AnimeSuki Forums

dark998 · 2012-10-09, 01:05

Wow, very emotive episode. Leaving aside the fact they rushed the conclusion of the Skullreaper fight, the rest of the episode was quite nice. Especially that last dialogue between Asuna, Kirito and Kayaba, while Aincrad crumbles in the background.

This could have been THE END, but rather marks the start of something new and different, so looking forward to that, in addition to the new OP/ED.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 02:07

Tron has it, GITS has it, Terminator has it, to name but just a few...

Why can't SAO also have a computational system that evolves out of its creators hands too?

Kaioshin Sama · 2012-10-09, 02:20

I'm very mixed on this episode. For one I'm not sure why it was chosen to end the game so abruptly, honestly I think it would have helped if I had some time to prepare for this and there was any indication that the game was going to end this week. I think it would have helped the emotional impact of the episode a little if that were the case because as it is I just find myself asking, "wait wut?! That's it! It's over just like that and on that note!"

I'd like to say the final duel with Kayaba was epic, but honestly I found it a little week. The fights have not been a strong point of this series, but I would have kind of expected a little better of the last one. Instead it's basically the exact same thing we've seen in almost every main storyline fight so far (and even some of the side arcs) which is seriously getting old and predictable now and I really hope it doesn't carry over into the next arc. Fight starts, Kirito is doing well but quickly gets overwhelmed by an overpowering enemy, his gal pal rushes in and ends up being mortally wounded (in this case just outright ignoring an in game status effect), Kirito steels himself and after being near death he wins with a one hit Ko. It's literally the exact same thing again even for the final battle only this time we get the implication that Kirito was actually in some sort of Schrodinger's Ko'ed zone ala Mother 3 for the GBA where he's not quite alive or dead until all the numbers finish resolving, which apparently gave him enough time to get Kayaba to not block his last little stab for some reason.

I'm not one too usually complain about this sort of thing, but it all feels way to convenient and well...that's it really, it's over, not much else to say. I just don't get it...why did this game end here and this abruptly? Why does everything in this show feel like it begins and then ends abruptly before I even really have a chance to get involved in things. I really hope whatever the next arc is it's something that takes it's time a little more and mixes things up a bit so that it's not just the same formula for every battle.

aohige · 2012-10-09, 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Tron has it, GITS has it, Terminator has it, to name but just a few...

Why can't SAO also have a computational system that evolves out of its creators hands too?

All of those you mentioned has the concept as the base foundation of the story.
The difference is, those tales took the concept and ran with it.
Here, it comes up pretty much out of the blue, unexpectedly.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

All of those you mentioned has the concept as the base foundation of the story.
The difference is, those tales took the concept and ran with it.
Here, it comes up pretty much out of the blue, unexpectedly.

For me it was hinted even during the murder mystery. People trying to find ways around the system achieve something that wasn't of the original design.

For example poisoning, that seemed to be a surprise was it a known skill or something that they came up with? Asuna's soysauce, sleep pking is another. Then later on we get Asuna's turbo boost, followed by a rouge system AI. I dunno how much more examples are needed for SAO to fit in the category of systems that become something bigger then they originally designed for. Actually Kayaba flipping the hard mode switch kinda was the biggest thing imho!

aohige · 2012-10-09, 04:09

The problem is, all of the things you mentioned have been presented with very little context, giving it no borders between actual concept behind the setting or simple D.E.M.

The titles you mentioned are not at all ambiguous about its concepts.
You have to know somewhere in the back of your mind, that you're comparing apples to oranges.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

The problem is, all of the things you mentioned have been presented with very little context, giving it no borders between actual concept behind the setting or simple D.E.M.

The titles you mentioned are not at all ambiguous about its concepts.
You have to know somewhere in the back of your mind, that you're comparing apples to oranges.

Actually Terminator isn't that clear from the first movie, we get dream sequences, but its the all that followed it that really fleshes out what happened.

Anything Shirow Masumune based has more layers then a GM modified onion and I don't think there is such a thing as non ambiguous about any of his works.

It is only comparing apples and oranges if you take the whole work and nit pick, rather then taking it as an example of systems evolving past their original designs is kind of a old fruit with sci fi especially with VR and there are many takes on it.

VR + AI + crazy scientist = Come on expect the system to not behave!!!

Kafriel · 2012-10-09, 04:38

Not that it matters, now that it's all over, but...twin swords really was a unique skill after all. The conditions were super-hard to guess though :P

aohige · 2012-10-09, 04:39

I'm repeating myself, so I'll stop after this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_moon

VR + AI + crazy scientist = Come on expect the system to not behave!!!

All of those are presented individually with no context to a certain concept, thus giving the impression of D.E.M.
If the intention was to link these to an established concept, they did a very shitty job at it.
All the criticism it's getting all comes down to that.

You don't blame the audience for the poor execution.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

I hate repeating myself, so I'll stop after this.

All of those are presented individually with no context to a certain concept, thus giving the impression of D.E.M.
If the intention was to link these to an established concept, they did a very shitty job at it.

I wish ppl would stop use Deus Ex Machina in situations where it is not clear, as it really waters down its use. Kinda the same thing with Mary Sue.

Deus Ex Machina needs it to be totally out of the blue and an "asspull", and there have been hints each time we see Kirito fight of the user's "will" or what ever you want to call it influencing the system. Kirito isn't spending skill points on his speed stat during a fight, there must be a reason it is high lighted at least 3 times of him wanting to be faster. Kayaba even says the duel sword skill is given to the player with the fastest reactions (or something like that), he can't mean stats as then the skill should have gone to Asuna or another speed based player.

Yui saving them isn't an asspull as it is kinda hinted that she isn't a normal player when they meet her. Is her her revolting against the main system a DEM? No coz we get handed the explanation of why she did it.

Asuna overcoming her paralysis is a mini asspull, but it doesn't solve the problem, nor does does Kirito sudden strike fatal blow even when he should be dead. Why??? Because imho Kayaba lets him do it. It isn't DEM imho if the villian decides that "yeah I've had enough lets all go home now"

aohige · 2012-10-09, 05:00

Impression of.

Oh hey, there's a ghost.
Oh hey, she can move faster than what the game allows.
Oh hey, he can move although he's dead.

That's it. It comes out of nowhere, no pretext, no context, not even a vague reference.
Without the proper context, it will leave an impression of a D.E.M.

You can argue all day long if it's a D.E.M or not, It doesn't really matter.
The fact is, with a shitty execution of such, that's what people will take from it.

You can say how "I got it I got it", but you cannot make everyone else have your "englightment" when the source material fails to.
It's not your comprehension that's the problem, or other viewers. It's the staff's inability to execute it properly.

In other words, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying, they suck.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

Impression of.

Oh hey, there's a ghost.
Oh hey, she can move faster than what the game allows.

That's it. It comes out of nowhere, no pretext, no context, not even a vague reference.
Without the proper context, it will leave an impression of a D.E.M.

You can argue all day long if it's a D.E.M or not, It doesn't matter.
The fact is, with a shitty execution of such, that's what people will take from it.

Did I make that point clear?
You can say how "I got it I got it", but you cannot make everyone else have your "englightment" when the source material fails to.

I think we will just have to disagree, as personally I am enjoying the story and execution. So at least one member of the "audience" isn't left with an impression of DEM.

The rules you are putting out have not been established in the anime. My point is the creator of the game is happily surprised by how the players are able to influence the system. Therefore in SAO land from episode 14 players can affect the system by wanting something bad enough. It was hinted earlier, and now established. What is so hard to get about that point????

aohige · 2012-10-09, 05:14

Oh, I'm enjoying the anime fine.
But I won't deny it's extremely poorly made.

I just don't let small things like that get in the way of watching good porn.

You're a novel reader, are you not?
I think from a fan-point of view, these blemishes are insignificant, or in your case, non-existent.
But I can guarantee you the majority who may not be part of the fandom will disagree.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

Oh, I'm enjoying the anime fine.
But I won't deny it's extremely poorly made.

I just don't let small things like that get in the way of watching good porn.

You're a novel reader, are you not?
I think from a fan-point of view, these blemishes are insignificant, or in your case, non-existent.
But I can guarantee you the majority who may not be part of the fandom will disagree.

Not a novel reader, just don't agree with you. Also I don't assume stuff about people I don't know just coz they disagree with me.

Let me put this to you, is Pulp Fiction an example of poor execution of a story? Coz a metric poo ton of out of the blue happens if you look at it linearly and it only comes together at the end...

aohige · 2012-10-09, 05:21

That's different.
Baccano is the Pulp Fiction of anime, and they are grounded in the method they present as a premise of the show from the get-go.

An "ass-pull" is something convinient that comes out of nowhere unexpectedly, without context.
A "premise" is the complete opposite of that.

I've been saying that since the start of this conversation when you keep bringing up titles that's using PREMISE as their foundation.

Let's say... something like BTTF series is a good execution. The plots littered all over the place converage towards the end of each film, and even across film, in a way that makes complete sense and does not require the audience to excersize extra investigation.
THAT is a good example of forshadowing and convergence of plots.

***relentlessflame*** · 2012-10-09, 05:22

Anyway, guys, your argument is just going around in circles, so let's just agree to disagree and move on.

In the end, there are things in the story that could have been developed differently to make things a bit more clear and to give more foreshadowing/hints, and this would have alleviated some of the concerns that some people have. But, by the same token, I think many people are still watching anyway because the story manages to be reasonably entertaining, and they don't weigh whatever flaws there are as heavily in their own mind. So in the end we don't need to get so hung up on it.

I think almost all stories have flaws. The issue is really how much those flaws impact your own enjoyment.

aohige · 2012-10-09, 05:27

I'm in 100% agreement with relentless there.
It's evident that this show is littered with flaws, it's just not that big of a deal enough to not enjoy this MMO porno.

grey_moon · 2012-10-09, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

That's different.
Baccano is the Pulp Fiction of anime, and they are grounded in the method they present as a premise of the show from the get-go.

An "ass-pull" is something convinient that comes out of nowhere unexpectedly, without context.
A "premise" is the complete opposite of that.

I've been saying that since the start of this conversation when you keep bringing up titles that's using PREMISE as their foundation.

Errr isn't the VR world bit the premise of SAO??? Well that and being trapped and having to win the game to be freed.

If you could be so kind to explain to me how SAO's execution breaks PREMISE. Because I was just tying to use my timy list of examples of VR/AI not behaving the way it should, so why can't it happen in SAO???

Everything happened in the VR world where we don't know the rules, ok ok there is the hospital scene, but I'll go for the poetic license card there

And finally my point is Kayaba established how the system doesn't behave the way he designed it.

I get how the at times the story can be picked apart, but so can many things, personally I don't need to try hard to fit the pieces in place and forgive certain more stretchy bits.

Maybe it is a life time of watching far eastern martial dramas, get too used to seeing real ass-pulls

*EDIT*

Sorry RF just saw your msg after posting!!!

@aohige - I do respect your points and opinion, just at least in terms of SAO I don't agree with them xD

aohige · 2012-10-09, 08:02

^I can refute you on that, but I have a strong feeling that's gonna put us back in square one.

I actually enjoy the entire VR life aspect of SAO, including that insta-cooking, edible, customizable food, and ownership of houses.
The author's UO-roots definitely shows. (including OMG RED NAMES RUN)

"Corp Por"

mechalord · 2012-10-09, 09:08

This was the most anti-climactic ending to a story ever. I have mixed feelings about this show, now.

It's high on drama, particularly the melodrama. It's a character driven science fiction/cyberpunk action/suspense anime. And the end to this arc had very little action and suspense. We got the Matrix collapsing and the mad scientist but what was missing?

Heathcliff... wtf? A villain I didn't give a crap about. We hardly knew him as Heathcliff. The betrayal would have worked better if we had some episodes where we learn about how much he meant to his legion and how he was a leader in the game world.

Asuna and Kirito lovey dovey on the time. We get some filler about side characters. And then all of a sudden there is a killer boss and Heathcliff's real identity is uncovered. Heathcliff gives Kirito a chance to end the whole charade then and he does. Boom... game over, user wins!

I guess it would sort of makes sense, Kayaba is a mad scientist who wanted to create an artificial but organic feeling world. He would have been cool with game ending abruptly. The moral of the first arc... "You hardly know who people really are."

View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 14
10 out of 10: Near Perfect...	103	45.98%
9 out of 10 : Excellent...	58	25.89%
8 out of 10 : Very Good...	19	8.48%
7 out of 10 : Good...	16	7.14%
6 out of 10 : Average...	10	4.46%
5 out of 10 : Below Average...	1	0.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor...	5	2.23%
3 out of 10 : Bad...	3	1.34%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad...	1	0.45%
1 out of 10 : Tortuous...	8	3.57%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

2012-10-09, 02:07	Link #402
grey_moon Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!! Join Date: Dec 2004	Tron has it, GITS has it, Terminator has it, to name but just a few... Why can't SAO also have a computational system that evolves out of its creators hands too? __________________

2012-10-09, 04:09	Link #406
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	The problem is, all of the things you mentioned have been presented with very little context, giving it no borders between actual concept behind the setting or simple D.E.M. The titles you mentioned are not at all ambiguous about its concepts. You have to know somewhere in the back of your mind, that you're comparing apples to oranges. __________________

2012-10-09, 05:00	Link #411
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	Impression of. Oh hey, there's a ghost. Oh hey, she can move faster than what the game allows. Oh hey, he can move although he's dead. That's it. It comes out of nowhere, no pretext, no context, not even a vague reference. Without the proper context, it will leave an impression of a D.E.M. You can argue all day long if it's a D.E.M or not, It doesn't really matter. The fact is, with a shitty execution of such, that's what people will take from it. You can say how "I got it I got it", but you cannot make everyone else have your "englightment" when the source material fails to. It's not your comprehension that's the problem, or other viewers. It's the staff's inability to execute it properly. In other words, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying, they suck. __________________ Last edited by aohige; 2012-10-09 at 05:10.

2012-10-09, 05:14	Link #413
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	Oh, I'm enjoying the anime fine. But I won't deny it's extremely poorly made. I just don't let small things like that get in the way of watching good porn. You're a novel reader, are you not? I think from a fan-point of view, these blemishes are insignificant, or in your case, non-existent. But I can guarantee you the majority who may not be part of the fandom will disagree. __________________

2012-10-09, 01:05	Link #401
dark998 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009	Wow, very emotive episode. Leaving aside the fact they rushed the conclusion of the Skullreaper fight, the rest of the episode was quite nice. Especially that last dialogue between Asuna, Kirito and Kayaba, while Aincrad crumbles in the background. This could have been THE END, but rather marks the start of something new and different, so looking forward to that, in addition to the new OP/ED.

2012-10-09, 02:20	Link #403
Kaioshin Sama Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Neither Here nor There Age: 39	I'm very mixed on this episode. For one I'm not sure why it was chosen to end the game so abruptly, honestly I think it would have helped if I had some time to prepare for this and there was any indication that the game was going to end this week. I think it would have helped the emotional impact of the episode a little if that were the case because as it is I just find myself asking, "wait wut?! That's it! It's over just like that and on that note!" I'd like to say the final duel with Kayaba was epic, but honestly I found it a little week. The fights have not been a strong point of this series, but I would have kind of expected a little better of the last one. Instead it's basically the exact same thing we've seen in almost every main storyline fight so far (and even some of the side arcs) which is seriously getting old and predictable now and I really hope it doesn't carry over into the next arc. Fight starts, Kirito is doing well but quickly gets overwhelmed by an overpowering enemy, his gal pal rushes in and ends up being mortally wounded (in this case just outright ignoring an in game status effect), Kirito steels himself and after being near death he wins with a one hit Ko. It's literally the exact same thing again even for the final battle only this time we get the implication that Kirito was actually in some sort of Schrodinger's Ko'ed zone ala Mother 3 for the GBA where he's not quite alive or dead until all the numbers finish resolving, which apparently gave him enough time to get Kayaba to not block his last little stab for some reason. I'm not one too usually complain about this sort of thing, but it all feels way to convenient and well...that's it really, it's over, not much else to say. I just don't get it...why did this game end here and this abruptly? Why does everything in this show feel like it begins and then ends abruptly before I even really have a chance to get involved in things. I really hope whatever the next arc is it's something that takes it's time a little more and mixes things up a bit so that it's not just the same formula for every battle.

2012-10-09, 04:38	Link #408
Kafriel Senior Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Athens (GMT+2) Age: 35	Not that it matters, now that it's all over, but...twin swords really was a unique skill after all. The conditions were super-hard to guess though :P

2012-10-09, 05:21	Link #415
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	That's different. Baccano is the Pulp Fiction of anime, and they are grounded in the method they present as a premise of the show from the get-go. An "ass-pull" is something convinient that comes out of nowhere unexpectedly, without context. A "premise" is the complete opposite of that. I've been saying that since the start of this conversation when you keep bringing up titles that's using PREMISE as their foundation. Let's say... something like BTTF series is a good execution. The plots littered all over the place converage towards the end of each film, and even across film, in a way that makes complete sense and does not require the audience to excersize extra investigation. THAT is a good example of forshadowing and convergence of plots. __________________

2012-10-09, 05:22	Link #416
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	Anyway, guys, your argument is just going around in circles, so let's just agree to disagree and move on. In the end, there are things in the story that could have been developed differently to make things a bit more clear and to give more foreshadowing/hints, and this would have alleviated some of the concerns that some people have. But, by the same token, I think many people are still watching anyway because the story manages to be reasonably entertaining, and they don't weigh whatever flaws there are as heavily in their own mind. So in the end we don't need to get so hung up on it. I think almost all stories have flaws. The issue is really how much those flaws impact your own enjoyment. __________________ [...]

2012-10-09, 05:27	Link #417
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	I'm in 100% agreement with relentless there. It's evident that this show is littered with flaws, it's just not that big of a deal enough to not enjoy this MMO porno. __________________

2012-10-09, 08:02	Link #419
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	^I can refute you on that, but I have a strong feeling that's gonna put us back in square one. I actually enjoy the entire VR life aspect of SAO, including that insta-cooking, edible, customizable food, and ownership of houses. The author's UO-roots definitely shows. (including OMG RED NAMES RUN) "Corp Por" __________________

2012-10-09, 09:08	Link #420
mechalord Deploying Funnel Cakes Join Date: Jan 2008	This was the most anti-climactic ending to a story ever. I have mixed feelings about this show, now. It's high on drama, particularly the melodrama. It's a character driven science fiction/cyberpunk action/suspense anime. And the end to this arc had very little action and suspense. We got the Matrix collapsing and the mad scientist but what was missing? Heathcliff... wtf? A villain I didn't give a crap about. We hardly knew him as Heathcliff. The betrayal would have worked better if we had some episodes where we learn about how much he meant to his legion and how he was a leader in the game world. Asuna and Kirito lovey dovey on the time. We get some filler about side characters. And then all of a sudden there is a killer boss and Heathcliff's real identity is uncovered. Heathcliff gives Kirito a chance to end the whole charade then and he does. Boom... game over, user wins! I guess it would sort of makes sense, Kayaba is a mad scientist who wanted to create an artificial but organic feeling world. He would have been cool with game ending abruptly. The moral of the first arc... "You hardly know who people really are."