Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

When mechanics work on a mobile suit, they would know if the pilot is of FAITH if they need to know. Otherwise, it's just like any other mobile suit.

He specified in battles. And considering the large-scale battles CE gets involved in, things like that can get pretty chaotic for everyone involved, so it would help.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Sure would like their citations for that, since Gundam wiki is bloody notorious for false information. And lo and behold, both of the excerpts you took from it lack proper citations for their info, when all of the media thus far have said it was the N-Jammer Canceler that got banned from use on mobile suits.

Originally Posted by monster

The NJC was banned.

What media? I've already asked you for this. If you have some other source then show it to me. Am I really being that unreasonable?

You're the ones making a claim that NJC has been banned. It's up to you to prove it.

Spoiler for monster:

The rest of the Orb government wouldn't either because of the ban.

Lol.

And that's all that matters. Now let's move on.

You're your just going to completely ignore logic just because you feel like it?

No, I'm afraid it does matter. The point you maid was that MAD wasn't a factor becuase the EA didn't care about the conseuunces. That point is false as I have shown.

Uh, no, again, Yzak's mother addressed that in her speech. They knew it was coming.

They knew EA would launch a strike sooner or later and that ZAFT needed to destroy them first before the EA destroyed them. That doesn't mean they knew that nuclear strike was coming. Hence why they were surprised.

And it was a success.

One success =/= almost a certainty.

It's not the truth when it never happened.

They practically said it themselves that they only just made it in time. So yeah, it is true.

Where did you get that information? And please use official source instead of an unofficial wiki.

It's called logic and reasoning. Why would they build the GENESIS if they didn't suspect the EA might be able to use nuclear weapons again? Shits and giggles? Why do you think they built a giant weapon they had no intention of using until the nuclear strikes happened?

They didn't think they need to, especially with the Destroys. Nope, after the loss of Orb's mass driver, the EA blamed Freedom and Justice for slowing them down. Orb wasn't even a factor. So they obviously didn't think it's impossible to get whatever they want from Orb.

And where are you getting that information from I wonder? Orb can destroy it's own Mass driver any time it wants. Freedom and Justice have nothing to do with it.

The objective is to destroy the PLANTs. Using nuclear weapons/Requiem at the PLANTs help them achieve that objective

And how does limiting nuclear weapons at only PLANT and not any other ZAFT targets help? That's what I was asking remember?

Like Uzumi was willing to sacrifice himself.

They don't actually have to go through with it you know. That's kinda the whole point of it being a deterrence.

The EA wasn't looking for it and didn't need it.

So point proven then. Orb can hide and destory whatever they want. The EA isn't going to get anything out of Orb.

If you don't think you can win against a potential aggressor, then you shouldn't aggravate them.
That makes sense to me.

You know what also makes sense? Deterring them if you think you can. Something you yourself accepted. Now you're saying no to that to? Then what was the point of this debate if you weren't going to accept that anyway?

Yeah, but it's irrelevant. We don't always wait until we have to do it.

For a complete 180 turn when there's no danger yet? Your point was that they had to and accepted that if they didn't need to then they shouldn't have. That's what you said.

Well, here's my point:

The EA has attacked Orb with no provocation. With that experience, Orb, especially with the Seirans' influence, doesn't have a reason to believe that they could deter an attack from the EA. Given that perspective, joining the EA helps them to stay on the EA's good side.

No that wasn't you're point. When I gave reasons as to why Orb can reasonably think they can deter the EA (EA won't get anything out of it and have no reason to attack Orb at all) you said they wouldn't come to that conclusion because of that perspective you are know saying rests on them believing they can't deter the EA. That is circular logic.

Either:

1) They have thought through the reasons have have come to the conclusion that the EA will invade them if they don't join.

or

2) The idea of the EA invading them if they don't join prevents them from considering any other perspective.

You can't have it both ways.

Of course. The whole point is that IF the EA had a reason to attack Orb, Orb wasn't strong enough to deter them.
Thus, joining the EA was a preemptive move so that the EA would not have a reason to attack.

So Orb deterred ZAFT then.

And with the proper reasons Orb could deter EA. Point proven.

Spoiler for Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

But they do, Orb was afraid of the EA's military after what happened in SEED.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't consider deterrence. Like I said with monster, either you say that the invasion prevented them from considering deterrence, or they already came to the conclusion they couldn't deter the EA.

But they did, After the Attha's ran the country into the ground with the previous war with the EA in Seed, of course the opposition (in this case the Seirans) are going to rise in power, it's like that in pretty much every war. Mubarak(or was it Qadaffi?) recently got overthrown, even though he had been in power for decades. same thing with the revolutions all over the world, if a country is unhappy with its leadership, things will change, most of the time it simply happens with a election.

But in Orb, them taking the power from cagalli simply meant they had the power over her, we arent given enough details to speculate how retarded Orbs parliament is, only that people wear purple coats, oh, and the 5 royal families and all.

Those lead to official changes in power. The Seiran's power was never official. There was no poular uprising. Cagalii was still legally the chief representative. The Seirans had more influence but not legally. Their ideals were never stronger than Uzumi's and there's nothing in the story to suggest it was. And no, the fact tha the treaty happened isn't proof of that because it could just as easily be an out of character plot hole as i keep saying and the fact that he treaty happened isn't proof that it's for the reasons you say it did. Give me, something, anything, in the show that specifically the Seirans following their own traditional motto which is on the same level as Uzumi's. Give one piece of info that suggests the people had decided to abandon thei culture they apparently held onto throughout enduring times.

I've already made this point.

Also we don't know how the cultural impact was in Orb when the seirans took over, if anything, they could've been running the same type of politics as Uzumi did when he was in charge, with a slight change in military interventions and international politics.

If we don't know anything then I can only assume nothing has changed unless shown otherwise. Remember there's nothing to suggest the Seirans' foreign policy ideas popular with the people.

But your point is meaningless since you have nothing to back it up with except your own opinions? you've made your point clear several times, it's all talk and no context though, thats the part you don't seem to get. Stop crying wolf and your opinion might carry a tad bit of weight in the future.

So you at least understand what my point is right? Thank the freaking lord...

No, he said it wouldn't be the same as heliopolis, he never said anything about complete annihilation, out of the way he acted, one can assume he wouldnt be stupid enough to go in guns blazing with 4 mobile suits and a submarine against a fully armed country.

No? He didn't mention ZAFT at all? Funny I could've sworn he did.

He never said anything about complete annihilation but Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen, hence why he never said it. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.

No, Logic isnt based on opinion, logic is based on cold logical facts, your opinion is not logical, you are not Spock or vulcan by any means.

Dude. If I say you haven't provided any evidence to say that the Seirans have the amounth of legal and cultural power you think they do, then that's not an opinion. It's either true or it isn't. The evidence is either there or it isn't.

And anyway, why is my opinion not logical? All you've said is that it's just my opinion. You never actually addressed the logic my opinion rests on.

But i've denied things several times and even quoted episodes when your opinion/facts clearly don't hold up, but you only call BS, ignore them and keep repeating the same thing.

Because all you're doing is denying it and just saying it's opinion.

Also: Wikia is the worst place to use as a source seeing how entire pages of there are pure fanfic/fan speculations without any official material, you'd be better off linking to 4chan. and that should tell you something about the wikia quality

And yet it's still better than your fan speculations...

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

He specified in battles. And considering the large-scale battles CE gets involved in, things like that can get pretty chaotic for everyone involved, so it would help.

Even in battle, the mechanics would have access to the pilots themselves.

Originally Posted by Haak

What media? I've already asked you for this. If you have some other source then show it to me. Am I really being that unreasonable?

You're the ones making a claim that NJC has been banned. It's up to you to prove it.

On GundamOfficial's listing for Junius Treaty, it said: "The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons."

The point you maid was that MAD wasn't a factor

That is indeed my point.

They knew EA would launch a strike sooner or later and that ZAFT needed to destroy them first before the EA destroyed them. That doesn't mean they knew that nuclear strike was coming. Hence why they were surprised.

They knew, hence why Yzak's mother mentioned nuclear weapons in her speech.

One success =/= almost a certainty.

One success with a huge loss to your side can be enough to make you think of another plan.

They practically said it themselves that they only just made it in time. So yeah, it is true.

?

It's called logic and reasoning. Why would they build the GENESIS if they didn't suspect the EA might be able to use nuclear weapons again? Shits and giggles? Why do you think they built a giant weapon they had no intention of using until the nuclear strikes happened?

They built GENESIS to destroy the EA fleet, if not Earth's population itself

And where are you getting that information from I wonder? Orb can destroy it's own Mass driver any time it wants. Freedom and Justice have nothing to do with it.

From their own experience. Freedom and Justice helped to buy some time for Orb to regroup at Kaguya.

And how does limiting nuclear weapons at only PLANT and not any other ZAFT targets help? That's what I was asking remember?

The PLANTs is what they want to destroy completely. The Destroys are enough for the Earth, where they can rebuild and repopulate.

They don't actually have to go through with it you know. That's kinda the whole point of it being a deterrence.

Some people wouldn't risk it after what happened in SEED.

So point proven then. Orb can hide and destory whatever they want. The EA isn't going to get anything out of Orb.

What they wanted was the mass driver, Morgenroette, and the surrender of Orb. So they got 1 out of 3 last time and they were shown to be confident that they could've won if it wasn't for Freedom and Justice.

You know what also makes sense? Deterring them if you think you can. Something you yourself accepted. Now you're saying no to that to? Then what was the point of this debate if you weren't going to accept that anyway?

If they had any reason to believe that, then sure. But the fact is, they did not think that they could.

For a complete 180 turn when there's no danger yet? Your point was that they had to and accepted that if they didn't need to then they shouldn't have. That's what you said.

I would say that they made a hasty decision.

But, since they obviously didn't think they had a way to deter an EA attack, even though the threat wasn't there yet, I also accept that they joined the EA as a preemptive move.

No that wasn't you're point. When I gave reasons as to why Orb can reasonably think they can deter the EA (EA won't get anything out of it and have no reason to attack Orb at all) you said they wouldn't come to that conclusion because of that perspective you are know saying rests on them believing they can't deter the EA. That is circular logic.

Either:

1) They have thought through the reasons have have come to the conclusion that the EA will invade them if they don't join.

or

2) The idea of the EA invading them if they don't join prevents them from considering any other perspective.

You can't have it both ways.

There are two things here:

1. What you're proposing (that EA won't get anything out of it and have no reason to attack Orb at all) is not something that Orb could guarantee on their end. In SEED, the EA did not have a reason to attack Orb until they found one.

2. Assuming the EA did find themselves a reason to attack Orb, again, Orb's experience in SEED tells them they couldn't deter an attack from the EA.

So Orb deterred ZAFT then.

And with the proper reasons Orb could deter EA. Point proven.

Orb deterred a ZAFT ship who was only there for the Archangel. They did not deter an EA fleet who was there for Orb.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

When mechanics work on a mobile suit, they would know if the pilot is of FAITH if they need to know. Otherwise, it's just like any other mobile suit.

Originally Posted by monster

Even in battle, the mechanics would have access to the pilots themselves.

So? Your arguments still don’t erase all possibilities that FAITH insignia can be useful in identifying an MS in some capacity, no matter how small it is. You basically only said “there are other/better ways of identifying a MS” which in itself doesn’t mean that FAITH insignia is entirely useless. For example, both lamps and candles can be used for lighting. Just because lamps are better doesn’t mean candles are useless. In some emergency situations, even candles can be useful, just like FAITH insignia on MSs.

Originally Posted by monster

The anime uses them to differentiate the models.

Originally Posted by monster

To be more clear, by models, I meant models for Gunpla.

Originally Posted by monster

Yeah, but they make a good excuse. Those HORNS, kids must eat them up.

Speaking about Zaku horns, here’s a little evidence for you that the horns is more about “commander thing” than just a merchandise excuse.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

See the picture of those two Black Tri-Star Zakus? Those are exactly one and the same model, but with the option to add horn to its head. Why? Because the commander wears the horn on his Suit while the other two are not since they’re not commanders (unlike what you said that the horns are made just to distinguish different models). And this is a brand new kit. I purposefully gave you the most recent example so that the data is still fresh and relevant. This is just one out of many examples. So, the gunpla thing that you mentioned actually support my argument.

Originally Posted by monster

Yeah, go earn that money and buy some (more?) Gundam merchandise.

You don't have to worry about me. I'm good :P.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Haak

That doesn't mean they shouldn't consider deterrence. Like I said with monster, either you say that the invasion prevented them from considering deterrence, or they already came to the conclusion they couldn't deter the EA.

Coming to a conclusion or not, they signed the treaty.

Those lead to official changes in power. The Seiran's power was never official.

Murasame pilot during the attack on Minerva. The Seirans where in charge.

There was no poular uprising. Cagalii was still legally the chief representative. The Seirans had more influence but not legally.

Honestly, we don't know how Orb's political laws are laid out, they where in charge at the time, nothing points towards something else.

Their ideals were never stronger than Uzumi's and there's nothing in the story to suggest it was. And no, the fact tha the treaty happened isn't proof of that because it could just as easily be an out of character plot hole as i keep saying and the fact that he treaty happened isn't proof that it's for the reasons you say it did. Give me, something, anything, in the show that specifically the Seirans following their own traditional motto which is on the same level as Uzumi's.

Honestly, one can argue what their motto was, but it wasnt the same as Uzumi's, as shown when they signed the treaty to begin with, Other than that, we can speculate what their motto is, but thats a other subject. Bad characters doesnt equal plot holes.

Give one piece of info that suggests the people had decided to abandon thei culture they apparently held onto throughout enduring times.

As we've both agreed on, there is nothing showing how it affected the civilians, the military was clearly under the Seiran's control. As the Murasame's pilot said before he attacked the Minverva.

I've already made this point.

No, you've been spewing nonsense for quite some time, that's not making a point.

If we don't know anything then I can only assume nothing has changed unless shown otherwise. Remember there's nothing to suggest the Seirans' foreign policy ideas popular with the people.

Indeed, seeing how there is no material at all regarding the Orb civilians under the Seirans rule, lets leave it at that.

So you at least understand what my point is right? Thank the freaking lord...

i understand the point you are trying to make, but it's still nonsense since it doesnt hold up according to what the show has told us.

No? He didn't mention ZAFT at all? Funny I could've sworn he did.

He didn't, not during the submarine conversation, he mentioned contacting carpentaria to apply pressure on Orb, thats it.

He never said anything about complete annihilation but Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen, hence why he never said it. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.

Once again, not going to repeat this entire conversation again for the 19th? time. Athrun was in charge, he was not going to authorize a brute force attack on Orb just because Yzak and Dearka wanted one.

Athrun did not want to make a enemy out of Orb, as he said, in the end it would be a diplomatic matter for their nation (Zaft and Orb).

Athrun also made it very clear that attacking orb wouldnt be like Heliopolis:

to which dearka said:

Athrun:


TLR?
Athrun: Dearka, we're not going to attack an entire nation because of one ship and one mobile suit.

Dude. If I say you haven't provided any evidence to say that the Seirans have the amounth of legal and cultural power you think they do, then that's not an opinion. It's either true or it isn't. The evidence is either there or it isn't.

Agreed, since we have no evidence regarding Orb civilians, lets disregard that. We do know the Seirans had control over the Military (and the government, otherwise the treaty wouldnt have been signed), Was there anything else?





Quoted from the Murasame pilot doing a angry Murasame fist. The country starayed off Uzumi/Orb's path, and are ran by the Seirans, we know there is some change(obviously for the worse) but we don't know all of it.

And anyway, why is my opinion not logical? All you've said is that it's just my opinion. You never actually addressed the logic my opinion rests on.

Because you've either forgotten the show or you are flat out ignoring it. you are sitting there making a statement about a show without having anything to back it up, the few parts you've brought up to strenghten your argument doesn't support it at all. it rather proves it wrong (Like your entire ordeal about Athrun, Zaft's army and your misunderstanding of him saying he was going to use Zaft's full force against Orb). If you want to bring up something up regarding the show, atleast make sure you remember the whole thing so you can quote time and episode if needed.

Because all you're doing is denying it and just saying it's opinion.

Because you have nothing else except your own opinion to back it up with, please, provide episode/time to back up your statements and i'll gladly rewatch the episode to see if you are right or not, however, you simply stating " its this " without having anything to base it on is flat out silly.

And yet it's still better than your fan speculations...

i'm sorry, But that's pathetic of you. Me quoting the show equals fan speculations when you use other peoples fanfics/speculations as a source? That comment makes you look like a desperate child who just got his candy taken away.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So? Your arguments still don’t erase all possibilities that FAITH insignia can be useful in identifying an MS in some capacity

Of course not, you're making statements that are nearly devoid of absolutes that it's almost impossible to refute. At the same, it's also of little significance. Again, if the mechanics need to know that the pilots are of FAITH, they will know, and they will also know which mobile suit belongs to him.

Speaking about Zaku horns, here’s a little evidence for you that the horns is more about “commander thing” than just a merchandise excuse.

You do know that the two things are not mutually exclusives, right?

And I never actually argued that the horns were not used to differentiate between commanders and non-commanders.

[Rising Dragon]

monster, you're ignoring details of the argument to try and prove your point.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

monster, you're ignoring details of the argument to try and prove your point.

Which details did I ignore?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Of course not, you're making statements that are nearly devoid of absolutes that it's almost impossible to refute. At the same, it's also of little significance. Again, if the mechanics need to know that the pilots are of FAITH, they will know, and they will also know which mobile suit belongs to him.

Then you fail to get my point. I count all possibilities of FAITH insignia to be able to help ZAFT officers by giving certain info about the MS during emergency when the system doesn’t support them or when they’re in the face of chaos. While you just instantly brush it off as “useless” by saying the people has “other ways”. It doesn’t work that way.

Originally Posted by monster

You do know that the two things are not mutually exclusives, right?

Of course I know. That’s why I said “more about “commander thing” than just a merchandise excuse.”

Originally Posted by monster

And I never actually argued that the horns were not used to differentiate between commanders and non-commanders.

Really? If you’re not arguing against my opinion, then what’s this reply for? (after you quoted me)

Originally Posted by monster

The anime uses them to differentiate the models.

Just you typing a sentence for the sake of it?

You also not make yourself clear whether you agree or disagree with that certain point of mine. Just giving one sentence about Gunpla when I was talking about an element in the story.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then you fail to get my point. I count all possibilities of FAITH insignia to be able to help ZAFT officers by giving certain info about the MS during emergency when the system doesn’t support them or when they’re in the face of chaos.

And what information does the FAITH insignia give that the mechanics would need to know about the mobile suit? I don't think there are actual specialized FAITH-class mobile suits.

Of course I know. That’s why I said “more about “commander thing” than just a merchandise excuse.”

Really? If you’re not arguing against my opinion, then what’s this reply for? (after you quoted me)

Just you typing a sentence for the sake of it?

You also not make yourself clear whether you agree or disagree with that certain point of mine. Just giving one sentence about Gunpla when I was talking about an element in the story.

You asked why they have different horns/no horns. I answered that it's to differentiate the models (between commanders and non-commanders).

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

And what information does the FAITH insignia give that the mechanics would need to know about the mobile suit? I don't think there are actual specialized FAITH-class mobile suits.

To differentiate that this one MS (eg. Gouf) belong to FAITH while the one over there are not. So, during emergency when the system fails, if there’s some new mechanics who was asked to repair the FAITH suit first (before the other Goufs) in a hangar full of similar MSs, the FAITH sign would narrow down the option with just a glance. Surely, a glance is even faster than typing in a keyboard or pushing buttons. Thus, saving more time. How is that hard to understand? It was pretty simple: in a situation where only manual method works, people need manual clues. Just like how people operate under power outage or something like that.

And who said anything about FAITH-class mobile suit? This new discussion is derived from Skye's comments who stress that FAITH sign is even more useful for those Standard MSs.

Originally Posted by monster

You asked why they have different horns/no horns. I answered that it's to differentiate the models (between commanders and non-commanders).

I wasn’t asking you that. It was my point all along. You could just say you agree with it instead of coming out with the Gunpla thing which not what I was talking about.

Then you said the horns are used to differentiate different models. That’s not true (I already proved it). Both share similar model. The commander only added a horn. A single simple accessories like that doesn’t make it a different model. Or you want to deny the solid proof I just provided you?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

in a situation where only manual method works, people need manual clues. Just like how people operate under power outage or something like that.

Manual clues like actual people telling them the specific location of the mobile suit they need to repair? That's even faster than having the mechanics looking for a mobile suit with a certain insignia.

And who said anything about FAITH-class mobile suit? This new discussion is derived from Skye's comments who stress that FAITH sign is even more useful for those Standard MSs.

Which brings us back to the 2 Goufs example I gave you. So if the mechanics were told to repair a Gouf with FAIT insignia, he could come and find out there were multiple Goufs with the FAITH insignia.

You see, Skye629's example uses numbers and squadron insignia, which is fine. The numbers can help to tell which exact mobile in the hangar while the squadron insignia can help to tell if it's at the right hangar.

Neither of those is applicable to the FAITH insignia. (my original point)

The former (which mobile suit), because of the multiple Goufs example.

The second (which hangar), because FAITH is not an actual squadron. You could have a FAITH member at any, all, or no hangar. They're pretty much autonomous unless specifically ordered to be otherwise by the Chairman.

The commander only added a horn. A single simple accessories like that doesn’t make it a different model.

I just want to comment on this:

Admittedly, I don't buy models, but isn't the point of the horns to differentiate them? Say you buy all three of the same model and then you put a horn on one of them and pose all three of them somehow. Didn't you just differentiate the one with the horn from the other 2?

That's what I meant by differentiating the models.

[Znozzy]

have we ever had a case in SEED/DESTINY when the IFF didn't work?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Manual clues like actual people telling them the specific location of the mobile suit they need to repair? That's even faster than having the mechanics looking for a mobile suit with a certain insignia.

You saying it like everything can be under control every time, while my example is when it’s chaotic and people get under intense pressure. Have you seen Pearl Harbor? When “shit happens”, even a trained doctors can get nervous and can’t tell which medicine is which. The nurses have to remind them again and again and assist them. Apply that to the mechanics under pressure then they’ll need all the help they can got, and yes, even a simple thing like FAITH insignia can provide a little assistance. Yes, FAITH insignia can be useless often times, but not every time.

Originally Posted by monster

Which brings us back to the 2 Goufs example I gave you. So if the mechanics were told to repair a Gouf with FAIT insignia, he could come and find out there were multiple Goufs with the FAITH insignia.

If the mechanic’s order is just to “repair the FAITH Goufs” then he can just fix both of them. Deal with the one who suffer the more damage first or something like that (given he has no other clues).

Originally Posted by monster

The second (which hangar), because FAITH is not an actual squadron. You could have a FAITH member at any, all, or no hangar. They're pretty much autonomous unless specifically ordered to be otherwise by the Chairman.

Exactly. Even more so with Standard FAITH MSs who can park from hangar to hangar with different squadrons and mechanics. The seal will be even more useful since they can’t avoid parking beside MSs of the same type and color sometimes (but non-FAITH).

Originally Posted by monster

I just want to comment on this: Admittedly, I don't buy models, but isn't the point of the horns to differentiate them? Say you buy all three of the same model and then you put a horn on one of them and pose all three of them somehow. Didn't you just differentiate the one with the horn from the other 2?

That's what I meant by differentiating the models.

Again, you’re talking from the Gunpla POV, while I was talking about in-story element. In the actual story, what define as “model” is the spec of the MS, not the different accessories they applied. If accessory was considered different model, then we’ll have thousands (or even millions) of different models of MSs from UC alone.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

have we ever had a case in SEED/DESTINY when the IFF didn't work?

Don't know. I think I'm just talking in the realm of possibilities?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

have we ever had a case in SEED/DESTINY when the IFF didn't work?

I believe they showed that the IFF won't work if the signals are jammed by Neutron Jammers (but I'm not sure on that) and they also don't work when the IFF hasn't been installed yet on a particular mobile suit, like in the case of Freedom when Kira stole it.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You saying it like everything can be under control every time, while my example is when it’s chaotic and people get under intense pressure. Have you seen Pearl Harbor? When “shit happens”, even a trained doctors can get nervous and can’t tell which medicine is which. The nurses have to remind them again and again and assist them. Apply that to the mechanics under pressure then they’ll need all the help they can got, and yes, even a simple thing like FAITH insignia can provide a little assistance. Yes, FAITH insignia can be useless often times, but not every time.

If the mechanic’s order is just to “repair the FAITH Goufs” then he can just fix both of them. Deal with the one who suffer the more damage first or something like that.

Exactly. Even more so with Standard FAITH MSs who can park from hangar to hangar with different squadrons and mechanics. The seal will be even more useful since they can’t avoid parking beside MSs of the same type and color sometimes (but non-FAITH).

Alright, then let's look at the fact that insignias are not standard issues on mobile suits. If you say that in emergency situations they need help to identify the mobile suits, then obviously they have more than adequate means of doing so without the insignias.

Again, you’re talking from the Gunpla POV, while I was talking about in-story element.

Okay.

If accessory was considered different model, then we’ll have thousands (or even millions) of different models of MSs from UC alone.

Hey, and that's good for business. That's the point of accessories, to create more customized things from fewer bases.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Alright, then let's look at the fact that insignias are not standard issues on mobile suits.

Yes, of course I know the fact that FAITH insignias are not standard issues on FAITH MSs. But that’s not what I’m arguing. My argument since this discussion start is that: there’s nothing wrong with FAITH member applying FAITH insignia on his/her MS, and in some cases, the insignia can make things easier. That’s the main point.

Originally Posted by monster

If you say that in emergency situations they need help to identify the mobile suits, then obviously they have more than adequate means of doing so without the insignias.

But of course. But that doesn’t mean the FAITH insignia is completely useless every time. Just like my “lamp vs. candle” analogy.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yes, of course I know the fact that FAITH insignias are not standard issues on FAITH MSs. But that’s not what I’m arguing. My argument since this discussion start is that: there’s nothing wrong with FAITH member applying FAITH insignia on his/her MS, and in some cases, the insignia can make things easier. That’s the main point.

But of course. But that doesn’t mean the FAITH insignia is completely useless every time. Just like my “lamp vs. candle” analogy.

If we take a "lamp vs candle" analogy as an example, then they should only use insignia if there is no other way. You don't light a candle when you have a working lamp, unles it's for some ceremonial purpose. Oh hey, that would fit the FAITH insignia as well: using it for ceremonial purpose like a parade or something.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

If we take a "lamp vs candle" analogy as an example, then they should only use insignia if there is no other way. You don't light a candle when you have a working lamp, unles it's for some ceremonial purpose.

My example is when the system fails, thus if we apply it to the “lamp vs. candle” analogy, it would be like this: for example, during a power outage, there’s more options to light the a room than just using candles. You can use flashlight, light-sticks, cellphones, etc. Still, that doesn’t mean candles will not be an option during such emergencies.

Originally Posted by monster

Oh hey, that would fit the FAITH insignia as well: using it for ceremonial purpose like a parade or something.

Considering that we’re talking in the realm of possibilities here, then why not? That will be one more function of the FAITH insignia .

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

My example is when the system fails, thus if we apply it to the “lamp vs. candle” analogy, it would be like this: for example, during a power outage, there’s more options to light the a room than just using candles. You can use flashlight, light-sticks, cellphones, etc. Still, that doesn’t mean candles will not be an option during such emergencies.

You do realize that we're talking about computerized weapons? There will always be a need for adequate power and working system somehow or they won't be able to ensure an adequate repair job.

So if that is your scenario, then it does not fit the state of CE mobile weapons. If they have more than adequate means of identifying mobile suits, that would include in emergency situations. The fact is that they don't rely on insignia at all (to the extent of Strike Rouge's and what is pictured with Destiny).

So, at this point, it's a matter of subjective taste from an in-story perspective or merchandising from a real world perspective.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

You do realize that we're talking about computerized weapons? There will always be a need for adequate power and working system somehow or they won't be able to ensure an adequate repair job.

So if that is your scenario, then it does not fit the state of CE mobile weapons. If they have more than adequate means of identifying mobile suits, that would include in emergency situations. The fact is that they don't rely on insignia at all (to the extent of Strike Rouge's and what is pictured with Destiny).

Yes, of course. My example always include powers in it in mind (you can read my previous posts that I never exclude power). As for the “lamp vs candle” scenario thing, it’s called an analogy for a reason. Of course it won’t exactly fit with the CE Mobile Weapons situation. Only the general idea does.

Originally Posted by monster

So, at this point, it's a matter of subjective taste from an in-story perspective or merchandising from a real world perspective.

I don’t think counting the possibilities can be solely related to taste. Science and security measures deal a lot with possibility. But even then, something unpredictable and beyond control can still happen (the world itself is your example). And when that happens, something you consider useless or trivial, can end up saving you. I don’t deny that FAITH insignia can be useless most of the times, still, I also don’t deny the possibility that it can be useful in certain situations. Never in my posts I suggest that FAITH insignia should be added to “ZAFT emergency devices 101”. It’s just things that may give you benefit, just like how some individuals from US’ Delta Force IRL wrote their specific blood type on a part of their bodies before going to battle just in case they need emergency and fast blood transfusion or things like that. There's no manual for that, just individual improvs. Just like FAITH members if they do want to paint the insignia on their MSs.

That said, yes it is my opinion that FAITH insignia can be useful and yes your opinion is that FAITH insignia is useless. We just use our logic to support our opinions, and I’m aware of that all this time.