2010-01-04, 19:54 | Link #5001 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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One possible problem, what happens with "potential people-piece"?. If we define with a "x" these people, it isnīt impossible to convert "x" to "0", the inverse transform. Well, maybe one example is Erika being denied (well, one could say "no, in the best is a residue"). Well, Iīm just trying to kill Shakannon theory XD. Making sure I donīt have a huge mistake: Iīm talking about people-piece as the people that is in the gameboard, at the non-meta plane, the "reality" (the island). Last edited by artirian; 2010-01-04 at 20:34. Reason: Some mistakes at writing XD. |
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2010-01-04, 20:24 | Link #5002 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-01-04, 20:26 | Link #5003 | |||
Purupurupiko-Man
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: My beloved hometown, the mackerel river running through it
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2010-01-04, 20:28 | Link #5004 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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Bern doesn't know the answer either, so she doesn't have access to that red. Considering the way she was constructing her theory (via Erika), she probably didn't know that Natsuhi was innocent, either.
It looks like only the GM has access to the full set of red, and other witches can only use red that they know (humans are further restricted to "provable" red). |
2010-01-04, 20:49 | Link #5005 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Spoiler for EP 6 major:
Besides Bern is a shrew person - she said she wanted to win above all costs. Natsuhi was the most suspicious, so she zero'd in on her for an easy win. |
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2010-01-04, 21:00 | Link #5006 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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I gave an explanation for this already, Battler doesn't have to come kill them by his hand, the servants are under his control, all of them, and he has other accomplices as well. He simply had one person fake death earlier (anyone is fine, I am going with Kanon), and come kill the three later. That doesn't change the fact that Battler is the culprit, it simply means he wasn't directly responsible for the murder there. But yeah, I feel like I wasted too much time on this already. This theory, while it still stands tall for now, is almost certainly a red herring because ryuukishi07 used it already. I was trying to look at things Battler's way but screw that now. I got annoyed because I was accused of thinking like Erika (my most hated character) but it seems I am not that different from her after all. Oh well. This battler culprit theory is just something I thought of as one of the possibilities, and it holds its own, I will defend it until someone clearly refutes it without relying on their emotions. But my initial aim was to think like Battler and figure out why he called himself the culprit...didn't go too far it seems -_- and my aim of framing other characters (apart from shkanon, Battler and Jessica, whom I did yesterday) as the culprit reached a complete standstill as well. Sigh, sorry about that Mr. Archer and Kaiba, I got a bit haughty apparently Quote:
The GameMaster has the gold truth. Oh, here's a theory, The witches see the story as they fit, from their perspective. They will then try to announce what they believe as true in red, it just so happens that most of the time they are correct but they needn't always be. In other words, until they speak it out in red, they themselves don't know for sure that its the truth. Only the Gamemaster knows that their truth is absolute and unfalliable, which has the color of GOLD! That would explain why Bern didn't shoot down Battler but it still doesn't explain why Battler could (or would) call himself Culprit and why he didn't use the red he got from Virgilia to demolish Erika's theory. @Marion, well, she could have understood the truth at the end of Game 6 only. I mean, having the existence of your double denied would be like a wakeup call/cold water splash thrown at her |
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2010-01-04, 21:15 | Link #5007 |
CONTRACTS
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Hey, Chii, I know it's totally off-topic but where is your AV from?
Also - Pony Theory's starting to look pretty good, no? Furthermore, we should really have a wiki for theories, since it doesn't look like they're part of the normal umineko wiki. |
2010-01-04, 21:23 | Link #5009 | ||
Senior Member
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Let me shoot it down with the fact that in Japanese it is not strange to use what we regard as 'third person' to refer to somebody. For a native speaker she is just being polite, not hinting at another Battler. Quote:
Witches don't strive to defeat an opponent with simple logic (that is what the human side does), they wish to prolong the game to keep it interesting. Just to add that as long as we don't know another reason for Bern and Lambda to compete in this game it is simply enjoyment. Another fact heavily goes against your theory. Spoiler for Episode 6:
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2010-01-04, 21:24 | Link #5010 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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I think most people here knew that Natsuhi hadn't met Beatrice and probably deduced that she was alone as well... so that's probably the level of truth Bern has access to, whatever stuff she manages to figure out. Well, it's just a theory, but it's obvious that Bern doesn't have the full complement of red at her disposal. For all I know, Bern could be making a few theories and attempting to mumble them in red until one comes out properly
It's also possible that the process is automatic, so if Bern pieces together a theory that has some basis and which happens to be true, she automatically knows that she can use red for it. Two ideas for why Battler offered the "I did it" theory instead of crushing Erika's: 1. He was going easy on her. Two completely different ideas on the motive: 1a. Battler doesn't want the truth to become known, because now he's on the witch side. Offering an alternative theory makes the game a draw. If he crushed Erika's theory with the red, she'd have to come up with something from scratch, which might be the "real truth". The real truth can't be denied by any red, so if Erika hit upon that, it would be completely Battler's loss. 1b. Battler does want the truth to become known, but Erika has to find it for herself. Battler knows that if he crushes Erika right here, she might be destroyed and thus become unable to find it. 2. He's incompetent. Red truth, yeah? He just forgot that now that he'd become a "witch", he was able to use the red that he was unable to use previously. Personally, I don't find it terribly likely that Battler would offer the true solution as his alternative theory, for the same reason that Beatrice never went "Battler, your blue text is all wrong because (insert the real solution here)". Maybe if he has a death wish, but that really wastes his great resurrection scene. |
2010-01-04, 21:28 | Link #5012 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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Preventing his family from being molested by that intellectual rapist? Certainly a noble cause!
I think a fair part of it is probably because he sees revealing the true culprit as the final nail in Beato's coffin, and at this point he'll have none of that. |
2010-01-04, 21:31 | Link #5013 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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<_< I wonder if I should even bother posting again if people are just ignoring what I say, only to say something I already said before. It is... quite frustrating really.
Battler want to end the game with Beato. For Ep5, he had to keep the darkness of the witch. For that, he needed to make another truth, not completely destroy Erika's theory. If you can't trust the red about Battler not being the culprit, then you clearly hate the author. Good luck trying to solve the mystery.
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2010-01-04, 21:35 | Link #5014 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I guess that means we can't put faith in Battler to reveal the murderer.. |
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2010-01-04, 21:38 | Link #5015 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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That's possible.
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2010-01-04, 21:43 | Link #5016 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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Spoiler for EP 6:
Anyway, I am taking every event favorably for Shkanon, Battler and Jessica culprit theories, if they can be interpreted as favorable to all three, its more or less useless. @k//eternal: I am going with the Battler incompetent theory. Fucker got too absorbed in Beato's charm. Its still shady, since Battler had so far always been like "I will kill you the moment I figure out your identity, you bitch" and yet he completely ignores that and even defends the illusion of the witch (i.e, hides the culprit, a crime on its own lol). It still supports Battler-culprit theory and both of the sassy-nee-chans as Beatrice theory (i.e, Jessica or Sayo as Beato; Battler is too much into titties to punch them, specially if there were juicy tidbits of emotional moments in the "truth" lol. Either way, excepting Jessitrice, the other two have either been used or so strongly hinted that they are almost certainly red herrings. @Megaolix: Objection! (insert Battler's pointed finger image although I look more like George) Don't pass judgment on how I see ryuukishi07 based on how I interpret his story. It is precisely because he went to the trouble of proving that there are two battlers that the red can't be trusted, its not because I hate him, its because I think he is a freaking genius and I wouldn't put it past him. Don't you tell me I hate the author here, I haven't read many authors who can include references to all sorts of stuff (from Chinese history to western occultism to Buddhist ideals applied to childish fantasies to logical paradoxes to Agatha Christie to Ronald Knox to what no really) and I haven't read any other "literary" author describe them without making a complete mess, forget using them in a puzzle. In short, I freaking love the guy. If my Japanese was more competent, I would move to Japan just to be his apprentice or something. |
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2010-01-04, 21:48 | Link #5017 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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What would be a really cool twist ending would be if one of the dead pieces in EP7 (maybe even Battler himself) becomes a new Meta-being and vows to expose the criminal, then proceeds to do so in EP8, killing Meta-Battler and his new Beato in the process.
Tragic, but really cool. |
2010-01-04, 22:07 | Link #5018 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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Your story could be something like, Battler exposed the culprit but fell in love with her, the culprit already died but Battler has kept her alive inside his head. After a while, his wish to go back and live his life finds way through to his closed heart and thus Battler returns to the real world (i.e, Metaworld Battler and Beato perish) I guess. I don't care if the ending is happy or cruel, I am fine with it if ryuukishi07 lets every single one of them live (Maria is dead though, poor little witch already has her bones confirmed) or if he has even their surviving relatives suffer a worse fate than Ange and Eva did in fictional future (the future bit, like the metaworld, is just thought up by the survivors, Battler is considering what would happen to Ange, she didn't really come to him in 1986). I want to be in awe over a story well-told and a puzzle well-created. I don't want all the questions answered but I do want a clear solution to the most burning questions. |
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2010-01-04, 22:11 | Link #5019 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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The meta-world is the carried plot element from Higurashi, though. Given that the games are numbered as part of the same series, I doubt it'll be refuted (although I think in the end it will be disconnected from the real world, which may be the same thing depending on your viewpoint).
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2010-01-04, 22:14 | Link #5020 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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