[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[kanketsu]

Now that you said it, I now wish Ryukishi actually distributed different versions of the booklet. Packaged inside bottles. :lol:

That brings up an idea ... anyone up to make forgeries of Our Confession?

(Somehow I can hear Hanyuu saying, "Oniii! Akumaaa!!!)

[LyricalAura]

Hopefully whoever uploaded that text intends to put up the rest and we're just waiting on them to type it. I've also posted a request in the C81 thread on /jp/ to see if anyone can rescan it, so we'll see what happens.

By the way, "17-year-old Angels" is up on the wiki too. Just from a quick skim, it appears to be about Ange and Virgilia setting up a BL manga circle for Comiket together and making the other characters suffer through their bizarre pairing fantasies. o_O

EDIT:
Besides what haguruma mentioned, there's also a new bit where Piece-Beatrice is threatening Krauss and Natsuhi at the beginning. She tells them that there are only two ways to avoid the explosion: 1) disable the timing device using a method only she knows, or 2) escape to the far side of the island through the underground tunnel in the gold room. The tunnel is sealed with a locked iron grid which Piece-Beatrice has the key to.

Also, Beatrice tells the 1st twilight victims: "Don't take this the wrong way. You haven't done anything wrong. If you want to blame someone, blame that man who threw away his promise for six long years."

[naever]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

By the way, "17-year-old Angels" is up on the wiki too. Just from a quick skim, it appears to be about Ange and Virgilia setting up a BL manga circle for Comiket together and making the other characters suffer through their bizarre pairing fantasies. o_O

Hmm... Well, at least that explains the Ange&Virgilia ending in OMK X/Cross.

We already knew about Virgilia's love of crack from that other TIP and Ange... Somehow, I'm not surprised. She's more and more like Battler by the second. Weird catchprases, slaughter of english, finger pointing (in the anime, at least), suicidal tendencies, and now, pervertedness. Onichan must be proud.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by naever

Onichan must be proud.

I'm sure he would be, if she weren't slashing him with his evil twin.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Also, Beatrice tells the 1st twilight victims: "Don't take this the wrong way. You haven't done anything wrong. If you want to blame someone, blame that man who threw away his promise for six long years."

Sure, why should I blame the 19 years old psyhco girl who's blackmailing me and who's planning mass murder? I'll blame the 12 years old kid who forgot a promise.

Beatrice here's got quite some convincing argument...

[Nanaya27]

So time to stop lurking and post my theory on Yasu's motive. I've been honing this on gamefaqs for a bit, so if anyone browses the Umineko topics over there they probably have seen this stuff before. Spoiler'd for length, and also minor spoilers for Our Confessions.

Spoiler for R-prime motive:

First, let's deal with Rokkenjima Prime. I'll use the fake murder interpretation here, since I like that best and think it has the most support. Yasu hosted a fake murder game targeted at Battler. The purpose was to revive the love between them and in doing so revive Beatrice, the persona tied to that love. The (fake) murder ceremony was exactly what we've been told from EP1, a ritual to revive Beatrice. Yasu constructed a murder mystery game resembling the stories she had written. Her hope was that Battler could "solve" her heart by solving the mystery. It's basically a really roundabout confession from someone who's terrible at honestly expressing their feelings to others.

As you can imagine, there are a number of ways this could turn sour. My personal favorite is that the survivors who weren't in on the farce began to kill each other in self defense or as revenge for the fallen. My pick for #1 most likely to spark the whole thing off is George. He has particular motive to hate the culprit if Yasu has used Shannon as a sacrifice in the early stages of the game, he can handle himself in a fight because of his martial arts, and him sparking the whole thing would suitably explain why Eva kept the truth hidden. We can have Battler/Rudolf/Kyrie also kill to explain all the hints that point towards protecting Ange from the truth. But however the real murders started or progressed, the end result was a terrible tragedy that the survivors wanted to cover up at all costs. This is when Eva/Yasu/Battler detonated the bomb and shut the lid on the cat box.

This explains why Yasu would feel responsible for everyone's deaths and kill herself despite having not actually murdered anyone. Well, assuming that Battler and Beato's escape from the island is real or at least reflects reality.

That really explains the motive for the fake murders, and I'm sure most of it has already been proposed before in this thread. But there are a few interesting tidbits I'd like to share that are vaguely related. In EP8 Battler and Beato claimed that the reason for Ange's sad future was their game. This can be interpreted to mean that in R-prime, the fake murder mystery game that Beato constructed and played with Battler was the cause of the tragedy. It can also mean that by sending the message bottles out to sea, Yasu colored the public's perception of the Rokkenjima Incident in a way that caused much pain for Ange. The message bottles are what turned everyone's thinking towards "Beatrice the Golden Witch", and depending on your view of the meta-world they may be what actually allows Beato's game to exist, metaphysically speaking.

Another hint that I saw brought up here recently, and that I figured out while honing my theory, is that the envelopes with the key cards were addressed to the people on the island. Rather than a convoluted plot to cover her tracks, this more probably points to Yasu not actually planing on detonating the bomb or killing everyone, because the letters were meant for those they were addressed to. Although of course the validity of such scenes as "real" is questionable, I still think we can use them to reason. If we dismiss something just because it could be fiction written by Tohya & Ikuko, it's the same as giving up reasoning.

Another thing that doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's motive, but goes back to discussing the specifics of R-prime. Rather than an accident type of explanation where everyone is innocent, I'd rather it be a tragedy where everyone is guilty. If everyone is guilty, it's the same as no one being guilty. But it's still different from everyone being innocent. This would suitably explain why everyone in the Golden Land harbors no blame for each other. They all feel that they had a hand in the tragedy (directly or indirectly) and thus have no right to blame the others.

Spoiler for stories/game board motive:

Now for the stories themselves, which are pretty much synonymous with the game board. They were written as murder mysteries, with Yasu's own unique touch of fantasy, so that she could share (or fantasize about sharing) them with Battler. Because she wanted him to understand her heart by solving the mystery, she had to carefully craft a motive that was true to her heart.

While a certain amount of meta-motive is to be expected, I believe it's simply out of character for the real Yasu to have piece-Yasu kill everyone and blow up the island in her stories just because the real Yasu needs a murder mystery to show Battler. The reason I believe this is because Battler himself told Yasu that the heart is important in mysteries, and that he dislikes mysteries that ignore the motive. Remember, Yasu's goal is to create a mystery that will make Battler understand her heart when he solves it.

Now the actual motive for piece-Yasu is quite simple, and has a boatload of support and hints throughout the series. Her primary motive is to "open the door to the Golden Land". This is hammered in during EP1-4. While Meta-Beatrice's goal is to play the game with battler and hopefully have Battler "solve" her heart, piece-Beatrice's goal is to open the door to the Golden Land. But what exactly does that mean, and why does she want it?

As for what it means, well the Golden Land is a utopia where everyone can be happy, and every wish and dream can be granted, even conflicting ones. Sounds familiar, right? Yes, the Golden Land is the cat box, or more accurately is a place allowed to exist only inside the cat box. And the bomb is the device that "opens the door to the Golden Land", as was made obvious by Will and Claire in EP7.

As for why piece-Yasu wants it, that should be fairly obvious. "A world were all conflicting dreams can exist at once". In EP1-4, we see that the Golden Land is something that both Shannon and Kanon want (or at least wanted). Really if you have any doubts as to the cat box being a plausible motive, I suggest you read the scene you get for solving Shannon's and Kanon's riddles in EP8. It's far more convincing than I could ever be, and also shows that they had doubts about it as well, which will play into my theories later. Another place you can see the Golden Land motive pretty clearly is the exchange between piece-Beatrice and Shannon at the end of Our Confessions (thanks to LyricalAura).

Now that's all well for the bomb, but if all Yasu wants is to create the cat box, then the murders aren't necessary, she could just set off the bomb. Well, you might argue meta-motives here, that because Yasu was writing a murder mystery, there naturally had to be murder and mystery. But before resorting to that, I believe that piece-Yasu's motive for the murder ceremony has several angles. Firstly, to play one final game with Battler. If he remembers his sin, that will give piece-Yasu some closure, and although Beatrice's goal was not revenge, it's not as though she didn't enjoy putting the squeeze on him. Another angle which in a way is just as important, is to introduce risk. Because deep down, piece-Yasu wanted to be stopped. Part of her realizes that what she really wants is true happiness that she can experience herself, not the illusion of happiness granted by the cat box. This is why she made the rule that she would stop if the epitaph was solved. The third angle would be to establish the existence of Beatrice. This is because first, Yasu feels like the Beatrice persona is the closest to her true self, so obviously establishing her as an actual person is important. Second, Yasu wants a murder mystery with her own unique touch, a battle between fantasy and mystery. This is a motive in the context of the stories as much as it is a meta-motive, because she's modeled the murder mystery game with Battler after the type of games she used to play in her head while reading mystery novels. So while the real Yasu obviously wants to write a mystery like that, piece-Yasu also wants to play that kind of game with Battler.

Now, we've seen enough of Yasu's life to say it was pretty crappy. Most people can probably see her committing suicide. But taking everyone else with her, even Maria and Kumasawa and George and Jessica? Well, we know from Ryukishi's post-EP8 interview that it's possible, even probable, that Yasu was in a "lover's suicide" mindset. I believe he and KEIYA explained suitably how and why Shannon could be able to kill George. It's easy to extend from there into Jessica. Maria was Yasu's closest friend, and from Yasu's point of view she was a pitiable existence. Given the fact that Maria in EP1-4 is always touting the fact that Beatrice promised to take her to the Golden Land, I can easily envision Yasu asking Maria, explaining in "magic" terms, and Maria, who honestly believes in Beatrice's magic, not doubting at all and eagerly agreeing. And we've seen how Beatrice's relationship with Maria was in EP4, she was selfishly clinging to Maria because she was the only one she could connect with. So Yasu convincing herself that Maria would be happier in the Golden Land, just like herself, is quite believable to me.

From there, you can see how it would snowball. Natsuhi rejected Yasu and caused the wound that is presumably what makes her body incapable of love. Rudolf and Kyrie are the ones who drove Battler away. Eva hates Shannon, and is always trying to drive her and George apart. Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa's affection was all for the purpose of presenting her like a gift to Kinzo at the right time, and she was just some object to be used for Kinzo's redemption which he didn't deserve. Gohda is an ass, always pushing things on Shannon or Kanon. Krauss is a bungling idiot who put his entire family's financial well-being in danger. Hideyoshi is Eva's wife, he must be just like the rest of them, etc.

Now I'm not saying Yasu was specifically after all these people because she hated them. In fact that would seem to have been flatly denied just now by this:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Also, Beatrice tells the 1st twilight victims: "Don't take this the wrong way. You haven't done anything wrong. If you want to blame someone, blame that man who threw away his promise for six long years."

I'm saying that Yasu could begin to combine her disgust (or complete apathy at best) for most of the people on the island and her thoughts of lover's suicide and the cat box in dangerous ways. Bring in fantasies about showing Battler a real murder mystery, and you can start to see the crime in the works.

Now you may have noticed that I stopped saying "piece-Yasu" while describing the feelings Yasu had that lead to the crime, and that's because I believe the real Yasu had these feelings as well (like I said, she needed a motive true to her heart). The difference is whether she really acted on them or not. But while those feelings Yasu had may or may not have been strong enough to commit the crime in the real world, by the simple fact that piece-Yasu is a character in a murder mystery those feelings are predisposed to be motives for a crime. If you get what I mean. If piece-Yasu's feelings weren't strong enough for a crime, then there wouldn't be a story and piece-Yasu wouldn't exist.

It's even possible that the real Yasu's feelings might have built up to level where she could actually commit a crime, but by venting these feelings into her character she was able to keep them in check.

Lastly, it's quite possible to take this motive for the stories and apply it to R-prime if you want. This theory is something I first stumbled across while trying to find a motive for real murders and the bomb on R-prime.

Well this is my interpretation. I know it probably seems silly to put so much thought into the motive for the stories when you can hand-wave everything with meta-motives, but I feel it's an important part of the mystery nonetheless, and I wanted to find a decent motive for the real murder interpretation of R-prime. And part of this is probably just thinking for the sake of thinking.

Despite typing so much, I still feel like I haven't quite explained all the thoughts I have well enough, and there are still some things I'm wondering about. But there's really nothing to be gained form holding it back, so I'll post it now.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Nanaya27

Despite typing so much, I still feel like I haven't quite explained all the thoughts I have well enough, and there are still some things I'm wondering about. But there's really nothing to be gained form holding it back, so I'll post it now.

Well, it's actually something I agree with quite a bit.
If you consider the idea that EP1 and 2 as well as Our Confession were written by Yasu, quite a bit can be deduced regarding her idea of the characters, especially if you apply the logic told in Our Confession to the actions of characters in those Episodes.
Dlanor basically flat out tells us that what created the tragedy was that:

Spoiler for Our Confession:

"Beatrice" was unable to see what her message was supposed to tell, that in everybodies hearts there is love. She reduced her image of those people to stereotypes and, while maybe not hating them, was underestimating their potential for good.

Just look at how she portrays Krauss and Natsuhi...
She is basically making him laugh like an evil villain on the inside at the thought of the explosion. She assumes that it doesn't matter to him what her actual goal is, because as long as the island blows up, either through her bank account, or in case it doesn't exist through the life insurance on Kinzô, he will get an ass-load of money. And he is basically lying straight into Natsuhi's face about how he is doing it for her and Jessica.
And Natsuhi is basically only acting out of pride, behaving like a drooling Kinzô-fangirl. There is never any mention of her being motivated by love for her daughter...it's just family-pride.

This is not how they were, this is how the stories portray them and effectivly this is how Yasu saw those people. I can actually see how she made Eva into a conniving, spiteful bitch who controls her sons every move, Hideyoshi into a bumbling idiot, Kyrie into a vengeful wife-killer, Rudolph into a brainless adulterer and Rosa into a child-beating maniac. No wonder their depiction would be so far apart between the Battler memories in Tôya and how Yasu depicted them...they basically had two very different ideas of them.

To Yasu they were probably pretty sinful and maybe downright bad people.

[Jaden]

"Hideyoshi is Eva's wife" Haha. But honestly, good post Nanaya.

The "everyone is guilty" approach is unorthodox to the point of being unacceptable in a mystery, but in Umineko it makes sense. It explains how everyone in the Golden Land has such equal feelings, none of them blaming each other, everyone feeling responsible and sorry for Ange. The story has taken special care to introduce every character's shortcomings that could lead them to doom, and the situation on the island is so volatile that someone could actually be getting shot. Then it snowballs from there and in the end things are so messy that Yasu looks like a saviour with her bomb switch.

There are other options that I've thought about and mostly dismissed, like... accident explosion (lame), a single culprit (not enough evidence), the story authors trying to cover up for somebody (convoluted).

It's still difficult to confirm the theory, because we know so little of the key parts of R-Prime.

1. Who knows about bomb switch and who flips it? (plenty of evidence that Yasu controls this)
2. Who solves the epitaph, and do they stay quiet about it? (infinite variations)
3. Why do things get out of hand? (plenty of evidence there's a murder mystery game, trying to hide Kinzo's death, 10 tons of gold needing to be shared)
4. Who is the first one to actually commit a murder and how? (infinite variations)
5. How is it that Battler and Eva end up escaping in seperate ways, and nobody else? (Battler gets escorted out by Yasu it seems, other than that infinite variations)
6. Why are Battler and Eva hiding information? (to avoid prosecution and they don't want Ange to think her family are like something out of Darwin Awards.)

[Oblivion]

Was there any particular reason for Ikuko writing stories about Rokkenjima other than the fact that she was an author? I don't really see anything she would have to gain from writing those stories. She says that she's reached the truth, but she doesn't really want to reveal it. She writes the stories giving out some bits of it but not the whole thing.

In the end, she even helps bring down the interest in the Rokkenjima explosion. If she was going to do that anyways, what was the reason for writing out the forgeries?

[kanketsu]

I've been scratching my head for the past few days trying to find out what "Golden Land" actually means. Reading nanaya's view; that helps clear up my confusion.

Not to try to discount the proposed concept, just want to check if I get this right ...

Spoiler for Golden Land:

can it be said then that "I want to go to wonderland" is something like to "I want to commit suicide" in this case? "Don't worry, you'll be happier in Golden Land," means "Don't worry, you'll be happier in afterlife after you died." Golden Land suddenly feels like a sinister thing
But, yeah, I think this view is consistent with the whole story's tone.

[AuraTwilight]

Was there any particular reason for Ikuko writing stories about Rokkenjima other than the fact that she was an author? I don't really see anything she would have to gain from writing those stories. She says that she's reached the truth, but she doesn't really want to reveal it. She writes the stories giving out some bits of it but not the whole thing.

In the end, she even helps bring down the interest in the Rokkenjima explosion. If she was going to do that anyways, what was the reason for writing out the forgeries?

Keep in mind she doesn't write about Rokkenjima until she finds Battler/Toya. Before that, she wrote other mystery stories.

[LyricalAura]

Okay, since people are assuming that Our Confession was written by or applies to Yasu, I'd better point a couple of things out.

• It contains references to the meta-world arguments and red truth.
• It contains references, on both the board and meta levels, to characters that were first introduced in Tohya and Ikuko's forgeries.
• That bit about Beato's heart being filled with rage against those who have no love, and not being able to see that they did have love, and all of the "1 in a 1000 readers" stuff, all sound very much like EP6 Ikuko's attitude toward her readers.

I'm not saying you can't work around it, but it's pretty suggestive to me.

[Akuryou]

So, basically, what you're implying is that the "meta world" is Tohya struggling with his "Battler memories" discussing with Ikuko (who is represented by Meta-Beatrice) while writing their books?

Just making sure I'm following the same logic line as you.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Okay, since people are assuming that Our Confession was written by or applies to Yasu, I'd better point a couple of things out.

• It contains references to the meta-world arguments and red truth.
• It contains references, on both the board and meta levels, to characters that were first introduced in Tohya and Ikuko's forgeries.
• That bit about Beato's heart being filled with rage against those who have no love, and not being able to see that they did have love, and all of the "1 in a 1000 readers" stuff, all sound very much like EP6 Ikuko's attitude toward her readers.

I'm not saying you can't work around it, but it's pretty suggestive to me.

I'd point out that the person who wrote Our Confession was on speaking terms with Dlanor, specifically.

[Nanaya27]

Originally Posted by kanketsu

I've been scratching my head for the past few days trying to find out what "Golden Land" actually means. Reading nanaya's view; that helps clear up my confusion.

Not to try to discount the proposed concept, just want to check if I get this right ...

Spoiler for Golden Land:

can it be said then that "I want to go to wonderland" is something like to "I want to commit suicide" in this case? "Don't worry, you'll be happier in Golden Land," means "Don't worry, you'll be happier in afterlife after you died." Golden Land suddenly feels like a sinister thing
But, yeah, I think this view is consistent with the whole story's tone.

Essentially, yes. I'd call that the "trick" explanation. Though it's important to note that it's not just suicide and going to heaven. The cat box matters because it allows conflicting dreams to coexist. Suicide and the afterlife wouldn't appeal to Yasu nearly as much without that.

Originally Posted by Oblivion

In the end, she even helps bring down the interest in the Rokkenjima explosion. If she was going to do that anyways, what was the reason for writing out the forgeries?

My views on Ikuko's actions are like this: at first, she's just like any other forger, in it for the fun. But because she lives with Tohya, she's able to gain a much greater understanding and also able to to come into direct contact with someone involved and see how he feels about it. It's my opinion that Tohya stopped Ikuko from revealing Eva's diary, whether it was by him asking her directly, or simply that living with him and growing close over 12 years changed something in her and she had a last-minute change of heart. You know, the whole deal about how Featherine in her old age realized that not knowing is more precious than knowing.

As for the whole deal with Ikuko & Tohya and the metafiction angle, I have a bunch of thoughts on that as well, but they're hardly organized into a single coherent theory.

Spoiler for length and shotgun logic:

In the case of Our Confessions specifically, given the info that LyricalAura gave us a 3 posts up it seems quite obvious to me that it's written by Ikuko & Tohya, at least in the interpretations where the meta-world isn't real. However, there's nothing really wrong with the idea that the meta-world really exists on some level. Consider Higurashi with the Sea of Fragments, Hanyuu, and so on. In this interpretation, it really could be the unfinished work of meta-Beato, who is Yasu ascended to witch-hood through the cat box (or something). I sometimes think that the meta-world being real is the best interpretation, though maybe it's because I'm attached to certain meta characters.

Though I think that the meta-world as fiction has great support, it's very difficult to work out what is and isn't real. In fact the only coherent theory I've been able to make is that everything we read actually comes from Ikuko & Tohya (& Ange). Rather than type up an entirely new post, I'll just re-post some of the stuff I posted about it elsewhere (edited to sound better):

Spoiler for copypasta:

Something I've thought of is that the EP1 and EP2 we read might not be by Yasu directly. If you follow the idea that the meta-world is a story-telling device, then it would logically follow that Yasu was the original creator of it, since it is present in EP1-2. But Bern is in EP1-2, and as we've seen Ikuko has a cat named Bern. So, again following the idea that the meta-world is fictional from the "real" world's perspective, it should be obvious that Ikuko created Bern's character, which means that the EP1 and EP2 we read is actually embellished by Ikuko & Tohya. This could also explain anything in EP1-2 that might seem to require an after-the-fact veiwpoint. And if the entirety of EP1-8 is authored by Ikuko & Tohya, then the final line in the story about dedicating it to Beatrice carries more weight.

Ryukishi did a really good job of blending illusion and reality together, to the point I think rather than two boxes labeled "fiction" and "reality" we need a centrifuge to break down the scenes into their base components and construct "reality" from the heavy core after all the fiction is sifted to the outer layer. Basically, we can get a picture of the "real" world by putting together all the glimpses of it they give throughout the story, without worrying about whether this or that scene is ruled out because Ange talks to Bern, or Ikuko uses the red, and so on.

Let's say that the very end of the EP8 ???? is Tohya becoming Battler again, his memories and identity realigning. Then after all that, he and Ikuko and Ange wright everything we read, and Battler dedicates it to his beloved witch. Everything we read is authored by them, and while we never see the "real" world directly, it is mixed in. In some places concentrated enough that the scenes are practically interchangeable with reality, in other places embellished but still recognizable, and in still more places completely hidden inside the meta-world so that it's unrecognizable as anything but a metaphor for reality.

BTW, there are reasons I went with the "Battler comes back" interpretation rather than the "Battler moves on" one. Firstly, the last words of the story are "dedicated to my beloved witch". It makes me think Battler himself did the dedicating, not Tohya. Also, Battler coming back would be a miracle, and sort of a final answer to the final red truth of him being dead. And Ange would have been responsible for "resurrecting" him. So overall I feel it does fit rather well with certain themes of Umineko. And of course you'd think that bringing him to a place from his memories would be more likely to restore his identity rather than put the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Though I do agree that the actual depiction of the scene felt more like "I'm finally at rest" and him being reunited with everyone as a kind of departure to the Golden Land, where they all are, which does suggest Battler's "death". Overall, I think both interpretations are equally credible.

Basically what led me to the "everything is fiction" idea was that no matter how you look at it, the EP8 ???? which most people peg as one of the few scenes that can be safely said to be real, has a few glaring nods towards the meta. Namely Ikuko's agelessness, and Ange reconstructing the "Halloween Party" that has a special meaning between her and Battler, but only if you accept the meta-world as real.

As for the purpose they had for writing the whole thing, or what they meant by certain parts, I haven't really thought about it too much. You can obviously view Battler's struggle in the meta-world as Tohya trying to regain his memories, and when he finally finds the truth in Ep5 that would symbolize Tohya completely remembering.

Another thought I have is that assuming the meta-world is neither real nor invented by Ikuko and Tohya, but a simply metaphor (or fantasy scene, if you will) for Tohya's struggle over his memories, he only remembered everything at EP5. EP3 and EP4 couldn't have been written by someone who didn't know the truth, and we know that Tohya was the one who did all the plotting, Ikuko just wrote. So to me this interpretation seems weaker than both the fiction interpretation I've explained above and the "real meta-world" interpretation. Though I do like this interpretation, especially because of the whole Will = Tohya angle. Maybe I'm just missing something? Perhaps Ikuko really was able to solve everything from the original two message bottles and observing Tohya, but Tohya himself wasn't able to, so that without his knowledge she gained some weird understanding that allowed her to write Tohya's plots with the truth in mind. But once he found the truth, she stepped back and used him to check her answers? This kind of fits with EP6-7. Well, this line of thought is more decoding the meta-world, it can be used whether you think the meta-world was invented by Ikuko & Tohya or is directly from Ryukishi, the only requirement is that it needs to be considered a fantasy scene for the real world, rather than real itself.

Anyways, I think said line of thought makes sense atm, but I'm kind of tired so I'll have to wait til later to continue further down it.

[Azule]

After reading our confessions, something jumped out at me.

Spoiler:

Even though our confessions pretty much confirms the Sh/Kanon culprit side of things, there wasn't actually a second twilight. Sure, George and Shannon were "driven apart", but her body appears later for the 4th twilight. In other words, correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't this stand out as being the only "game" where two people havn't died at the second twilight?"Makes me wonder if it's possible to apply two culprit theories, one "with love", and one "without love", since it's surely a sign of love that two lovers didn't die.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Azule

After reading our confessions, something jumped out at me.

Spoiler:

Even though our confessions pretty much confirms the Sh/Kanon culprit side of things, there wasn't actually a second twilight. Sure, George and Shannon were "driven apart", but her body appears later for the 4th twilight. In other words, correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't this stand out as being the only "game" where two people havn't died at the second twilight?"Makes me wonder if it's possible to apply two culprit theories, one "with love", and one "without love", since it's surely a sign of love that two lovers didn't die.

Well, I don't find anything strange in it...In the second twilight of EP2, Kanon's body is never found as far as I remembered, and I don't think Yasu die in this...

[Drifloon]

It's true that Kanon's body was found, but Beatrice said he was dead in red to make it look like Jessica and Kanon were the victims of the second twilight.

It's actually a very interesting point that this game seems to use the same person for two twilights. Strange.

[RedKey]

I think we probably shouldn't read too much into it. After all, correct me if I'm wrong, Eva and Hideyoshi in EP1 were both the 2nd and 4th Twilight, they had the stakes buried in their heads.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Nanaya27

~~~

I like your analysis (although I don't necessarily agree with all of it). What do you think of Ikuko=Yasu?

----------------

About the Our Confessions 2nd Twilight. haguruma covered it already.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Spoiler for Our Confession:

She then talks about how after that the women and children go to the 2nd floor of the guesthouse and Krauss and the male servants stay on downstairs. So George and Shannon are together so she'll make them the 2nd twilight. But this time she will interpret it as kidnapping Shannon and thus "tearing them apart".
It then continues with 紗音は1階の使用人室へ寄った後.

So I really do wonder if what I read is just made up...but it's really strange how the scans are for example missing things like the cover and how those parts fit too well into the script to be made up.

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Originally Posted by RedKey

I think we probably shouldn't read too much into it. After all, correct me if I'm wrong, Eva and Hideyoshi in EP1 were both the 2nd and 4th Twilight, they had the stakes buried in their heads.

EP1 4th Twilight was Kinzo. Until Our Confessions, the 2nd Twilight was interpreted in such a way that there were no restrictions on how to kill.