and NervGear is concerned, while on the surface NervGear may not have appeared to have been built specifically for SAO, it's important to note that since Kayaba is the primary developer for BOTH, and considering that he's obviously planned this whole thing for quite awhile, it would be illogical to say that they weren't built for each other. |
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2012-10-21, 06:11 | Link #159 |
The Opened Ultimate Gate
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 29
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about the bug fixing thing, GM can not fix bug or change the code of the game, it programmer's job. and they don't get into the game, find the bug and fix it on the spot. they get into the game, find the bug, get out of the game, open the source code, find the bad code and fix it.
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2012-10-21, 09:54 | Link #160 |
M9000
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SBC Gurokken
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Nobody really does that. There are ticket systems. Players or GMs will submit bug reports. GMs may act as a filter at this stage. Programmers will look at open bug tickets and if it's something that can be reproduced they will try to fix it. Then it's time to test the fix. Successful fixes will be merged into the main code base used for the current test build. Every once in a while a set of such fixes will be pushed, together with new features that have been tested, from the test build to the live build. Some MMOs allow regular players with an active subscription access to the test builds also (EVE, WoW both do this for instance) because this way the company gets a free army of testers and the players get to play with the new features earlier - it's a win-win situation.
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