2010-07-25, 09:11 | Link #14561 | |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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In short there are some restrictions if you want it to be good and well-accepted, but you can take some liberties. EDIT: Incidentally, if EP3-6 are all forgeries by Hachijo as we're told, then the truth is reachable from EP1 and EP2 alone, because she figured it out and penned the rest. Crazy. Or maybe she's wrong and we all got mega trolled. |
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2010-07-25, 11:06 | Link #14562 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
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Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard!
I consider every chapter (from the last 'fragment crack animation' to the next) an interpretation. I have thought of each episode as having several interpretations and that they are badly pasted togethor and so lacking context and any proper chronicalisation. Now personally, I don't like these new Knox rules because Battler breaks several of them, but this one rule has stuck in my head. |
2010-07-25, 11:15 | Link #14563 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I have a problem with EP5.
Why Battler was blocked by Knox's 2nd!! It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique! If you would show that Kinzo has died with the red truth, then I demand that you display proof of a human's truth which could be used to make that point...! and forced to use red ? I mean..."Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me(Battler)!! |
2010-07-25, 12:16 | Link #14564 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The most common interpretation is that it was a specific rule of the trial: "humans cannot use red truths in this trial". If Virgilia used that red instead it should have worked (barring from Dlanor sealing the red) in fact Battler soon after wants Virgilia to repeat the red he just told but Virgilia for some reasons made herself unavailable at that point.
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2010-07-25, 12:25 | Link #14565 |
Trust the red.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
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Rather than making herself unavailable, I was under the impression that Bern removed all possibilities of defeat by silencing/removing everyone from the court that could have made a statement that would overturn Erika's truth.
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2010-07-25, 12:59 | Link #14566 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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@Kylon99:
If you're talking about the love trial in EP6, then there are plenty of reasons that we can guess at that explain the change. We don't need proof as to what the specific change is, just enough clues to lead us on the right track. For example, let's say that the love trial represents the fake murders. If so, then Beatrice, Shannon, Kanon, Battler, Jessica, and George are likely the brains of the operation. We then see them going around to all of the "victims" and discussing love with them, which might represent them recruiting people to play the victim part in the drama. If Shkanontrice is true, this turn of events would hardly be possible without Sayo's secret getting out. Actually, since there's a good chance that Sayo was connected to the themed murders in previous games, the very fact that the siblings are helping out with fake murders seems to hint that Sayo did tell them something that she didn't in previous games. The cause for this confession is a bit harder to place. Personally, I think it started after Erika bullied Maria about magic. Shannon was clearly shaken up by it, and the siblings may have discussed the matter further when they left the room (and it might have been easy for some of them, particularly Battler, to connect Shannon with the cup magic trick once they knew it existed). In this case, a secret—a lie—is being kept between Battler, Jessica, George, and Sayo. So, as long as that secret goes unexposed, their scenes can be falsified at will.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-07-25 at 13:16. |
2010-07-25, 14:09 | Link #14567 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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George Jessica Shannon Kanon Kumasawa Nanjo Genji Rudolf That leaves Krauss and Hideyoshi. Gouda probably already knows. Basically in both rooms there is only one person who, although has a gun and is in control, can be told about the fakery. So there's a high probability people wouldn't have stayed trapped in the room for long. And if they were told during the episode anyways then basically they were just waiting for Erika to leave. (As for some of them, its the best opportunity to carry out their own little schemes... 8) ) |
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2010-07-25, 14:13 | Link #14568 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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The only reason you have Rudolf on that list is because he thinks he's going to die soon right? Sorry that's not enough for me.
Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE!!
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2010-07-25, 14:26 | Link #14569 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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So, while Rudolf knows he's going to 'die' in EP1, it may not apply to all episodes. (It's not like he's psychic or something.) But, in all episodes he should at least know the servants are scheming something. It depends on how much he was told. I just think he'd have to have been told a bit more before he'd go through with such an apology to get Battler back. None of the siblings struck me as someone who would go through such lengths, even to get a wayward son back.. |
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2010-07-25, 14:39 | Link #14570 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-25 at 14:55. |
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2010-07-25, 15:09 | Link #14571 | |||
Classic Yandere
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
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2010-07-25, 15:13 | Link #14572 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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However, most other detective novels usually have only one incident of murder, except for And Then There Were None. In that case everyone was murdered, including the doctor (although he was still left alive until he was no longer needed) and the detective didn't show up until the end... 8) ... EDIT: And then he supposedly didn't even solve it either, right? It was the confession from the killer... Well, either way, it goes to show that Battler is special. (And Nanjo... less special. ) However, I would think that if Ryukishi had the detective survive long series of murders, that he'd need to come up with something more than just, 'He's the detective.' At least on the gameboard the idea of 'the detective' is not known to the pieces... there has to be some kind of other logic at work on that level... I think the clues of his sin from 6 years ago have something to do with that logic. |
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2010-07-25, 16:18 | Link #14573 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Well, I think that can be explained by saying that, whoever Beatrice's "host" is had them spare Battler. She seems to be the owner of the gold, and based on what we saw on EP4, she also seems to manage a fuck-ton of money. So, whoever it is working with her or having her do these things, may have complied to the request from her to spare Battler. This was quite likely agreed before October 4th, since "Beatrice" must have written those letters before that day. So, she could already tell Battler would survive until the end. There's also the possibility she committed all the crimes herself, and allowed Battler to survive until the end.
As a result, since he was the detective in the two stories she wrote, the ones who made the forgeries may have followed this pattern as well. At the very least, until EP4, Hachijō did.
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2010-07-25, 23:50 | Link #14574 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 35
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So, let's return to the topic of forgeries. Once again, if Hachijou was able to write ep3-6 stories, she was able to reach Beato's truth by ep1 and ep2.
The most strange thing about that is 07151129. Even now we still don't have any convincing theories regarding that, but Hachijou supposedly knew the meaning behind that number just from the original message bottles. |
2010-07-26, 00:27 | Link #14575 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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I have some thoughts after re-reading EP1 with foreshadowing in mind. Giving credit where credit is due, this idea came (aside from my boredom with summer drudgery) almost directly off of Kylon99's pointing out of a scene where Nappi suggests that Shannon is dressing up as Beato and Rudolf goes to "reapply his makeup". So...here's a long list of possibly mundane observations. Some of them have probably been pointed out in the past, but it might be useful to somebody, I dunno : P.
Spoiler for long:
This doesn't really suggest any motives, and I still can't figure out Kanon in general , but these are just a few things that really caught me as I was reading. I wasn't expecting to find this many, at least.
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2010-07-26, 00:36 | Link #14576 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 35
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As far as I understand, this marked rose (as well as its dissapearance) is a given 'rule' of every game and therefore it's vital for the progression of the game. |
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2010-07-26, 00:42 | Link #14577 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 35
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However we can take two scenes with 'Kumasawa watching from the shadows' as a hint regarding the other possible person who knew about the charm. |
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2010-07-26, 00:43 | Link #14578 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
you also noticed a couple of things I missed. Thanks for the pictures. Quote:
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2010-07-26, 00:46 | Link #14579 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
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I made an explanation before about the umbrella question scene, too lazy to retype it but basically it rules out everyone but the servants as people who could have delivered the umbrella to Maria. Battler was the alibi for the children, while Natsuhi was the alibi for the adults I believe. Although Natsuhi is how you say 'nuts; she's been proven to be innocent thanks to Battler's red and we could trust her about the location of the adults. Only the servants and Nanjo could have delivered that letter and the umbrella.
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2010-07-26, 01:50 | Link #14580 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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I might be wrong but I think like 90% of Beato's trick involves tricking us in relation to the time-scale of events.
For Maria's umbrella and the letter she NEVER claimed she got it from Beatrice in the time between when Rosa hit her and the time Rosa + Battler and cie went to find her (referring to arc 1 scenario only, but I could make similar arguments about the others). Battler actually at first thought she was smart enough to carry an umbrella with her, meaning he wouldn't (for a reason or another) have noticed if she it had beforehand. The letter is even easier to conceal. As thus... everyone's alibies are reset. Also in your argument, Natsuhi wasn't everyone's alibi, she left the conference early on. And Rosa was both the last to be seen near Maria and (tho Battler found her first) the first to be seen again near the rose garden. ... thinking of it it's interesting to think that, supposedly, Rosa was sleeping in the parlor while the meeting supposedly took place. |
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