2010-07-07, 18:48 | Link #13361 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
The confetti thing at the beginning of EP4 is probably more like her real self.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 18:52 | Link #13362 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Notice how the behaviour of early, trolling Beatrice, resembles the behaviour of a child tearing wings off flying insects and watching them suffer, torturing small animals, tying empty cans to a cat's tail... Not so much out of malice as because of being incapable of telling right from wrong, behaviour of a solitary creature not formed by a society of any kind. All those atrocities do not look like those of someone who lost their humanity, but rather, like those of someone who doesn't have it yet. It takes Virgilia to humble Beatrice at all, Battler is certainly not capable of it himself. Then comes something like a mental equivalent of puberty, I imagine, where she is suddenly forced to recognise that other people (Battler) hold certain views, and she can't just go into their brain and flip the switch if she wants to play with them. The major reason for us to treat her differently is the realisation that it is close to impossible for whoever Beatrice is to have actually committed any murders, which actually kind of divorces Meta-Beatrice from any possible onboard person who is her. And that renders Meta-Beatrice completely harmless, whatever she may imagine in her solipsist vision of the world. Also remember that Ep1-2 are supposed to have been written by a different author. Maybe it's Featherinne who hates Bern and likes Beato?...
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:00 | Link #13363 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
And yet, Beatrice has existed for a thousand years (in Meta-time). She seems to have been aware of other witches for quite a while now, and there's that whole background to the Meta-World we keep hearing about, with Pendragon, the Witches' Senate, Heaven...
The Beatrice who was created to love Battler may be recent, yes, but Meta-Beatrice is (probably) an aggregate of all the 'real' Beatrices. I don't think you can say that she was "just being a child", especially since Bern and Lambda imply that all immortals are like this. Hell, they even reference several books with similar themes. (Also, not all children act that way, and those that do generally end up as what we like to call "problem children".) Of course, what REALLY makes no sense is Virgilia's silly, trollish behaviour, which is forgotten entirely after Ep4. She ordered the stakes to do it. On a reread, it's obvious that it was just to try and force him to figure out her mystery, but, still, murdering him? Are we really supposed to just forget about that ever happening? |
2010-07-07, 19:10 | Link #13364 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:14 | Link #13366 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
As for Beatrice's actions: she decided to play the role of an evil witch in order to make Battler not believe in the fantasy and aspire to find the truth. When Bern decided to corrupt that to her own desire to kill Beatrice, she misled Ange into getting Battler to think that the best way to fight against Beatrice is to just throw whatever he could think of and see what hits and misses. It turned into a battle to deny witches rather than trying to find the truth. Beatrice couldn't give up her role though because then Battler wouldn't be motivated to find the answer. This is obvious enough from EP 3, where he nearly signed his death warrant if Beatrice didn't go back to playing the evil witch. When it comes to Bern and Lambda? Spoiler for EP 6:
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:14 | Link #13367 |
...
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
^ ninja'd :0
Well, in a theory of mine I stated that Beatrice might have been that fierce to provoke Battler to find the answers and create a hate against witches so that he won't stop fighting. But Bern could be doing the same now with her uuuugh I'm soooo evil mode.. thing is, you can twist the thing as much as you want and still get both answers, kind of. Or maybe it's none of them. Last edited by Auria; 2010-07-07 at 19:33. |
2010-07-07, 19:15 | Link #13368 |
Wild Speculator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
|
Well, if all immortals act like that, maybe that's why she naively thinks those actions are acceptable ie all the immortals are like crazy immoral brats? A thousand years of getting away with trolling her toys and then having to finally really interact with a normal-ish person could finally force her to realize she's doing things wrong?
|
2010-07-07, 19:18 | Link #13369 | |
...
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:19 | Link #13370 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
That's probably the logic she has. It's not fun to break a toy if you can't fix it, but it doesn't matter if you break something over and over if it's just going to be fixed when your done. Also Lambda called her a temporary witch in that tea party you were talking about so she's definitely not as old as she says. 1000 years is probably a metaphor for how long she's been waiting. I think the whole cruelty thing is a bluff. It's a cover she puts up to make herself look bigger than she really is. Like a moth that scares predators away by disguising itself to look like an owl.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:19 | Link #13371 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
The elephant in the room, of course, is that this could just be authorial development over the course of writing things and discarding some ideas while working more intensively on others.
There's no way he has every aspect of the series planned from the start.
__________________
|
2010-07-07, 19:30 | Link #13372 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
It's just like saying "a witch did it". It doesn't really explain anything by itself, you know? Quote:
Well, that perfectly justifies their actions, but, then, why are we told early on that all witches are cruel, heartless, eternally bored beings? I'm not comfortable with a narrative that keeps retconning itself, which I suppose is why I am comfortable with pretending the Meta-World doesn't exist. In all, I'm more inclined to believe that it's this. Maybe Ryukishi fell in love with Beato's character while writing and decided to make her into a good person, changing the story to reflect that fact. |
||
2010-07-07, 19:39 | Link #13373 | |||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Meta-Beatrice is an aggregate of all the entities bearing or using the name 'Beatrice' for their own ends, and exists entirely inside Battler's mind. As he slowly becomes aware of new facts and interpretations of situations previously observed (ostensibly through Meta-Beatrice, but actually, through other means -- imagine that Meta-Battler is actually reading stories with himself, or rather, what the author thinks of him, as the hero. With footnotes that give rise to the red text. He's imagining the metaworld activities to give shape to his thoughts as it makes it easier to convey them to us, in turn.) and forgets others, his interpretation of the entire Beatrice conglomerate changes, and so does Meta-Beatrice as an expression of that interpretation. We may think whatever we like, but Battler did forget all that ever happened, or rather, he doesn't think it was quite so important anymore.
__________________
|
|||
2010-07-07, 19:45 | Link #13374 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
Quote:
I remember in EP6 or EP5, someone saying how "even 6 years could feel like 1000 years if you're waiting" ... for someone you love, was it? Or waiting for a promise? Worth going back into the game, but I remember reading something like this leading me to realize how Beatrice could be created 6 years ago and yet insist she was 1000 years old. Because I was suspicious of her actually being 1000 years old since she didn't act like it... |
|
2010-07-07, 19:46 | Link #13375 | |
fire of fires
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
|
Quote:
A slight tangent, but this may be a reference to isolation chambers and the like. If you're in a locked space with absolutely nothing in it, boredom will literally kill you. You'll hallucinate, panic, etc. Sometimes leads to death, even. This would require a lot of trolling. We already know Featherine is trolling Ange- if she's trolling Bern too, whose side is she on? Is she on her own side? (And if that's the case, what can she gain from all this?) |
|
2010-07-07, 19:49 | Link #13376 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2010-07-07, 19:54 | Link #13377 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Supposing that Beatrice represents a fictional character, then there's a more literal interpretation. Six years ago, someone on the island created the character Beatrice who has lived for a thousand years in their story.
__________________
|
2010-07-07, 19:56 | Link #13378 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
If neither Shannon nor Jessica could love Battler from his statement in EP6 then basing the portrait off of the character of that type of person, and embellishing it would be ideal. The portrait is said to have appeared in 1984 so there are no contradictions.
__________________
|
2010-07-07, 19:57 | Link #13379 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Any of the characters described as witches, with the sole exception of Virgilia, very clearly seem to lack generally altruistic motives altogether -- when they do something that benefits someone else, it's not because they would help anyone, it's because the someone is special for them or because they are ultimately pushing for a goal of their own.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-07, 19:57 | Link #13380 | |||
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
At that point we were only introduced to three witches. Also at that time, Beatrice was still acting as the cruel witch. The only time she didn't act that way was in the presence of someone like Virgilia or Ronove only. In EP 4 we even see her feeling sorry for trolling Battler, when he isn't around. Why would she lie then? I don't agree with that in the least. Even in EP 2 you see signs of her acting if you look close enough. The scene where she says a human's promise is the most unreliable thing is especially telling after you go through EP 5. |
|||
|
|