Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Baixinho

Yes he was relieved as he was dying, that's exactly why he doesn't need to be alive to have a happy end.
I'm not talking about rainbow ending at all..... I am saying that being alive is not a happy end for Lelouch, as he would probably NOT be happy.

But him surviving because he has Charles Code is all but a happy end, unless you assume that living forever with CC is enough for him to be happy for eternity. Did you actually see him being happy after Ep 18? Yes he did overcome Nunally's death, but he lost his will to live in the process. CC's comeback didn't change anything about that. The only thing that could bring him happiness in the end was to have been able to give a tomorrow to the world, to his sister and to all the ones he cared about. Remember CC's line as she was crying : Suzaku stabbing him was his way to compensate for his sins. Either he is really dead, and then it means that he died happily, or he is not dead and from then there are only 2 possiblities :
- he planned it, and thus his way to redeem himself is going into exile. Then by definition his exile will be a torture to him.

Lelouch's way to compensate is what made CC shed a tear, meaning that by all means he did not plan something that was happy.

To begin with,
Living with C.C for all eternity while being happy(If he got code from Charless), but because of his actions not being able to meet his sister, suzaku etc as an atonement = He is happy.
Then C.C's tears would've been because she wasn't sure (or didn't even know) wheather Lelouch would live or die, or then she cried because Lelouch would sacrifise his bonds with Nunaly, Suzaku and so on.. for sake of their happiness and sake of the world.

- he didn't plan it, and death was actually his way to redeem himself, and his survival made his redemption a failure. He will then have to find another way to atone for his sins, which can not be seen as a happy end.

Or then some one convinces that those sins are not those to be redeemed = happy ending for him.
But then again, I quite agree with you on this matter.

Plus, if you had not realized it already, immortality is not a blessing, it is a curse. CC's words in Episode 15 about death being necessary to enjoy life is very true.

No matter how you look at it, this death was the best thing that could happen to Lelouch, as he was at least able to be happy when he died.

You realize what C.C did on episode 15 and episode 22?

Originally Posted by Utau

this actually pose a point. Assuming he is immortal, he would probably regret it someday for sure not because living for an e\ternity is something but due to when he witness his sister grow old and die. I don't think he is able to handle that anymore, there simply won't be any miracles that will save Nunnally this time only reality will proceed next.

There's particularry a difference between witnessing loved ones dead alone (real C.C wasn't quite there) and witnessing a dead of loved one, with some some one you love/care deeply besides you.
+ Actually Lelouch was able to overcome Nunaly's death as he created a new resolve(He got out of depression), was it because of C.C, Suzaku, Rollo, the truth...(resolve other than only death)

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Levy

I thought so, too. And I'm kind of disappointed about the whole 'redeption' stuff many people see behind Lelouch's death.
He's never been good, otherwise, his real power has been the courage to became the most evil being the world has ever know, summon all the evil on himself and brought it to destruction with him.

And after lurked for a looong while, I have a very shy question to all the people that are still all "this and that must DIE/do not deserve the future they get"
Most of you is clearly speaking in favour of Lelouch, but don't you think that the world as it is now is what Lelouch really wished for in the end?

He wished for a renewed world and wanted to entrust it to the people. It's basically what he said confronting both his father and Schneizel, and it's what he wanted in the end.. He wanted karen to live, he wanted Nunnaly to live and not follow his path, he wanted Suzaku to find a way to atone for his burden, and not because he was a gentle soul, but because he was lungimirant enough to understand he was the only one that helds the real power to achieve all of these, since he has both the power of the King and the "determination to destroy himself and the world."

None else has but him. And taking over his shoulders all the evil he was able to perform, he achieved the goal of renewed the world. But you should not see him as a martyr, because what he did was really evil and what he wanted was not to carve his name in the history as the name of a saint, but rather, as the name of the abomination we don't want to see happen, never again.
This is what he really does, and this is what makes his character so wonderfull, and not quite the standard hero.

I agree with most of your statement, however, even if he realize he has such a power, doesn't it take someone who has the courage and kindness to willingly sacrifice himself in order to achieve this result? Also, to take all the blame and hatred from the world without the world knowing, to become an unsung hero, many will not be able to coup with that even if they have that power. While i agree with your post that he's not redeeming himself, I think you are undermining his kindness, which i think is the motor that keeps him running and seeing through the whole plan.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

While i agree with your post that he's not redeeming himself, I think you are undermining his kindness, which I think is the motor that keeps him running and seeing through the whole plan.

I prefer to leave part of the psycology of characters up to the fan. You may think Lelouch is kind, while I don't, and that's fair enough. What I was focusing on, is that is more a reasoning that his emotions that, IMHO, triggered him into pursuing his plan. That's all.

@Diedrupo
Lelouch was indeed kind of lost and moving toward self destruction back in turn 19, it's only after he 'defeated' Charles and Marianne that he choose to make use of all his ruthless determination to achieve the future he desired. You are right, just there he realize he was doing it wrong from the very start, but there he realized also that what he wanted to do is to push it to the extreme none else, beside their desire for a change, would dare to reach, since he's lost all the moral limitations than normally stops human beings from doing the things he's done. Again, this not makes him a hero or a saint, just a goddamn interesting character with a quite unique (Thank God!) personality and mind system.

About Karen...
Obviously Lelouch won't stop her to join the battle, and on the battlefield is all up to her skills has a fighter, but what I wanted to emphasize is that Lelouch, unlike his fanbase, has never openly shown feelings of revenge or animosity toward anyone of the BK (beside Diethard), and particulary Karen, that might be the only one he's somehow emotionally attached (no pairing hint here from me, never liked the KaLulu, just referring to the general relationship).

[Kagetsuchi]

My god , this topic is still kicking about the subject about lulu if he's dead or alive lets move on to something else please.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by whiter

To begin with,
Living with C.C for all eternity while being happy(If he got code from Charless), but because of his actions not being able to meet his sister, suzaku etc as an atonement = He is happy.
Then C.C's tears would've been because she wasn't sure (or didn't even know) wheather Lelouch would live or die, or then she cried because Lelouch would sacrifise his bonds with Nunaly, Suzaku and so on.. for sake of their happiness and sake of the world.

See, I don't see how Lelouch could of gotten Charle's Code. He would of had to of gotten it when he destroyed Charles and lost his Geass.
It is curious how he could of survived, but if Mao could survive all those gunshots........

I think Nunnally only got those flashes is because they were so close and brother as sister.
Remember that fight when Anya had her freak out just by coming in contact with Lelouch during the fight in episode 18? Neither of them had a Code then

It is odd how out of all the major cast it was Suzaku who got the most closure. He got a free Japan, he got his punishment, he shall spend the rest of his days serving Nunnally, and Euphy's absolution.

C.C. is right back where she started from. Though with a better outlook on her immortal life. We never even got to know her name.

I'm of the mind that they left Lelouch's fate open so if they wanted to in the future they could make a movie if there was demand for one. There couldn't be a decent movie without Lelouch with his Geass. Even Kallen still has her key for the Guren.

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

You want a repeat of the 1980's cartoon version of Heidi?

I just like the idea of all of them laughing then jumping up into the air in a freeze frame.

[DmonHiro]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

I think Nunnally only got those flashes is because they were so close and brother as sister.
Remember that fight when Anya had her freak out just by coming in contact with Lelouch during the fight in episode 18? Neither of them had a Code then

No no, Anya freaked out when in contact with C.C., not Lulu. That was because of the link between C.C. and Maryanne

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

C.C. is right back where she started from. Though with a better outlook on her immortal life. We never even got to know her name.

I'm of the mind that they left Lelouch's fate open so if they wanted to in the future they could make a movie if there was demand for one. There couldn't be a decent movie without Lelouch with his Geass. Even Kallen still has her key for the Guren.

I really don't think they can make a movie or any kind of continuation of the story with Lelouch that would be the least bit exciting. The Zero Requiem was everything Lelouch and Suzaku lived for up until the very end of the story. If Lelouch has to come back because someone new (or old) is making trouble, it just goes to emphasize the lack of finality and thought put into the Zero Requiem. The story absolutely has to end there or everything that happened after Charles and Marianne died in the World of C is pointless. If they had some new movie, they would probably have to make it a side story that happened sometime during the course of the series.

I really want them to wrap up everything we know about C.C., Geass, the gods, etc. because NO answers were given to that. (why do we see Jupiter? what are those gods really doing? why is there a Geass power to begin with? why were thought elevators and the ragnorak junction hidden in the earth? is the story a continuation of our own timeline? what is C.C.'s real name? and more) I was very shocked that they never put any of these issues to rest for a story they wanted to absolutely end.... because while they ended Lelouch's story, the Code Geass universe is still very much a mystery.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by killbethy

I really don't think they can make a movie or any kind of continuation of the story with Lelouch that would be the least bit exciting. The Zero Requiem was everything Lelouch and Suzaku lived for up until the very end of the story. If Lelouch has to come back because someone new (or old) is making trouble, it just goes to emphasize the lack of finality and thought put into the Zero Requiem. They story absolutely has to end there or everything that happened after Charles and Marianne died in the World of C is pointless. If they had some new movie, they would probably have to make it a side story that happened sometime during the course of the series.

I really want them to wrap up everything we know about C.C., Geass, the gods, etc. because NO answers were given to that. (why do we see Jupiter? what are those gods really doing? why is there a Geass power to begin with? why were thought elevators and the ragnorak junction hidden in the earth? is the story a continuation of our own timeline? what is C.C.'s real name? and more) I was very shocked that they never put any of these issues to rest for a story they wanted to absolutely end.... because while they ended Lelouch's story, the Code Geass universe is still very much a mystery.

All of those questions could be answered within the frame of Lelouch and CC talking (which would spell it out that Lelouch is alive more clearly) or even traveling to discover those secrets. Not like they have much else to do at this point . I doubt any of it will be explained, though, seems to me the series is done.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by whiter

To begin with,
Living with C.C for all eternity while being happy(If he got code from Charless), but because of his actions not being able to meet his sister, suzaku etc as an atonement = He is happy.
Then C.C's tears would've been because she wasn't sure (or didn't even know) wheather Lelouch would live or die, or then she cried because Lelouch would sacrifise his bonds with Nunaly, Suzaku and so on.. for sake of their happiness and sake of the world.

But you're making an assumption here : you assume that he would be happy just because being with CC. Which I can't agree with because CC has never been shown to be his reason to live, Nunally was.
Once again you're assuming that she could be unsure. Yet nothing shows that. And you said it yourself, he would sacrifice his bonds with Nunnally, Suzaku, Kallen and the others. You're never happy doing this and living with those kind of bonds severed. And also it would not be for the sake of their happiness : did you miss what Nunally said when Lelouch died? Such a world isn't worth it if Lelouch is not there. Exile of the one they love would in no way bring them happiness.

Or then some one convinces that those sins are not those to be redeemed = happy ending for him.
But then again, I quite agree with you on this matter.

Not to be redeemed? I can't agree with that : he killed thousands, Geassed tens of thousands of people, bent the world into his obedience using the threat of the Damocles, cold-bloodily killed his own half brother ...

You realize what C.C did on episode 15 and episode 22?

And you realize that I'm not talking about what happened in the show, but more about the philosophical question of immortality, right?

Spoiler for length and off topic:

I don't care which message the directors decided to convey in the later episodes of the show, I am saying that eternal happiness is something that does not exist. Life is bound to become less and less exciting and enjoyable with the flow of time. If you know the mathematical concept of a limit, you could sum up my point of view on the matter by saying that enjoyment tends to zero when time tends to infinity. Eternity is a concept that one can only foresee, and while eternal love and eternal happiness are nice concepts, they are utopias which only exist because we are needing to believe that what we are all looking after (happiness) is something that can last forever. But it is not true, and what makes happiness so enjoyable is that it doesn't last : if it lasted we would ultimately get used to it and we would soon feel the need to look after something else. Because people need change in their lives, they need movement. As Lelouch said, they need a tomorrow.
But in an eternal life, you will get past a point where there will be nothing new to you, you will have experienced everything. You will then not be able to find this tomorrow anymore, and you'll end up in the same state of mind as CC was in Episode 15. If the directors decided to make her change her mind, it was obviously because you can't convey such a message in a show, especially a show for teenagers. They had to finish the show showing that there must still be hope. But these kind of messages are not to be taken in the first degree. Once one has enough experienced in life, one sees that these messages are far from what it actually means to live one's life. It's not something sad with no hope or anything, it is just really different from what these kind of shows convey.

[reaper_unique]

Originally Posted by Kagetsuchi

My god , this topic is still kicking about the subject about lulu if he's dead or alive lets move on to something else please.

what else is there to talk about for the next, well hmm couple of months or years
It's pretty much the one thing that most of us are curious about.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Kagetsuchi

My god , this topic is still kicking about the subject about lulu if he's dead or alive lets move on to something else please.

Umm... Yea, Anya didn't have her Britannia tattoo on her arm anymore!!! There, something else to talk about.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

This isn't the case. What if Suzaku had killed Kallen on the battlefield? What if she died during the mt. fuji explosion? Lelouch didn't care if anyone died (except for possibly Nunnally), he kept doing what he was doing because of his plan.

While he's not God (and I say that loosely), he did want Kallen to oppose him and live to be the one to “kill” Suzaku it seems...Honestly after he killed a $hitload of KoR's who else could believably kill him? I think it's fair to suggest that Kallen surviving to kill Suzaku was a contingency in Zero’s requim…I’d say Kallen immediately knew he was alive when she saw him super-sperming those bullet-blasts and unleashing his fug-zangpaktou on Lulu…Kinda makes you wonder WTH she was thinking for like the last 5 eps or so since she finally understood Lulu’s atonement when that never dawned on her before despite every clue in the book…

[mouhitori]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

Umm... Yea, Anya didn't have her Britannia tattoo on her arm anymore!!! There, something else to talk about.

Or we can all think on alternative ending that might be done as a movie.
Let your imagination run wild, people.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

While he's not God (and I say that loosely), he did want Kallen to oppose him and live to be the one to “kill” Suzaku it seems...Honestly after he killed a $hitload of KoR's who else could believably kill him? I think it's fair to suggest that Kallen surviving to kill Suzaku was a contingency in Zero’s requim…I’d say Kallen immediately knew he was alive when she saw him super-sperming those bullet-blasts and unleashing his fug-zangpaktou on Lulu…Kinda makes you wonder WTH she was thinking for like the last 5 eps or so since she finally understood Lulu’s atonement when that never dawned on her before despite every clue in the book…

We should be thankful she understood everything even if it was kinda late. Her character appeared to have dropped a 50 or so points in IQ throughout R2.

[mr.questionguy]

Whether Lelouch is alive or dead there MUST BE AN OVA!!!Seriously,something so we can be satisfied with,like kallens feelings for lulu or some other minor issue,a new season would be too much cuz the show is pretty much over.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by killbethy

I really don't think they can make a movie or any kind of continuation of the story with Lelouch that would be the least bit exciting. The Zero Requiem was everything Lelouch and Suzaku lived for up until the very end of the story. If Lelouch has to come back because someone new (or old) is making trouble, it just goes to emphasize the lack of finality and thought put into the Zero Requiem. The story absolutely has to end there or everything that happened after Charles and Marianne died in the World of C is pointless. If they had some new movie, they would probably have to make it a side story that happened sometime during the course of the series.

I really want them to wrap up everything we know about C.C., Geass, the gods, etc. because NO answers were given to that. (why do we see Jupiter? what are those gods really doing? why is there a Geass power to begin with? why were thought elevators and the ragnorak junction hidden in the earth? is the story a continuation of our own timeline? what is C.C.'s real name? and more) I was very shocked that they never put any of these issues to rest for a story they wanted to absolutely end.... because while they ended Lelouch's story, the Code Geass universe is still very much a mystery.

I don't see why Lelouch being alive ruins Zero's Requiem. It was for the public to see and hate Lelouch so they could also see him die.

If they ever do make a movie he would just have to avoid the public masses seeing his face. It wouldn't matter if a select few saw him.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

We should be thankful she understood everything even if it was kinda late. Her character appeared to have dropped a 50 or so points in IQ throughout R2.

It was irritating how Kallen only too late realized she never should of doubted Lelouch.
It was nice that she got the last real good kiss in and she keeps the Guren Key around her neck for all to see. That was his gift to her.
I would of just been really happy with the ending if she had an 'idea' he could still be alive and could see him again one day.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Hai

He is alive, it's so obvious. Please tell me the last 10 pages of disuccson wans't about whether he lived or not. Cause he is alive lol...

The last 191 pages were about his life or death. And some shipping.

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

I don't see why Lelouch being alive ruins Zero's Requiem. It was for the public to see and hate Lelouch so they could also see him die.

If they ever do make a movie he would just have to avoid the public masses seeing his face. It wouldn't matter if a select few saw him.

Nono, not Lelouch being alive... Lelouch having to INTERVENE in any sort of conflict, etc. The story of "Lelouch of the Rebellion" has to be finished, or the Zero Requiem didn't serve its purpose (rendering all the episodes dedicated to it pointless). So if they want to make a movie or something with Lelouch in it, if it took place after the end of the anime, Lelouch couldn't have any major action points (in other words, his actions shouldn't having anything to do with the state of the world).... he could pluck oranges for a whole movie , but not have any major role that would affect anyone. The only other option is to go off and make the movie a side-story that takes place before the end of the anime's storyline so Lelouch could still have a major role and it would be like watching the series.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by killbethy

Nono, not Lelouch being alive... Lelouch having to INTERVENE in any sort of conflict, etc. The story of "Lelouch of the Rebellion" has to be finished, or the Zero Requiem didn't serve its purpose (rendering all the episodes dedicated to it pointless). So if they want to make a movie or something with Lelouch in it, if it took place after the end of the anime, Lelouch couldn't have any major action points (in other words, his actions shouldn't having anything to do with the state of the world).... he could pluck oranges for a whole movie , but not have any major role that would affect anyone. The only other option is to go off and make the movie a side-story that takes place before the end of the anime's storyline so Lelouch could still have a major role and it would be like watching the series.

When has Lelouch ever had a major role in the combat? He's always been the commander. I doubt he would just sit back as someone messed with his plan for the world.
I think all the keys are there for. Lelouch 'could be' alive, C.C. is just how she was, Suzaku is alive, Jeremiah is alive in case someone needs de-Geassing, and Kallen is alive and still has the key to her Guren. You even still have Lloyd and Rakshata alive and well. Just image what would happen if they cooperated and made something? We saw what happened when Lloyd just advanced her Guren.
Not to mention most of the supporting cast is still alive. It was odd how few died in that last major battle.