Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Being outclassed by someone who outclasses everyone isn't really a major shortcoming. I'm not sure what mistake you mean with Caster but I'll take your word for it that she did, and she never actually failed against Berserker. In fact she succeeded. Twice.

Everything else aside, saying she succeeded twice against Berserker is like saying someone succeeded twice on a test...but was only able to answer two out of twelve questions.

That's not success. That's a failing grade.

Just saying.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm getting a little tired of having to repeat myself though.

And I'm sure everyone else is getting tired of you repeating yourself when you've been told multiple times that the true reasoning for why others are arguing against you is a later plot point from 2wei, and thus they cannot truly answer you in the anime topics because it's a spoiler. So they try to present the clues available that hint towards that future spoiler, but you denounce them as if they don't know what they're talking about.

Ponder on how frustrating that can get.

[The Green One]

Lets flip this around then. If Dengar is an anime only viewer and has not read 2wei and has no current intention to, wouldn't these cryptic references to stuff we understand not make a lick of sense to him/her and ultimately be irrelevant?

If Dengar is an anime only viewer then the discussion to Miyu's character should be restricted to information revealed by the anime only. Discussing Miyu's abilities and wether she won/lost the fights she was in and her so called "perfection" is a completely different can of worms.

While I don't agree with Dengar's point of view, lets at least keep this discussion fair and keep information from 2wei on out of this.

[GDB]

The thing is, the points being brought up are still relevant. The only difference is that Dengar is dismissing them outright as being of no consequence, even when they directly refute his "miss perfect" claims (like her beating half the cards herself, when in reality she only beat 1 herself).

All 2wei knowledge does is make you more aware of why those shortcomings are so important.

[The Green One]

Of course it does acknowledge that. My point is if Dengar hasn't it read it, those points won't mean anything to him/her and shouldn't be held over his/her head for ignoring it. Ignoring points from the first series is definitely a bad thing and is my primary issue with Dengar's argument.

This is an anime thread, not a manga thread, so even if 2wei perfectly counters Dengar's argument, which it does, it shouldn't be used since the anime hasn't gone there yet. You have more then enough ammunition for your side of the debate from the first series so you shouldn't be lacking.

So don't talk down to Dengar about stuff from 2wei when this isn't the thread for it.

[CBredbeard]

I'd like to point out that the hints I provided can be gathered from the anime if you thought about it a bit.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Being outclassed by someone who outclasses everyone isn't really a major shortcoming. I'm not sure what mistake you mean with Caster but I'll take your word for it that she did, and she never actually failed against Berserker. In fact she succeeded. Twice.

But yeah the fact that she kicks every type of ass in battle, school and life in general is okay, because she can't talk to people. Because that really is a skill that someone needs to live.


I'm getting a little tired of having to repeat myself though. You apparently value these insignificant things a lot more, and I respect that. And I already retracted my "Mary Sue" bit, but I'm still not liking Little Miss Perfect for reasons I've already stated, and I think I should be allowed to think that way.


It's not like I'm forcing anyone to join me in disliking her?

Oh wow, seriously? She was about to get killed by Berserker yet she didn't fail? If that's how you see it then Illya is even worse than her, since she killed Berserker once without using any kind noble phantasms. Only pure skills. And let's not forget she single-handedly defeated Saber and Assassin. Miyu's feats are nothing compared to hers.

We're arguing with you because the reasons you've provided are not valid save for Miyu being able to install the Saber card, and even then it's not like we have any idea how difficult it is. We don't have enough information to complain at the moment. This feels like blind hate to me.

But it's useless to continue further, no matter what type of argument we use, you either ignore it or twist it. Feel free to keep hating her. Hopefully you'll change your mind if they ever make a second season.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kanon

But it's useless to continue further, no matter what type of argument we use, you either ignore it or twist it. Feel free to keep hating her. Hopefully you'll change your mind if they ever make a second season.

"Hate" is a very strong word, although that's not really the point here.

I'll respect that it's impossible for you people to see things from another person's point of view since you apparently can't "unlearn" what you know, and translate any "almost nonexistent hint" into "obvious foreshadowing". I'm sorry, things don't work that way without the foreknowledge. Maybe some lucky guy or super genius figured out that she could Install right when the concept was first introduced but I didn't.

Originally Posted by Kanon

But it's useless to continue further, no matter what type of argument we use, you either ignore it or twist it.

Not sure who's doing the twisting here. Me, or the people who downplay someone breaking not one, but two concrete blocks using only their forehead, by saying "yeah but someone put a third concrete block there which she couldn't break", and at the same time up-playing the involvement of a girl who only "helped". Yes, the day would have been lost if she weren't there, but no one alive in the world ever has ever credited someone for "helping". Why start now?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

and at the same time up-playing the involvement of a girl who only "helped". Yes, the day would have been lost if she weren't there, but no one alive in the world ever has ever credited someone for "helping". Why start now?

So why does Miyu get credit? You could say she just "helped" Illya, considering Illya has a more impressive victory total over the cards. What constitutes "helping" vs "doing"? Does Miyu get credit because she landed the killing blow, and nothing else matters? Does she get credit for Saber because Illya passed out? Does she get credit vs Assassin because Illya left without collecting the card?

[Dengar]

I'm not sure, other than her two freakouts, both of which weren't really her being herself, Illya has yet to be the MVP in any battle.

Ok I understand if this bit sounds a bit weird. But I just don't think "flipping out and becoming someone else" is really any measure of skill.

But uhhh, I've been too heated about defending myself against so many assaults from all sides. I am sorry. But the Install thing -really- threw me off.

[GDB]

Well, Miyu's only solo victory involved just ambushing Rider and using Gae Bolg. I'd hardly call that MVP worthy or any measure of skill either.

[Dengar]

I suppose someone else could see it that way. To me it just seems like someone who can't possibly have been in a battle before suddenly being able to use their newly acquired stick with a lot more ability than is humanly possible. And really, any defense that borders on spoiling isn't really a proper defense to someone who only has so much info (namely the info that has been given to me) to work with (not to mention very unfair).

That being said, I -really- don't like the "perfect at everything transfer student who turns out to be instantly better at the hero'ing too", whether she won every single battle or not isn't really the issue here, it's the unrealistic amount of skill she possesses that throws me off every time. Illya at least has a visible learning curve.

[novalysis]

Miyu's unrealistic level of skill does have a very plot related reason, which the first season is completely unable to address, and doesn't even hint at it because certain scenes were omitted.

[Dengar]

Yeah... That doesn't really help me much, does it? This isn't asking for spoilers. This is me stating a fact: That this is very nonsensical to me without access to more detailed information that the anime itself does not provide.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Dengar

That being said, I -really- don't like the "perfect at everything transfer student who turns out to be instantly better at the hero'ing too", whether she won every single battle or not isn't really the issue here, it's the unrealistic amount of skill she possesses that throws me off every time. Illya at least has a visible learning curve.

Miyu isn't better at everything. It took her quite a while to grasp the concept of flying, and even then she couldn't do it the same way as Ilya who not only got it on her first try, but was able to apply it perfectly and avoid all of Caster's magic projectiles. I don't see how you would think that's a "visible learning curve" for Ilya. There is also Ilya's Installation of the Class Cards when it has been stated that the cards appeared only a few months ago. Whether it was done consciously or subconsciously is irrelevant - either way, how and when could she have possibly learned to do that when the cards themselves are not that old?

The only real "talent" Miyu has displayed so far is her performance in school, and even then it's uncertain whether it's actually her natural ability or something she studied diligently to acquire because there is nothing known about her background.

[Dengar]

Illya's victories have been either explained or properly foreshadowed. Nothing I've seen in the anime up until this point whatsoever appears to guarantee that Miyu will ever turn out to be anything other than a ridiculous natural at everything except imagination.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The only real "talent" Miyu has displayed so far is her performance in school

And pulling off a magic that no one in the world knows about by seeing it done by someone else only once.

[Triple_R]

Well, in fairness to Dengar, if we do a straight-up comparison between Illya and Miyu (sticking just to what the anime has shown)...

Miyu Advantages:

More Intelligent - Demonstrated in school.
More Focused - Miyu doesn't seem to waver as much as Illya does.
Better Fighter - Miyu landed very quick, impressive, decisive killing blows on Rider and Berseker.
Faster Running Speed - Demonstrated in school.
Better Cook - Demonstrated in school, and reinforced by being a maid.
More Cool, Calm,and Collected - Illya isn't as composed in combat as Miyu is.
More Courageous - Demonstrated by Miyu going it alone against Berserker.
More Adept at Magic - Miyu gets the technical side of Nasuverse magic more than Illya does.


Illya Advantages:

More Imagination - Demonstrated by actual flight.
Warmer Personality - Mixes with others more easily, naturally friendly.
More Potential at Magic - Illya seems to have more raw magical potential than Miyu given what happened in the Saber and Assassin fights.

In other categories, I'd say it's a toss-up.


So on the whole, Illya has a lot of catching up to do before she can truly stand on par with Miyu. I don't seriously think that Miyu is a Mary Sue, but it seems a bit imbalanced between her and Illya now.

I still like Miyu as a character, but I can see why this would be disconcerting to some viewers.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Illya's victories have been either explained or properly foreshadowed. Nothing I've seen in the anime up until this point whatsoever appears to guarantee that Miyu will ever turn out to be anything other than a ridiculous natural at everything except imagination.



And pulling off a magic that no one in the world knows about by seeing it done by someone else only once.

I do not wish to discuss whether you view Miyu as perfect or not, but let me say something about her being able to do "Install".

Silver Link removed or changed two important things compared to the manga in that scene:

1. Miyu told Sapphire that she doesn't want anyone to find out about install, that's why she wanted to be alone. This line was removed.
2. Miyu didn't say "Oh, I saw Ilya doing it once before", but more something like "Even Ilya could do it, why didn't I ever do this before?"

The first time I read this scene a few years ago, I thought Miyu is definitely hiding something. Why does she know the incantation for the Holy Grail War Summon? It can't be because of Ilya, because Ilya simply skipped the process. I saw it as foreshadowing because we basically know nothing of Miyu in the first season and Ilya's questions in episode 8 like "Where is her family?" or "Is she an orphan?" are deliberately left unanswered.

So I do understand why you are left confused and feel like it is an asspull because the animation studio screwed up. I cannot understand their actions, especially after they apparently announced an adaptation for 2wei just now (probably because the preorder sales are doing very well).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Illya's victories have been either explained or properly foreshadowed.

Miyu had a golden gun (James Bond reference ftw) in the shape of a spear. I'd say that's a pretty good explanation for some victories.

And pulling off a magic that no one in the world knows about by seeing it done by someone else only once.

To be fair, we have no idea how difficult it is. For all we know, it's insanely easy, but just no one knew such a thing existed.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Illya's victories have been either explained or properly foreshadowed. Nothing I've seen in the anime up until this point whatsoever appears to guarantee that Miyu will ever turn out to be anything other than a ridiculous natural at everything except imagination.

And Miyu is a natural for having a sure-kill weapon? Remember that Ilya had no problems using Include on her Archer card either. It just so happened that a bow by itself is useless compared to a legendary spear.

Originally Posted by Dengar

And pulling off a magic that no one in the world knows about by seeing it done by someone else only once.

As opposed to someone using high level magic on her own with no frame of reference to copy from?

We don't know how much Miyu knew before Luvia took her in or where she even came from. Ilya however has been established to know nothing about magic and magecraft before Rin appeared and yet she can keep up with Miyu just fine.