[Manga] Chapter 337 Discussion

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Rahan

Shikamaru has not enough intelligence about Itachi to take him on.

All he could know (what Sasuke knew) about Itachi was :

• his kunai throwing skills are awesome (kunai have always been proved useless in real combat in Naruto)
• he can make you faint and have funny illusions just by looking at you
• he can counter Sasuke's Chidori just like if it was a Sakura pre-timeskip's punch

Nothing about Itachi's main strengths and weaknesses (Sasuke had no idea what Amaterasu is nor how affected Itachi is after using it). Shika wouldn't be able to make something efficient.

I am sure these jutsu's are or were discribed....and Sasuke read them pretty much everyday... the clans secrets....he probably read it while Itachi made his appearance (he was reading stuff)

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The part about emotional plan is completely beside the point, Shika is emotional yes. But Kakashi's decision isn't emotional in anyways. The choice to strike Kakuzu with a MS attack or the Raikiri doesn't hold a schred of particular feeling, it's just a tactical decision.
You also say that Kakashi could have easily used the MS on Kakuzu and Hidan when they were immobilized whereas your point was that Kakashi could have used the MS if he was fighting alone.
You can't have one with the other, without the group Hidan and Kakuzu wouldn't have been immobilized, with the group they were immobilized (Kakuzu only for a short period of time though) but Kakashi chose not to use the MS.
At this point you can say that Kakashi may have become better with the MS and that he could have done a better work with it but this 1/an assumption and 2/not what Kakashi himself decided to do.

I think the emotional part is not besides the point. The person, who is mainly in charge of the plan, wanted to deal with Hidan alone in addition to having to use Kakuzu's blood in the process. Shikamaru is emotional, and the progress of his plan, such as his goal of trying to deal with Hidan alone and what he planned for Hidan at the end are all part of that emotional part. If Shikamaru had known about Kakashi's MS and if he was out of emotion, he might have asked Kakashi to warp Hidan, but that has never happened. So, by acting according to an emotionally set up plan, Kakashi was forced to act within the limits of that plan, not doing what he might have naturally done.

I gave the example of Kakashi using MS at the beginning mainly to say that his decision of not using MS has been highly affected by the group and plan he was a part of (I have most probably meant a few other things...). If I explained it correctly previously, my main point was to show that Kakashi's performance in that fight against Kakuzu does not actually represent his performance in a one on one fight. And, that part of the fight, his decision process there, supports that; he was limited by the group he is a part of. And, his decision of not using MS, does not tell he cannot use MS when he was having a one on one fight. And, if that plan would have allowed Kakashi to use MS at the beginning, and if he would have gotten rid of an Akatsuki member easily, in one attack, the perception of strength would have been highly different.

And, if you remove that emotional plan out of the picture, it can become a different fight from the beginning to the end. That means a possible win for Kakashi, unlike the Konohamaru vs Jiraiya scenario.

About avoiding Kakuzu attacks : the choice to avoid these attacks? He did only barely avoid the Wind attack that teared off his cloths to save himself. The Raiton he had to counter was indeed to save Shika & Chouji but without them he would have been the target anyway.
These 2 example show that when Kakashi tried to avoid the attack it was hard and when he had to block them he had to give it all.
Again Kakuzu was idle for only a short moment because Shika made sure of that. Kakashi alone wouldn't have had that.

The point is Kakashi did avoid the attack. And, instead of trying to save the others, he might have concentrated to save himself in addition to fully concentrating his most powerful attack while also avoiding those attacks. And, with MS at the beginning, he wouldn't have felt the need to try to avoid those attacks.

Also, just like Shika made sure Kakuzu was being idle, saving that chuunins also made sure that Kakashi was forced to stay limited in action.

Just as you assume that Kakashi is significantly slower without any indication of such weakness, I can say that Kakuzu should be twice as fast as he is because he's been awake and sealing 2 Bijuu since a week.
The difference of speed between Kakashi and Kakuzu's tentacles is huge no matter how you look at it anyway : Kakashi didn't only get caught twice, he get caught without even being able to try to dodge whereas he has the Sharingan.
At least the first time he was in middle-air so that may have been understandable but he was caught just as easily on the ground before he could even have the slightest reaction. And yeah he said "fast". Which when you were powerlessly immobilized was by definition "too fast". Way too fast.

You can assume, and I can assume, the point is both and neither is accurate unless we observe them in a one on one fight. Wasn't this a part of the point that I was trying to make?

And, regardless of your perception of the word fast, Kakashi didn't say too fast, and in his powerless condition, may not mean something to over exaggerate.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

It sure takes longer then normal :S

[majin_vegeta]

How much time has transpired since Shikimaru took Hidan away from the fight with the others?
Oh, and why does everyone think that Danzou is so badass? He was a canidate for Hokage when the third went up for it. It is only logical to assume that age has had the same effects on him that it had on the third. Danzou may have been a power player in the past, but I don't think an old timer like that would be good for Hokage in current times.

[Rahan]

Errr, I was kidding when I said Danzou for Hokage.

When the 3rd died, the advisors didn't ask him, but if he was that good, he could have taken action. That was definitely the best time for him : rival dead and village damaged because of the softness of his rival (who didn't kill Oro when he should have 10 years earlier).
If he didn't, it is either because he doesn't have the strength to back him up anymore or because he is calmed now. But in that case, I just don't understand why he gave Oro real infos (at least, about Yamato) if his target was simply Sasuke.

Anyways, I don't think he'll be a major player. At worst, if he makes his coup, it will be shortly before Konoha is invaded and he'll get crushed and saved by [insert here the name of the 6th hokage]. He is just there to add some spices.

[yinstro]

Spoiler:

well imo this may not be the end of hidan in any case, they sent back up to him i think they said, which is perfect in time to come there and save his ass if hidan goes beyond the limits of a humans. It is also a classic thing that shika plans work but fall just short due to lack of power knowledge or materials, and some one has to save him. Although that may be the line they are drawing now. I still would not be surprised if hidan had something else or something else to say before he died.

Naruto is different says yamato, i hope his training somehow is reflected in more than one move, that really is my worry, because really 1 move doesnt a superninja make. also his move seems weak, big explosion is nice, but really come on, sasuke has a chidori feild and ability to make a sword that cuts anything as well as blocks chakra flow or something and taijutsu blah blah, and thats not even every thing oro has shown him apparently. So yeah i hope his new skills are more than just a big blast crater type move

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You know there is one thing this arc will settle : under who Sasuke should have trained to accomplish his revenge.

Forget Kakashi, forget Orochimaru.
If Sasuke had followed Shikamaru's lead, Itachi would be long dead.

Are you becoming a Shikamaru fanboy?

I like how Kishimoto shows Shikamaru's "level up", i think this is the process in which real jounin are born. Shikamaru also demonstrated that his taijutsu is quite good, he could keep up with Hidan's movements when Hidan was not bound by the shadow, also he was fast enough to catch 2 akatsukians. We didn't see any genjutsu moves from him, but i'm sure he is quite good at dispelling such attacks.

The only thing i don't like about bloodline guys is that they never use normal jutsu, i mean Shika or Neji should use an elemental or summoning jutsu sometimes.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Rahan

Errr, I was kidding when I said Danzou for Hokage.

When the 3rd died, the advisors didn't ask him, but if he was that good, he could have taken action. That was definitely the best time for him : rival dead and village damaged because of the softness of his rival (who didn't kill Oro when he should have 10 years earlier).
If he didn't, it is either because he doesn't have the strength to back him up anymore or because he is calmed now. But in that case, I just don't understand why he gave Oro real infos (at least, about Yamato) if his target was simply Sasuke.

Anyways, I don't think he'll be a major player. At worst, if he makes his coup, it will be shortly before Konoha is invaded and he'll get crushed and saved by [insert here the name of the 6th hokage]. He is just there to add some spices.

[bold part] I guess it's obvious...back then the advisors (the 3rds comrades) werent advisors back then...they are the new (yeah they are pretty old now) advisors...if you ask me..shika should succeed them...as advisor...together with ino or sakura..

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

[bold part] I guess it's obvious...back then the advisors (the 3rds comrades) werent advisors back then...they are the new (yeah they are pretty old now) advisors...if you ask me..shika should succeed them...as advisor...together with ino or sakura..

I may be wrong, but weren't they the ones who asked Jiraiya first ? They had to have some kind of authority before Godaime was chosen if they were the ones naming him/her.

[kikko_s]

Originally Posted by Rahan

I may be wrong, but weren't they the ones who asked Jiraiya first ? They had to have some kind of authority before Godaime was chosen if they were the ones naming him/her.

Their words have weight, but I don't know if they're the ones who decide per se. I mean the words they used when asking Jiraiya were to the effect of "the village has decided" or "the village is asking you" or something like that. So there's probably still some kind of council, but they're near the top, the top being the hokage that the rest of the council chooses. Kind of like Cardinals and the Pope (maybe?).

[yinstro]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Are you becoming a Shikamaru fanboy?

I like how Kishimoto shows Shikamaru's "level up", i think this is the process in which real jounin are born. Shikamaru also demonstrated that his taijutsu is quite good, he could keep up with Hidan's movements when Hidan was not bound by the shadow, also he was fast enough to catch 2 akatsukians. We didn't see any genjutsu moves from him, but i'm sure he is quite good at dispelling such attacks.

The only thing i don't like about bloodline guys is that they never use normal jutsu, i mean Shika or Neji should use an elemental or summoning jutsu sometimes.

i dont think its really that he can keep up with hidans taijutsu so much as superior planning, he took hidan to his grounds, he controls where he can and cant go with superior strategy. With teh explosive tags and visible lines, he controlled hidans movements, the amount of attacks hidan could do without triggering the traps was limited. from the time hidan followed shika he was in his trap, set up from the beginning with him in mind.

Hidan showed great taijutsu on par with asuma, dodged his opponents attacks pretty easily in general, Na i blame shika's planning and understanding his opponent.

[Missilebuster]

hmmm takin a long time for the chapter to come out... also wheres the chapter thread?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by yinstro

i dont think its really that he can keep up with hidans taijutsu so much as superior planning, he took hidan to his grounds, he controls where he can and cant go with superior strategy. With teh explosive tags and visible lines, he controlled hidans movements, the amount of attacks hidan could do without triggering the traps was limited. from the time hidan followed shika he was in his trap, set up from the beginning with him in mind.

Hidan showed great taijutsu on par with asuma, dodged his opponents attacks pretty easily in general, Na i blame shika's planning and understanding his opponent.

I was referring to the whole fight, from the beginning when he caught both of them up until he charged on Hidan to make a 1on1 fight. Hidan was even shocked that Shika attacked him. It is only the end game when Hidan was brought by Shikamaru to that secret set up place.

Also as we saw Hidan was not so sure to survive the explosion of all those tags, otherwise he would simply trigger the explosion so that Shikamaru is killed by his own explosive while Hidan simply walks away. Remember how strong the explosive tags can be: the 3rd hokage blow of the legs of both the 1st and 2nd hokages with just one explosive tag. When Asuma cut off his head we saw how weak Hidan is, it was a shame for him when they met up with akatsuki and Kakuzu told the story to the others

[Hunter]

The raw is out people.

[Sasuke_Akatsuki]

Spoiler:

Shika i will forever hate you

[naruto89]

Shika is officially the badass batman of naruto, that was an awesome ending just hope hidan stays dead which i doubt, but if he does return it better be in this fight but i guess if he does return that means he can be defeated by the rest of the team cos i guess shika has gotten his slight moment of revenge

[Soulnin]

Bout fukin time! Well I'm glad Shika did ok on his own, and what a scene!

You moderators might wanna move this to the 338 thread when someone makes it.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I think the emotional part is not besides the point. The person, who is mainly in charge of the plan, wanted to deal with Hidan alone in addition to having to use Kakuzu's blood in the process. Shikamaru is emotional, and the progress of his plan, such as his goal of trying to deal with Hidan alone and what he planned for Hidan at the end are all part of that emotional part. If Shikamaru had known about Kakashi's MS and if he was out of emotion, he might have asked Kakashi to warp Hidan, but that has never happened. So, by acting according to an emotionally set up plan, Kakashi was forced to act within the limits of that plan, not doing what he might have naturally done.

Well if you don't think it's beside the point then give me a reason to believe than trying to kill Hidan and Kakuzu with a Raikiri is emotional whereas trying the same thing with the MS isn't.
Before Kakuzu revealed himself to have 5 heart Kakashi was going to behead Hidan with a 2nd Raikiri and that would have been it. Shika taking Hidan by himself while Kakashi & co were taking care of Kakuzu was only the 3rd or 4th backup plan.
Hence Shika's plan didn't stop Kakashi in anyway to take care of both Kakuzu and Hidan and didn't force Kakashi to choose a jutsu instead of an other one better suited for the situation. And in this case Kakashi's decision not to use the MS at the beginning of the fight has nothing to do with Shika's emotion.

The point is Kakashi did avoid the attack. And, instead of trying to save the others, he might have concentrated to save himself in addition to fully concentrating his most powerful attack while also avoiding those attacks. And, with MS at the beginning, he wouldn't have felt the need to try to avoid those attacks.

No the point is that he didn't avoid it easily contrary to what you said.
There is only one example of Kakashi forced to stop a jutsu instead of avoiding it because of the group (and this example shows off Kakazu's jutsu power), all the other shows Kakashi barely avoiding the attacks or unable to stop them and being caught because of that. Which without Shika, Naruto and Yamato's help would have meant his death.

Also, just like Shika made sure Kakuzu was being idle, saving that chuunins also made sure that Kakashi was forced to stay limited in action.

Except your whole argument lies into Kakuzu being idle for a moment whereas Kakashi limited in action only happened once?

You can assume, and I can assume, the point is both and neither is accurate unless we observe them in a one on one fight. Wasn't this a part of the point that I was trying to make?

Not really no. You can invent stuff that aren't showed in the story to back up an otherwise unbacked point and I can invent stuff to counter this invented point and you can then invent something else until we aren't discussing Naruto anymore but a completly invented story.

And, regardless of your perception of the word fast, Kakashi didn't say too fast, and in his powerless condition, may not mean something to over exaggerate.

Right. Regardless of my perception of the word fast, Kakashi get caught. If he get caught, Kakazu's attack was too fast not to get caught, period.
Only then you can make up reason for Kakashi being unable to deal with Kakazu's tentacle speed but it doesn't change that at this point Kakuzu's attacks were too fast for Kakashi.


All in all the fact is that if you think the story was presenting Kakuzu and Kakashi as equaly powerful ninja with Kakashi being handicapped because of the situation (the situation because they outnumber and ambushed Kakuzu and Hidan) then we are not reading the same story.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well if you don't think it's beside the point then give me a reason to believe than trying to kill Hidan and Kakuzu with a Raikiri is emotional whereas trying the same thing with the MS isn't.
Before Kakuzu revealed himself to have 5 heart Kakashi was going to behead Hidan with a 2nd Raikiri and that would have been it. Shika taking Hidan by himself while Kakashi & co were taking care of Kakuzu was only the 3rd or 4th backup plan.
Hence Shika's plan didn't stop Kakashi in anyway to take care of both Kakuzu and Hidan and didn't force Kakashi to choose a jutsu instead of an other one better suited for the situation. And in this case Kakashi's decision not to use the MS at the beginning of the fight has nothing to do with Shika's emotion.

Kakashi collected the blood sample while he attacked Kakuzu. If he thought that Raikiri would have been enough to surely kill Kakuzu, he wouldn't have used that blood sample. You can counterargue that it would have been used in any case, then they would have used animal blood - or something similar. That means Kakashi acted on a plan to minimize the risk on others based on the plan that was set up, by the emotional planner of that mission. I will repeat what I said before, Kakashi would have wanted not to put others in risk by using MS, and that wouldn't have been the case when the others were not a part of that mission - in other words, a one on one fight.

Also, how would I know if Shikamaru's plan didn't stop Kakashi taking care of Hidan? Raikiri may not have been enough to kill Hidan, we all know that. And, considering the spoilers related to the future chapter, Hidan was not meant to be eliminated by Kakashi.

No the point is that he didn't avoid it easily contrary to what you said.
There is only one example of Kakashi forced to stop a jutsu instead of avoiding it because of the group (and this example shows off Kakazu's jutsu power), all the other shows Kakashi barely avoiding the attacks or unable to stop them and being caught because of that. Which without Shika, Naruto and Yamato's help would have meant his death.

In that fight yes, but the discussion was related to a possible one-on-one fight, and in that case, not a definite yes, at least based on what I have seen.

Except your whole argument lies into Kakuzu being idle for a moment whereas Kakashi limited in action only happened once?

I don't think my whole argument lies on that, it was just an example. And the example showed that, Kakuzu's techniques may not require him to continously be on the move, and that might easily give the opening to use MS on him.

Not really no. You can invent stuff that aren't showed in the story to back up an otherwise unbacked point and I can invent stuff to counter this invented point and you can then invent something else until we aren't discussing Naruto anymore but a completly invented story.

I always try to keep it within the boundaries of the storyline by avoiding Konohamaru vs. Jiraiya scenarios as much as possible. And, you might think that talking about the variables do not mean anything at all - "what you see is, what it is, what it can be, what it must be, and what it will be" kind -, for me, that variables and unsure points mean something that might require to re-analyze what you have seen, instead of taking it as is for all cases.

Right. Regardless of my perception of the word fast, Kakashi get caught. If he get caught, Kakazu's attack was too fast not to get caught, period.
Only then you can make up reason for Kakashi being unable to deal with Kakazu's tentacle speed but it doesn't change that at this point Kakuzu's attacks were too fast for Kakashi.

Kakuzu was also caught by Shikamaru, so, do I need to assume that Shika is extremely fast compared to Kakuzu? Absolutely not, Shika is definitely not too fast.

All in all the fact is that if you think the story was presenting Kakuzu and Kakashi as equaly powerful ninja with Kakashi being handicapped because of the situation (the situation because they outnumber and ambushed Kakuzu and Hidan) then we are not reading the same story.

No, I haven't represented them as equally powerful, cause, in a fair fight, with MS, that power unbalance, may not remove Kakashi's advantage. In other words, the typical strength advantage Kakuzu have may not be enough to overcome MS and the advantage it brings. If some of the guesses are right, it may be similar to Oro and Itachi when Itachi is 11 years old - or in the worst case for Kakashi, it might be like Shikamaru vs. Hidan. The point is, it is unknown. Admitting such a huge strength difference - as it was indicated previously - would automatically require admitting "almost no chance" for Kakashi to win, and I don't see it being the case.

[Hunter]

Hmm I know I'm a little late but I don't have much time to post more than one-liner posts during the week lately. Duty come first :P

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Kakashi collected the blood sample while he attacked Kakuzu. If he thought that Raikiri would have been enough to surely kill Kakuzu, he wouldn't have used that blood sample. You can counterargue that it would have been used in any case, then they would have used animal blood - or something similar. That means Kakashi acted on a plan to minimize the risk on others based on the plan that was set up, by the emotional planner of that mission. I will repeat what I said before, Kakashi would have wanted not to put others in risk by using MS, and that wouldn't have been the case when the others were not a part of that mission - in other words, a one on one fight.

What? You are saying now that Kakashi turned his back to Kakuzu, thought and said that Kakuzu should be dead but in fact knew that he wasn't?
Come on, you can do better than that.
Kakashi took some of Kakuzu's blood because that was part of the plan. It might not have been usefull, just like digging the hole and placing the explosive tags could have been useless depending of how the fight happened, but it was the plan and once Kakuzu was believed dead it's not like they had the time to seek someone's else blood anyway.

Kakashi tried to kill him with a Raikiri, thought he succeeded and tried then to take down Hidan with the same jutsu.
Kakashi trying to kill Kakazu with the MS and then trying it on Hidan if the first shot had succeeded make absolutely no difference if he was able to aim and warp his target easily.
The fact is that Kakashin, following Shika's plan, tried to kill them both.
Which completely contradict your point that it's "pretty obvious, he[Kakashi] could have used it[MS] with perfect success against Akatsuki members that were captured by Shikamaru's shadow jutsu." but didn't do it because of Shika's plan.
So again you have showed nothing implying that using the Raikiri instead of MS is related to any kind of emotion.

Also, how would I know if Shikamaru's plan didn't stop Kakashi taking care of Hidan? Raikiri may not have been enough to kill Hidan, we all know that. And, considering the spoilers related to the future chapter, Hidan was not meant to be eliminated by Kakashi.

Because Kakashi following Shika's plan tried to take care of Hidan. A Chidori isn't enough to kill Hidan -since from our current knowledge nothing is- but it's more than enough to behead him which enough to eliminate him.
Just like everybody on the team was meant to take some blood from Kakuzu if they had the chance, Hidan was meant to be eliminated by Kakashi if that was possible.

I don't think my whole argument lies on that, it was just an example. And the example showed that, Kakuzu's techniques may not require him to continously be on the move, and that might easily give the opening to use MS on him.

Your whole arguement lies on the use of the MS. The use of the MS instead of another jutsu lies on the fact that Kakuzu wouldn't be able to dodge. Kakuzu not able to dodge lies in Shika's presence.
It's not that Kakuzu is forced to move to attack, it's just that he can move and pretty fast at that. In this case using the MS becomes a liability because a miss would most probably mean Kakashi's death -especially without backup in fact.

I always try to keep it within the boundaries of the storyline by avoiding Konohamaru vs. Jiraiya scenarios as much as possible. And, you might think that talking about the variables do not mean anything at all - "what you see is, what it is, what it can be, what it must be, and what it will be" kind -, for me, that variables and unsure points mean something that might require to re-analyze what you have seen, instead of taking it as is for all cases.

I don't think variables do not mean anything at all, I think the boundaries you are using now are way over likeliness.
Things like "Kakashi knew that his Raikiri wouldn't kill Kakuzu" and "Kakashi wasn't meant to disable Hidan when he charged him with a Raikiri" etc. aren't within boundaries of the storyline, they are contradicting what character did, thought and said.

Kakuzu was also caught by Shikamaru, so, do I need to assume that Shika is extremely fast compared to Kakuzu? Absolutely not, Shika is definitely not too fast.

No you are to assume exactly what happened : that Shika tricked Kakuzu into thinking that his shadow knive was a regular kunai with an explosive tag.
Kakuzu didn't trick Kakashi, he didn't take him by surprise or from behind. They were facing each other, the tentacles came toward Kakashi and he get caught before he could move. At this point yeah you are to assume that Kakuzu's tentacles were extremely fast compared to Kakashi.