2008-03-25, 19:53 | Link #202 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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2008-03-25, 21:44 | Link #203 |
Sup
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Yeah, that's what I was getting at though.
The entire thing is extremely sensationalized. The guy filming the protest was being a self-righteous ass looking for trouble, and on top of it all, the protesters did not have a permit, so basically they were obstructing justice by disobeying police orders to stop causing a ruckus. |
2008-03-25, 23:15 | Link #205 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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Well since we have no vids on how PRC riot police treated the Tibeteans in Lahsa, I don't think it has any meaning on posting on how other nations treated a similar situation.
We can talk, making comments based on rumors but I don't think that will be a constructive either. |
2008-03-26, 00:36 | Link #206 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Aye, its basically very simple. When independent press are not allowed to stand ready - the credibility of the government version falls like a paralyzed falcon. It doesn't matter *who* or what kind the government is.
Until the PRC government *gets* that -- they can expect no change in the attitude of other nations (not that other nations aren't also guilty of trying to manipulate a message away from reality but most of them at least pretend to be embarrassed and whack a few scapegoat officials). In other news, the BBC English channel has been mysteriously unblocked into the PRC - no explanation, but then they never acknowledged blocking it in the first place (ever since they first started broadcasting in that direction a couple of decades ago).
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2008-03-26, 01:42 | Link #207 |
Prospective Cog
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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The issue of Tibet aside, I do not feel there exists that much public unrest in China to a degree that would force the government to either become more repressive or, in a best case scenario, begin systematically reforming the social sphere along a more liberal agenda. Perhaps this is much too broad a generalization, especially when considering that I am speaking for 1,400,000,000 people when I use the word 'China,' but I say that in an attempt to highlight several key points that get lost among discussions taking place about the PRC in liberalized Europe and the United States.
Namely, that despite what one thinks about China in comparison to other modern societies, the fact remains that at this moment in time, China is freer, more affluent and more developed than at any time in human history. This is a nation that was literally being carved into economic and cultural pieces in the nineteenth century by European imperial powers, then had to suffer the indignity of invasion and conquest by their Japanese rivals in the first half of the last century, only to have that followed by civil war, famine, and the untold millions lost in the economic programs initiated under the regime of Mao Zedong. Seen in this perspective, you could hardly blame the Chinese for feeling that things are looking up. As to the current situation with Tibet, I see this as the proverbial lost cause. Even by exploiting the focus that is directed at China by the media of the world as a consequence of the 2008 Beijing Olympics, what do the people of Tibet or even the Dali Lama hope to achieve? Worldwide condemnation is all well and good, except for the fact that it most certainly will not lead to action on the part of foreign nations. China is not the Soviet Union of the nineteen-eighties; it is not a multinational empire in decline, there is no groundswell of support for the adoption of western conceptions of nationhood and so on. And, beyond that factor, China is also not a country that can be bullied with. It is far too powerful economically and increasingly politically for nations, the United States included, to even contemplate interfering with their internal affairs of state. Lastly, this being an important point, I would like to add that all this Western condemnation of their country, coming as it does in the year in which they host the Olympics, does not exactly endear the Chinese citizenry to us. There is also an ever widening gap between what the Western world perceives the Beijing Olympics to be about and what the Chinese feel on the subject. This is not a question of politics, but about national pride - the pride of a people who no longer feel like the second-class citizens of the world and a testament to their progress and achievement. Perhaps there is a way to go for the development of China into a modern nation, or at least the Western concept of one, but I say let the Chinese have their moment in the sun without having us jeering at them. |
2008-03-26, 03:04 | Link #209 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Age: 66
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I don't equate the government of the PRC with its citizens anymore than I equate the actions of the US government with the average citizen. There are a lot of people working very hard to put on a "good Olympics". I agree that Tibet's more aggressive elements may have shot themselves in the foot (which is why the Lama is counseling them to stop and threatening resignation if they continue to use violence) by using the Olympics as a protest conduit. We've seen that the PRC government officials simply get more stubborn and intransigent (good lord, the name-calling and outright nonsense coming out of them and their mouthpieces over the last few days).
The *people* of China I want to applaud and cheer on.... the *government* I treat like all governments in the world... warily.
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2008-03-26, 04:03 | Link #210 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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Sorry but the world does not work that way. If CCP is going to maintain governance over Tibet then they should show the same responsibility to govern equally with equal representation not occupy and rule as if it was a colony. Give them some autonomy if they demand giving them a chance for them to develop their own industry by their own. The citizens of PRC should also show more interest towards the matter not as a ethnical problem but as a political problem. It's not them agaisnt us, it's citizens against the overshadowing possibility of a corrupt government. Having pride and being arrogant is two different things not to be confused. If there are such thing as "second-class" citizenry it is what is created within their own heads. A true citizen of the world should consider not what is good for them but what will benefit for all the people on this planet not to be conserned with petty differences such as race, creed and/or nation. |
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2008-03-26, 11:45 | Link #212 | |
Sup
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China has never been a nation-state. France is a nation-state. Germany is a nation-state. |
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2008-03-26, 12:13 | Link #213 |
Prospective Cog
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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I only point out that unless the citizenry of China becomes passionate about Tibet, which at this point, they are not, all of these protests are just spectacles that serve little real-world value. I am particularly disgusted with Western leaders such as Nicolas Sarkozy and Nancy Pelosi exploiting the Olympic games to drive down political points that they would never have the courage to speak about during a normal year in world affairs. And the thing is, I agree with most on this board that the government of the PRC has clearly treated Tibet unfairly for well over fifty years now, but the truth of the matter is that little can be done about this. No country or organization on earth that carries any weight, whether it be the United States, or the European Union, or god forbid, Russia and India, will ever risk conflict of any kind with China in a dispute over the interests of Tibet. If there were to be a change in the situation, it would have to develop as a consequence of internal developments within China itself, which as has been proven, take a long time.
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2008-03-26, 12:25 | Link #214 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2008-03-26, 13:12 | Link #215 | |
Toyosaki Aki
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These channels are what EVERYONE watches in China, if any citizenry are going to be passionate about Tibet, it's probably not in a favorable way.
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2008-03-26, 13:51 | Link #216 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Aye, I've not seen the "message" so forceful out of the PRC government and its controlled news stations in quite a while. Its also as "good" as anything some of the Western news agencies do --- assertions presented without evidence, no examination of *why* large numbers of people are at a flashpoint, considering everyone as part of the same piece (Dalai clique) rather than what it really is -- a collection of different organizaions with different ideas about how to deal with perceived injustice.
Kind of like conflating Al Quaeda with Iraqi nationalists with religious factions with Saddam to advance an agenda that has more to do with the flow control of oil. Some folks might want to review the Watts riots in Los Angeles in the 60s. The trigger points were different and there was the same lawless violence against essentially innocent people --- but the underlying causes were decades of oppression and injustice that built tempers to the flashpoint. The difference was there was an independent press allowed to examine all aspects of the events, so egg was evenly splashed on many faces.
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2008-03-26, 16:14 | Link #217 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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2008-03-26, 16:38 | Link #218 | |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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When it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck. China has 'national' minorities, but many nation states do, if they aren't multiethnical in the first place. (And China is ethnically more homogeneous than both France and Germany.) Still, China has an idea of "Chineseness" as overarching principle that goes beyond the ethnical differences. Exactly as a classical nation state should. This is one of the reasons this thread exists in the first place. The other is that many Tibetians beg to differ. The Tibet and Taiwan conflicts are really textbook examples of conflicts grounded in the idea of the nation state, eerie familiar to any historian. But I can't see any modern Western European state trying to uphold national borders against an independence movement at the price China is willing to pay (or let others pay), let alone threatening an already de facto independent state on historical arguments. So China takes the idea of nationhood more serious it seems. 'Independence' is a very theoretical concept in Europe anyway where significant powers have been transferred to the EU. That alone goes against the classical idea of the nation state where the nation is the very basis of all "statehood". So bottom line, the "Western" idea of the indivisible nation as the alpha and omega of state sovereignty is very popular in China (or Eastern Asia in general), and certainly more so than in large parts of "the West".
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Last edited by Slice of Life; 2008-03-26 at 16:51. |
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2008-03-26, 18:00 | Link #219 | |
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If you live your whole life in Beijing, chances are if you visit another city, you'll have no clue what they're saying. Cultural differences are very, very vast in China. The whole "nationalism" thing is mostly a worry of the urban youth and the old. Most people there are just worrying about getting along and making a buck. I guarantee you the average guy in China hates the villagers 100 miles away more than they care about a foreign nation. China might be 90% Han, but those 90% Han have very little in common. |
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2008-03-26, 18:29 | Link #220 | |
eyewitness
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