[Manga] Chapter 446 Discussion

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Even if we forget what Nagato tried to accomplish before his Pain persona, what did he truly accomplish in favor of his goal since then?

Killing Hanzo and the former Amegakure, thus ending the civil war in the Rain country. Founding Akatsuki and collecting 7 bijuu.

I mean what did he gain by blasting Konoha?

His reason for doing that was to make them experience pain. The idea is that Konoha will never understand the pain they caused to the smaller surrounding countries like the Rain Country until they experience that type of destruction themselves. That is Pain's philosophy - he believes that by experiencing true pain, the world will grow up.

It's impressive of course, I don't think anyone denied Nagato was unbelievably powerful, but it's not going to advance his goal in the slightest

Destroying Konoha is Nagato's form of justice. It doesn't directly serve his goal of creating a more powerful weapon, but it is still in line with his goal of making people experience pain. And since Konoha has been the major threat to Akatsuki in undermining their plans, any counterattack, that hinders Konoha, would indirectly serve Akatsuki's goals.

You claim that Nagato being manipulated by Madara is a moot point? That's rather funny though not surprising I must admit. Of course it's kind of hard to find an accomplishment in the fact he takes orders from someone who most probably seaks a diametrically opposed goal whereas Nagato's is doomed to fail.

I don't know why you say that Madara's goal is diametrically opposed to Nagato's. Do we even know enough about Madara's full plan to be able to say that? And even if it is opposed, there is the question of which person is being manipulated. Going back to the Sasuke-Orochimaru relationship, they each had their own goals - Orochimaru wanted to possess an Uchiha body and Sasuke wanted to attain enough power to defeat Itachi. We could not say for sure who was being used by whom until Sasuke and Orochimaru finally came into conflict with each other. So, yes, the point about Pain being used by Madara has moot written all over it.

[Hunter]

Do you really need to cut in little bits and truncate the posts you answer to? It gets barely understandable. I already adressed both the instances you mention in your first sentences and the part you wrote about Nagato's philosophy is completely beside my point, I asked you how did the destruction of Konoha advance his plan not the philosophical reason behind the act. At least there is some sense in your argument of hindering Konoha even if we both now it's not the real reason but even for that I'm not sure it worked.

I don't know why you say that Madara's goal is diametrically opposed to Nagato's. Do we even know enough about Madara's full plan to be able to say that? And even if it is opposed, there is the question of which person is being manipulated. Going back to the Sasuke-Orochimaru relationship, they each had their own goals - Orochimaru wanted to possess an Uchiha body and Sasuke wanted to attain enough power to defeat Itachi. We could not say for sure who was being used by whom until Sasuke and Orochimaru finally came into conflict with each other. So, yes, the point about Pain being used by Madara has moot written all over it.

Because Madara is yet to have shown any interest in peace, contrary to, say, power and revenge? It's true we don't know his end game but lasting peace doesn't seem to be the least of his worry. And no there is no real question about who is being manipulated between Nagato and Madara. Kishimoto could pull out a new villain manipulating them both though.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Because Madara is yet to have shown any interest in peace, contrary to, say, power and revenge? It's true we don't know his end game but lasting peace doesn't seem to be the least of his worry. And no there is no real question about who is being manipulated between Nagato and Madara. Kishimoto could pull out a new villain manipulating them both though.

In human history it seems that real peace can be achieved by absolute power, that is by total control of people. So if Madara wants to be the absolute ruler of the world that would mean peace, and if he is really immortal that means eternal peace

I can see a bit of truth in Nagato's way of thinking, in human history there needed to be some very bloody events to teach people about the value of peace, so that they can give up on some matters in order to maintain peace. Probably it's the reason why politicians think it's important to teach people about the holocaust in schools, because the new generations have never experienced wars so they are beginning to act more agressively towards other nations and religions. In Japan the older generations have experienced nuclear attacks and a lost war, so maybe Kishi did experience that the new generations are more towards violent solutions than the old ones, because they always lived in the post-war peace and japanese economic prosperity. The rich new generations in countries like the USA or Japan would vote for a war in small and poor countries instead of living even a bit less expensive lives. That is similar to what Nagato says, that the peace and prosperity of the big countries is built on the suffering and exploitation of the small and poor countries. Of course reality is far more complicated than this, but people like Bin Laden probably think that this is the essence of how the world works.