2012-11-01, 11:23 | Link #161 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
A mentally ill person is not an example that can be used here because his choices are limited by his condition. I speak of a normal person with the full range of options that would normally be available to a fully functioning individual of his age, open to him. Now if you want to talk about metaphysical things like the soul and free will in relation to it that's another thing entirely.... But for normal everyday usage, the biological mechanism suffices.
__________________
|
||
2012-11-01, 11:34 | Link #162 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
|
What about, you know, the Dominator SEEING these robots wreck all of the shit? Isn't that already a sufficient threat assessment to begin with?
On the contrary, if you are born diseased, you are blessed with means of dealing with said disease. |
2012-11-01, 11:38 | Link #163 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
We take it on faith that we have free will. We never try to prove it, and how would we even go about it anyway? |
|
2012-11-01, 11:43 | Link #164 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
Quote:
How "free" do you really think you are? Quote:
To take a truly mechanistic view of human behaviour is then to reject all possibility of free will. It's an illusion that prevents us from seeing ourselves as we truly are: machines in constant need of maintenance. |
|||
2012-11-01, 11:52 | Link #165 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
I don't see why it should be surprising that someone becomes something not what he can potnetially be if he were tempered with. Quote:
It is a complex operation. How fragile it is due to its complicity should have no bearing on how real its outcomes are or how real its process is. Do you say a stirring piece of music is not real because of how just one single instrument out of tune ruins the whole thing? Does its impact towards you lessen any in light of that? In the extreme, you know how easy it is to kill someone? Would you say then that life is not real too?
__________________
|
||
2012-11-01, 11:59 | Link #166 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't understand what you're trying to say here. You don't seem to be comparing like with like. |
|||
2012-11-02, 00:17 | Link #167 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
I'd like to expand on the matter, so here it goes (I posted this in Ep. 4 discussion but I guess it is more fitting here): Speaking on the connection between CC and Hue, based on what we've seen in these 4 episodes, I'd say that both can fluctuate wildly after certain stimulations. However, I also think that what really counts in PP's society is the base-level CC and Hue someone has. From what I gathered, the Hue is a representation of one's personality : the color itself doesn't matter (I'm guessing it just represents one's inclinations or ideals), however how clear or dark it is does. I think it's pretty obvious the more you get near pure white or pure black the more "good" or "evil" (or maybe "sane" or "insane") you are at the moment. However, I think this alone isn't enough to entail extreme measures such as lethal force. This is where the CC comes into play. The CC is a measure of somebody's likeness to commit a crime, and I think it could be pretty much compared to the "Law Vs Chaos" axys in D&D (while Hue would be the "Good vs Evil" one): if the system indeed works this way, latent criminals should be people with high base-level CCs and normal Hues, while people bound for treatment should be ones with a dark Hue and low-mid CC. The really dangerous types would of course be the ones who BOTH have a dark Hue and a high CC (Chaotic Evil), while I guess Inspectors have both a clear Hue and a low CC (Lawful Good). Despite being managed by a computer(Sibyl), this whole system is obviously not deterministic, as we've seen with the girl who reached a dark hue + high cc in a matter of minutes in episode one. That's why the ultimate decisions are entrusted to Inspectors and other Lawful Good people. The main contradictions, which will probably be discussed in later episodes, come to mind when questioning the criteria the system uses to determine people's alignment. Also who devised this system and what were their moral standards? Of course this is a dystopia so these kind of stuff is to be expected, but I'm pretty sure (since it's Urobuchi) sooner or later Psycho-Pass will tackle these themes. Now the only thing that isn't clear is how work affiliation is calculated. Maybe that's where the actual color comes into play? |
|
2012-11-02, 04:34 | Link #168 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
You are saying the ability to make choices for yourself is an illusion because it is fragile and can be tampered with without much difficulty right? I'm saying it is not something that cannot exist and that it is real. You manipulated someone in one instance but in a million other instances there are people making conscious decisions for themselves. Even if those are the minority (which isn't something I intend to debate over here since it's damn long) Those million cases are real. That's why I used life as an example. Lives are so easily snuffed out but they are no less real. IE you can't dismiss something as false just because it is fragile And your decision to make others behave that way? Where did that decision come from...did it not originate from yourself, your own desires in the end? Free will is not an impossibility or a lie or an illusion. And if you take it that free decision is something done without any external stimuli at all....well, I'd say that's not free will.....that's being brain dead. Thus that's not even a proper definition
__________________
|
|
2012-11-02, 07:22 | Link #169 | ||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
|
Quote:
Quote:
But I think you miss my point, which is that, no matter what we think (including what you've pointed out above), it's conditioned to a certain extent by the structures and institutions of the societies that we live in, by the values that are celebrated and the ones that are dismissed in each of them. On a related note, I don't think TinyRedLeaf is arguing that we don't have any choice at all, because it's all an illusion. Rather, we have less choice than we like to think, because our options are in some way constrained by structures and institutions that most of us aren't really aware of anymore, because they're such an integral part of our lives. I think it's important to be aware of these things, because they frame the way that we think. To extend further, such knowledge then allows us to accept difference (even if we debate and argue over it), because we'd realise that how others think and act may be framed by structures and institutions that differ from our own, that what might not be logical for us may actually be logical for them, even if we don't agree.
__________________
|
||
2012-11-02, 07:43 | Link #170 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Well, just my opinion but freewill isn't really deterministic but rather, probabilistic. So it seems to me that what the Dominators are measuring might actually be the probability wave-function of the target based on his psychological state and assigns it a value, that is the crime coefficient. And it takes no chances after it passes a certain threshold value, eliminating/incapacitating the threat, effectively removing the chances of a future incident. Instead of looking at the fact that the choices we make is a result of complex chemical reactions and whatnot, I think that it's more like...an electron cloud. It doesn't give us the exact location of the electron, but the probability of where it is. Applied to human behaviour, we have the possibility of making every single choice available to us based on the probability wave-function of our freewill, the so-called 'electron cloud'. When we make a choice, all other possible choices collapse into that one choice, and though we may know the likely outcome, we cannot predict what actually happens in the end. There is no one choice, but a more likely choice. Someone who might be likely to do something in a certain way is also likely to do something unexpected and collapse into the choice with lower probability. Our choices can be predicted, but predicted to what extent? We can only predict the probability wave-function of our actions, not the actions themselves; as with the uncertainty principle - the more precise we get to finding the location of an election, the less precise we get at finding it's momentum. No matter what happens or what situation a human being is in, you can't predict with certainty the results of his free will. What the computer predicts to the human's yes/no answers might just be it detecting the choice before the action occurs, however, that choice might have already been made. |
|
2012-11-02, 22:50 | Link #171 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
Firstly, what is "life"? Secondly, what is the "mind"? Both questions are far from trivial. As karice67 said, they may seem like common sense, but that's only because we've become so oblivious to the "structures" in which life and mind exists that we no longer consciously think about the fundamental miracle that makes possible the existence of both life and mind. Something cropped up. I'll expand on the points later. I'll just say that the philosophical discussion on "life" is not an area that I've delved much into. The question of "mind", on the other hand, I've explored quite a bit more, as it is closely related to the issue of whether "free will" is possible. |
|
2012-11-02, 23:28 | Link #172 |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
|
Whatever the brain does. Consciousness is a process. Consciousness is self-refential information processing. Definition of consciousness is the easy part. Memory, perception etc. are the hard parts.
Btw, has "free will" even been defined in the course of this thread? I'll go look for it now. I'm skeptical, though. But I'm with Dennett when it comes to the illusion of free will and punishing people: Even if people would not ultimately (ie. "philosophically") be responsible for their actions, we punish them because this has proven to be a succesful strategy in the past to make people behave in an acceptable way. Holding people responsible only works if people have been informed that they're being held responsible and respond to this by controlling their behaviour to avoid punishment. People have the right to come toghether to improve their condition by creating rules and enforcing them. It's an argument from utility and, as per Dennett, we would be worse off if we did not do so. All this is feels like philosophical gibberish thusfar. Has there been any discussion about my real life example: James Fallon the neuroscientist who has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy? This is evidence that "nurture" does matter. Flagging "latent criminals" should encourage the state to create optimal conditions for these individuals to overcome their genetic vulnerabilities.
__________________
|
2012-11-03, 00:28 | Link #173 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
In what sense, therefore, is the "mind" real? Or is it perhaps the "ghost in the machine"? Which is to say, is the mind merely a by-product of bodily functions, or is it a physical entity in its own right? Quote:
Quote:
Philosophically, that isn't different from what Sam Harris argues for. It's just that his view of "nurture" is more mechanistic than what we normally regard as "nurture". |
|||
2012-11-03, 00:55 | Link #174 | |||||
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how well versed you are in the philosophy of the mind, but I can say that Descartes set philosophy of the mind back many... centuries. My thoughts are somewhat in line with those of Douglas Hofstadter. Quote:
Quote:
So what my point is? I do tend to side with Triple_R when it comes to the moral implications of this system. Currently, I'm highly suspicious of this society and especially of the state within. Not that the science behind this system is wrong or misguided, per se. Rather, the role of the state in this society does invite some obvious skepticism.
__________________
Last edited by zarqu; 2012-11-03 at 01:21. |
|||||
2012-11-03, 01:24 | Link #175 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Right, and that something is what you would call a "process". Is the "process" the "mind"? My feeling is, no. I think it's just a part of what we call the "mind". Meaning to say, we haven't yet begun to fully describe what the "mind" actually is, and are at best able to postulate its "existence" based on the parts of it that suggest it exists.
Or, it may as well not even exist at all. It's just a philosophical concept that we use to overlay the set of biological processes that add up to what we call the "mind". Hence, in that sense, it's possible to say that the "mind" is not real. It's just an a posteriori figment of our imagination. This sort of echoes the parable about the three blind mind trying to figure out what an elephant is. Each could describe a part of the elephant — its tusk, its legs and its trunk — but, yet, at the same time, none of the them could be said to know what the elephant actually is. Something exists, true, but it's not what each blind man thinks it is. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2012-11-03, 01:47 | Link #176 | ||||
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
edit: Oh. Descartes does deserve the harshest treatment possible. He is pretty much responsible for the misleading language of "mind and body" when it comes to philosophy of mind and western thought in general.
__________________
Last edited by zarqu; 2012-11-03 at 02:06. |
||||
2012-11-03, 14:20 | Link #178 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
|
The easiest assumption is that they found out through a gradual calibration process. Like 99% of people who had X reading would perform some kind of crime at some point in their lives. Those with higher CC readings would commit either more crimes or more severe crimes. Eventually the calibration went thus that the readings become close to 100% accurate.
|
2012-11-04, 11:47 | Link #179 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
|
Quote:
Second....yeah, life in its entirety is far more complex than mind. But I raised it anyway because it's still a transient, fragile thing easily snuffed out nonetheless, which seems to be the main drive of your stand on the illusion of free will. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-11-04 at 11:59. |
||
2012-11-05, 18:09 | Link #180 | ||||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
I did not give a statement about what I think is the "mind", and was merely presenting what others have said, which is that the "mind" is an illusion. zarqu addressed the question head on and gave a clear, well-thought-out answer: the "mind" is what the brain does (and clarified that he thinks of it as "consciousness" rather than the "mind"). We can measure some of the processes that make up the "mind", but a single process out of many does not make the "mind". It is made up of many different neurological processes, and we are conscious of only some of them. In effect, the "mind" as we classically know it does not exist. It does not have an independent existence — kill the body, and the mind dies with it. It is not something we can know in its entirety, much less something we can objectively measure, the way we can measure our bodies. In this sense, the "mind" is not real. It has nothing to do with whether or not the "mind" is fragile, which was not what I claimed — that's merely a misunderstanding on your part. Quote:
EDIT: I'll push the discussion one step further. I'm deeply concerned about the reality of the "mind" because clearly, without it, it's meaningless to talk about "free will". Our ability to make conscious decisions based on imbibed values is clearly dependent on our mental health. Quote:
Quote:
What are the implications of assuming that "free will" exists, in this case? Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2012-11-05 at 18:40. |
||||
|
|