(L) Starship Operators

[NoSanninWa]

It is a shame that this thread was entirely lost in the Dec2005 forum crash. I just saw episodes 10 and 11. Very intense, very interesting episodes. I'd like to add my commentary to what was there before. So, checking google's cache I find that some people were discussing these episodes in raws. I'll post my comments in the next post. This one will be devoted to resurrecting relevant posts from the old thread. First episode 10:

Originally Posted by bohemian

Spoiler for episode10:

your wish was granted, oyasan is now dead lol

I love to see more characters die though, let's go for the maximum angst

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

mmm....Episode 10 was fun.

Spoiler for episode 10:

Oyaasan's death was pretty pathetic.

He couldn't even aim that weapon, i suspect the little thing he was driving was a Cargo handler sorta thing, wasn't built for space combat. To go out that far, when they knew the enemy had a guided Rocket Launcher was stupid. he almost deserve to die, if it wasn't for Shino's "lovey-lovey" situation, ah, the first few months of a new relationship....
Lets hope this will make Shino a hard-bitten revenge dishing bitch, i love tough women. heh.

"Better to have loved and lost, then to have never loved at all..."

Banzai!

Not many comments really, but people had a lot more to say about episode 11:

Originally Posted by 7alski

Just saw episode 11. It's the best space battle ever.

Spoiler for episode 11:

1. Amaterasu vs. 5 ships!
2. Zero point turn using gravity well.
3. Amaterasu destroys 4 out of 5 ships in no more than 3 minutes.
4. Amaterasu is also heavily damaged, next episode will be Amaterasu vs. Kingdom's flagship Conquistador.

The physics part of the battle is just awsome

Originally Posted by dreamless

Spoiler for episode 11:

personally, I think the battle in this episode is a bit cheap, using gravity generator to counter the acceleration in fast turning is a nice idea, but why no one else think of that idea before? After all, with the warp technology and space folding gravity generator stuff, that kind of idea should be implemented widely already... I know their ships travel at around 150km/s and a fast turning could generate a million G acceleration or something, but countering a million G acceleration shouldn't be much problem with those stuffs that can do warp travels and generate visible space folding effects...

Originally Posted by wuliao

Spoiler:

If I rememebr correctly, the AI system on Amaterasu is a prototype. The officer in charge of the system is a regular military person unlike the other crew members. In that episode, I think they suggested the possibility of using the AI to perform the zero G turn as doing that stunt need quick and accurate calculation. Maybe the AI system is superior to the other AI systems currently in use and hence Amaterasu can perform that stunt while other ships can't do it presently.

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Spoiler for Ze Battle in Epizode 11:

For one thing, as been said, the effort to coordinate these maneuvers are extraordinarily high. If I recall correctly, even the AI said that they are beyond his normal operating capacity, for a prototype AI that surpasses DragonFly's AI for warp manipulation. As stated, any miscalculation will tear the ship apart due to the jarring effect of different extreme gravity fields. It also goes without saying that these extreme G on-the-spot turns result in severe stresses to the structural integrity of the ship, which likely resulted in the heavy damages to the Amateras at the end ( a few blasts from DragonFly is too light to cause component failures and reactors suffering burnouts ). All that said, the physical demands are great enough to deter any military committee from requiring all ships to practice such maneuvers.

Circumstances dictate that the idea for this plan would be likely to be borne out now. In the past, they only face one ship each time. The last battle, they faced four but had the crutch of an ally, ShenLong which hindered Shion's mindset and creativity. With their backs against the wall now ( run or fight, nope... we must fight ), Shion had to really push through all feasible and infeasible plans and this is the result they had.

That said, for Kingdom commanders, exception being Conquistador's captain, they suck. Readily falling into male chauvanistic pig roles and being too stubborn to acknowledge being tricked till it is too late. It was funny seeing them going "They're after Hedgehog!!!", knowing the Amateras crew had changed all the target designations around ( Hedgehog = DragonFly now, idiots. The reason why the live telecast shows only the bridge and is instructed to avoid showing the screens and panels )

Originally Posted by shouki

Spoiler for Ze Battle in Epizode 11:

I really liked this ep. Much better than the previous two. It was also funny to see Dita get back at Peter a bit. I really liked the idea of using the warp drive in a special way to increase manoeverability. Very cool. Not clear just how the warp drive works, but could see some gravitational lensing on the starfield in previous cases where we had warp in/outs...

I agree - it seems likely that the only ship in service which could manage this is the Amateras and then only thanks to the AI.

Interestingly, it seems that the area of space they bent was not completely around the ship, but most of it - enough for the manovering jets to be outside, I think.

Maybe she got the idea from the risky warp in the previous battle, where they again needed the AI to make it possible (being near planets and large gravity wells which makes it harder to do it reliably).

Actually, it's not that they changed what their tagets referred to, but that they were SMS'ing each other their orders (and basically ignoring the spoken ones). When the nav guy repeats his order, you see a scroll text of the real orders going past his screen.

That said, I agree that the Kingdom's commanders suck, in general. Maybe they relied too much on numbers or surprise in the past? Earlier in the ep they even discussed that you gotta watch out for Shinon, and they still walked straight into her simple trap.

Originally Posted by dreamless

Spoiler for ep11:

to be fair to the Kingdom commanders, the only one who's shown to really suck is the Dragonfly's captain, the others could not do much anyway. It's not as much a trap as just some super power-up, it's like suddenly make a battleship as maneuverable as F-22. Their strategy is not wrong, ganging up on Amaterasu so when it's attacking one, the others fire on it from all sides, but when Amaterasu's maneuverability suddenly increases more than ten thousand times, it's already too late for them to do anything...

Hmm... about the fansubs... do they still use Escort Ship or do they use Guard Ship now, like shown in the OP?

[NoSanninWa]

First, regarding episode 10.... this was more personal tragedy than plot in this episode

Spoiler for episode 10:

First of all... I'm shocked that more people didn't care more about oyason's death in this episode! I mean, this has been coming for sooo long, then finally they get together and BAM! He dies in the next episode. Talk about the kiss of death. They got hardly any time together to be happy. I'd have liked for them to be together for at least a whole episode before he dies pathetically, gunned down like an uppity dog! Would that have been too much to ask for?

With that off my chest, I thought that the attack was interesting. The Kingdom attacked them just so that their resupply company could be hurt, thus voiding the contract. Their enemy can be rather clever sometimes.

Then there was episode 11 where Starship Operators seriously failed my expectations. This is the real reason I wanted to post here. In the course of this series I have been overjoyed that SO has continuously managed to avoid overusing one of the worst of SciFi cliches. That cliche? When up against an insolvable problem, they simply create a technical solution. From Star Trek to Farscape it is a time honored cliche that they can simply build any plot device necessary. I hate this. In SO, Shinon has consistently created practical strategic solutions to all of their problems. She has always had to deal with the limits of technology. I have really admired the writers of this show for not taking any shortcuts.

Finally I have been failed!

In order to win this battle they simply whipped up a brand new technical advance that the ship never had before. I don't care if this was only possible because of their incredible computer genius. It was cheating. The writers cheated because they wrote themselves into a corner. I'm shocked that only dreamless felt that this was a bit cheap, but even dreamless was only surprised that nobody else had this ability. And that argument went away once it was pointed out that the Amaterasu really did have superior computing power to everyone else. I suppose that he simply expected this sort of thing to happen in SciFi shows. He was sucked in by the cliche. Am I the only one who feels that this show betrayed itself here?

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

First, regarding episode 10.... this was more personal tragedy than plot in this episode

Spoiler for episode 10:

First of all... I'm shocked that more people didn't care more about oyason's death in this episode! I mean, this has been coming for sooo long, then finally they get together and BAM! He dies in the next episode. Talk about the kiss of death. They got hardly any time together to be happy. I'd have liked for them to be together for at least a whole episode before he dies pathetically, gunned down like an uppity dog! Would that have been too much to ask for?

Spoiler:

And Shinon seems completely over it by the next episode. The guy was also rather suicidal. The whole thing didn't move me much - seeing them get together then seeing the trailer for the next ep, I was pretty sure he was toast. Probably my second least favouite episode.

Spoiler:

With that off my chest, I thought that the attack was interesting. The Kingdom attacked them just so that their resupply company could be hurt, thus voiding the contract. Their enemy can be rather clever sometimes.

Yes, worked rather better than the "call from home" strategy.

Then there was episode 11 where Starship Operators seriously failed my expectations. This is the real reason I wanted to post here. In the course of this series I have been overjoyed that SO has continuously managed to avoid overusing one of the worst of SciFi cliches. That cliche? When up against an insolvable problem, they simply create a technical solution. From Star Trek to Farscape it is a time honored cliche that they can simply build any plot device necessary. I hate this. In SO, Shinon has consistently created practical strategic solutions to all of their problems. She has always had to deal with the limits of technology. I have really admired the writers of this show for not taking any shortcuts.

Finally I have been failed!

When I first watched this ep, I was actually laughing like crazy when watching the battle, because it was so short and sweet. Often I get really annoyed by similar things, but I didn't mind. (And when you consider how silly the basic "get sponsored by Starship Channel" idea is at first blush...) In a way it was an extension of her solution from the last major battle - just change the "parameters", in this case, making it practical to turn quickly, showing just how limiting inertia etc is in these battles. Shinon effectively created g-dampening, something that would actually be really useful in general and not some kind of once-off. Though the side-effects did more harm to the ship than all the enemy attacks to date - she really was pushing things to breaking point.

In order to win this battle they simply whipped up a brand new technical advance that the ship never had before. I don't care if this was only possible because of their incredible computer genius. It was cheating. The writers cheated because they wrote themselves into a corner. I'm shocked that only dreamless felt that this was a bit cheap, but even dreamless was only surprised that nobody else had this ability. And that argument went away once it was pointed out that the Amaterasu really did have superior computing power to everyone else. I suppose that he simply expected this sort of thing to happen in SciFi shows. He was sucked in by the cliche. Am I the only one who feels that this show betrayed itself here?

I wonder what happened in the novels. (Is the novel series even finished?)

The only thing that really bugged me about ep 11 was that the enemy captains were SO easily fooled.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

First, regarding episode 10.... this was more personal tragedy than plot in this episode

Spoiler for episode 10:

First of all... I'm shocked that more people didn't care more about oyason's death in this episode! I mean, this has been coming for sooo long, then finally they get together and BAM! He dies in the next episode. Talk about the kiss of death. They got hardly any time together to be happy. I'd have liked for them to be together for at least a whole episode before he dies pathetically, gunned down like an uppity dog! Would that have been too much to ask for?

With that off my chest, I thought that the attack was interesting. The Kingdom attacked them just so that their resupply company could be hurt, thus voiding the contract. Their enemy can be rather clever sometimes.

Then there was episode 11 where Starship Operators seriously failed my expectations. This is the real reason I wanted to post here. In the course of this series I have been overjoyed that SO has continuously managed to avoid overusing one of the worst of SciFi cliches. That cliche? When up against an insolvable problem, they simply create a technical solution. From Star Trek to Farscape it is a time honored cliche that they can simply build any plot device necessary. I hate this. In SO, Shinon has consistently created practical strategic solutions to all of their problems. She has always had to deal with the limits of technology. I have really admired the writers of this show for not taking any shortcuts.

Finally I have been failed!

In order to win this battle they simply whipped up a brand new technical advance that the ship never had before. I don't care if this was only possible because of their incredible computer genius. It was cheating. The writers cheated because they wrote themselves into a corner. I'm shocked that only dreamless felt that this was a bit cheap, but even dreamless was only surprised that nobody else had this ability. And that argument went away once it was pointed out that the Amaterasu really did have superior computing power to everyone else. I suppose that he simply expected this sort of thing to happen in SciFi shows. He was sucked in by the cliche. Am I the only one who feels that this show betrayed itself here?

I like to point out that they have been making a point of pointing out how advance the AI for the ship since the series started. So it is like they pull that little trick out a hat. This was something plan form the start so it is not that suprising if you follow the rule for writting about the gun.

[Mentar]

I'll forgive them for that, NSW ... as you pointed out, the "solved by technical marvel" catch is a staple for scifi shows, so I wouldn't slam the show too hard for it. There are definitely more serious plotholes than this one. And besides, the battle was pretty cool IMHO.

Besides, the entire point of SSO isn't the battles, it's the political angle, and the slightly perverse symbiosis with the media. I'll only say this much: In this aspect, the final two eps are gonna be just plain awesome - it's gonna be one of the best endings to a scifi show that I've ever seen.

[Xellos-_^]

i am waiting for the sub ending myself. I watch the raws a while and it confuse the hell out of me Seems like there was a lot of double and triple and quad cross going on the political side of things.

[Ledgem]

I can see where you're coming from NSW, but I didn't think it was that bad.

Spoiler for Episode 11 happenings:

The Amaterasu took advantage of the confusion generated by their false broadcast to take down one ship - and if you want to, you could count the second. Out of five ships total, only four were within the engagement ring at the time, so that's already doing pretty well. It also didn't feel so cheap - after all, the ship suffered pretty badly for those stunts. If it had come out unscathed completely, beyond the initial "cool, Shinon kicks butt" factor, I'd probably feel the same way you did.

I was just disappointed way back on episode... six or seven?

Spoiler for Discussion of the Shen Long:

When the Shen Long and Amaterasu were to engage the four Kingdom vessels. We never saw what Shinon's plan was, but everyone was all shocked by it. And then the Shen Long had to go ahead and not follow the plan, thereby screwing everything up. Thanks a lot for spoiling a brilliant playing out of strategy! Though I was a bit saddened at the time, in hindsight, I'm glad that ship was destroyed. At least they didn't have the chance to botch any more plans!

edited to include spoiler tags, as per NSW's comment

[NoSanninWa]

I'm thinking that we really ought to take spoiler tags seriously in this thread since it just came out on DVD last week, and new watchers might not want to get spoiled. From now on, everyone should try to use spoiler tags unless the episode was released on DVD.

DVD 1: 12/26/2005 episodes 1-3
DVD 2: 03/07/2006 episodes 4-6
DVD 3: 05/02/2006 episodes 7-?

Spoiler for episode 11:

Perhaps you're right about this being an integral part of the show. After all, it would be impossible for the Amaterasu to win against an entire empire by itself, without some serious cheating. And they did make the point about our advanced AI and amazing computer programmer a long time ago. It was doubtlessly intended from the beginning.

Anyway, another amazing feature of this show is that it uses real-life physics in its space battles. It is still the only show I've ever seen do that. Actually, seeing how much of an effect it has to use gravitic compensation as inertial damping drives home how powerful these effects really are.

and the show really is about the relationship with the media. Something that was quite prominent in this episode despite my complaint.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

DVD 1: 12/26/2005 episodes 1-3
DVD 2: 03/07/2006 episodes 4-6
DVD 3: 05/02/2006 episodes 7-13

That can't be right - DVD 3 will hold five episodes? I know that DVD technology is capable of it, but companies generally prefer to put three episodes on. It's just enough to make us buy a DVD or two more, while still letting us feel like we're getting more than we did when we bought episodes on VHS. (My preferred number is four episodes per disc.) That aside, I thought this series was only 12 episodes...

Spoiler for episode 11:

Perhaps you're right about this being an integral part of the show. After all, it would be impossible for the Amaterasu to win against an entire empire by itself, without some serious cheating. And they did make the point about our advanced AI and amazing computer programmer a long time ago. It was doubtlessly intended from the beginning.

Well theoretically, they could just make the Amaterasu invincible. "Look at how great and advanced our armor is! The enemy's beam cannons have no effect!" Or they could make it even worse - "Look at how great and advanced our armor is! Our armor type absorbs the enemy's attack type times two, and we're now back up to 9999 HP!" I much prefer what they've done here, it's a little more grounded.

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That can't be right - DVD 3 will hold five episodes? I know that DVD technology is capable of it, but companies generally prefer to put three episodes on. It's just enough to make us buy a DVD or two more, while still letting us feel like we're getting more than we did when we bought episodes on VHS. (My preferred number is four episodes per disc.) That aside, I thought this series was only 12 episodes...

The series is 13 episodes.

Spoiler for 13 episode titles:

01. Countdown
「カウント・ダウン」
02. Trafalgar Crisis
「トラファルガー・クライシス」
03. Call From Home
「コール・フロム・ホーム」
04. Final Answer
ファイナル・アンサー
05. Great Escape (part 1 of 2)
グレート・エスケープ(前編)
06. Great Escape (part 2 of 2)
グレート・エスケープ(後編)
07. Stardust Memory (part 1 of 2)
スターダスト・メモリー(前編)
08. Stardust Memory (part 2 of 2)
スターダスト・メモリー(後編)
09. Turning Point
ターニング・ポイント
10. Sudden Death
サドン・デス
11. Return Match
リターン・マッチ
12. War Cry
ウオー・クライ
13. Moment of Truth
モーメント・オブ・トゥルース

Though I think that I might be confused about the number of episodes on each DVD. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Well theoretically, they could just make the Amaterasu invincible. "Look at how great and advanced our armor is! The enemy's beam cannons have no effect!" Or they could make it even worse - "Look at how great and advanced our armor is! Our armor type absorbs the enemy's attack type times two, and we're now back up to 9999 HP!" I much prefer what they've done here, it's a little more grounded.

Indeed. That would have been going waaaay too far.

[Forever]

Well insanely late, but i finally watched finished the series! A very good end indeed, but i am sad to see

Spoiler:

the technical officer chose to die with the ship... Amateras finally won on overall. POltically overall. A miracle indeed!

[NoSanninWa]

I just watched the last two episodes also.

Spoiler for episodes 12 and 13:

I was very sad to see the destruction of the Amaterasu. Even though the people survived, the ship felt like one of the characters of this show. Not surprising since it did have more personality than some of them. Unfortunately there just wasn't any way to save the ship. We almost beat odds of 4-1, but even if we had been in perfect shape, the odds of 10-1 are just ridiculous.

I was rather upset in episode 12 to see that our last 3 shots weren't able to win the battle for us, but I guess sometimes luck won't fall the protagonist's way. It didn't make any difference in the end anyway. Ultimately we would have fallen to the political game in episode 13, even if we had won that fight.

I am confused about one thing though: How could they have won freedom for their planet? Even if the Earth Federation's lies were unmasked at the end of 13, we still have the Kingdom to deal with. All along they were hoping they could convince the Federation to help us fight the Kingdom, but it turned out that they wanted to own that planet, not save it. If the Federation goes home, nobody is left to fight the Kingdom.

Perhaps the Federation got entrenced in a war with the Kingdom and little planets like thiers were able to throw off the Kingdom's yoke in the conflict?

[Forever]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

I just watched the last two episodes also.

Spoiler for episodes 12 and 13:

I was very sad to see the destruction of the Amaterasu. Even though the people survived, the ship felt like one of the characters of this show. Not surprising since it did have more personality than some of them. Unfortunately there just wasn't any way to save the ship. We almost beat odds of 4-1, but even if we had been in perfect shape, the odds of 10-1 are just ridiculous.

I was rather upset in episode 12 to see that our last 3 shots weren't able to win the battle for us, but I guess sometimes luck won't fall the protagonist's way. It didn't make any difference in the end anyway. Ultimately we would have fallen to the political game in episode 13, even if we had won that fight.

I am confused about one thing though: How could they have won freedom for their planet? Even if the Earth Federation's lies were unmasked at the end of 13, we still have the Kingdom to deal with. All along they were hoping they could convince the Federation to help us fight the Kingdom, but it turned out that they wanted to own that planet, not save it. If the Federation goes home, nobody is left to fight the Kingdom.

Perhaps the Federation got entrenced in a war with the Kingdom and little planets like thiers were able to throw off the Kingdom's yoke in the conflict?

Spoiler for end of series:

The Earth federation just killed all the aspiring kingdom leaders. With no leader, in addition to the other heavy casulaties they suffered to amateras, the kingdom will fall in chaos. All the other planets will probably all ally against Earth federation seeing as the Earth federation intention is revealed already.

[Blaat]

I'm currently rewatching the show, I'm at episode 8 now.

Why is Kanzaki the captain? He's such a coward, maybe I've seen too much Star Trek?

[NoSanninWa]

I seem to remember that he was chosen because his clean cut looks will help to boost their TV ratings.

[Blaat]

Ahh gotcha, I thought the TV producers only selected those girls as operators not the captain and the leader of the battle and navigation bridge.

Anyway saw episode 10, it was good but too predictable.

[guest]

Spoiler for ending:

Actually, I was feeling a little letdown of the ending at first. But then I realize this is a battle of politics and technology. In the end, that tactics of politics is brilliant. It's OK with me. I would prefer a win with technology because I am a cough*tech nerd*cough, but heh, a change in the strategy is refreshing.

I have never ever seen a anime like this. I love it. Shinon is so smart and all those tactics and drama. WOW!

[oasis]

is there a sequel?

[Mentar]

Watch the anime first, I'd say. This should answer your question about a sequel.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by oasis

is there a sequel?

I think the novel is ongoing, someone correct me if i am wrong. As far as the animje if the sale is good enough there probably will be a sequel.