Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[~Yami~]

war is over
casualties :
Tomogara = RIP Sabrac, Fecor, and Decarabia (and also the rest of Bal Masque's guard)
Flame Haze = RIP Samuel Demantius and Centerhill (oh damn!!! I just started to love both of this strong men!!!! they will be missed)

I never imagine Sydonay is very strong.... He can become a chimera and then Hydra??? his battle in previous season doesn't really show off his true strength then...
Margery is back... now! our Flame Haze trio from first season and second season are completed!!! yeah!!

at last, Flame Haze now find their next battle... so the power of existence's flow might be unbalanced?? I believe Yuji already has solutions but he doesn't manage to announce it.... (maybe because of several reasons)

Chiara is cute... xD
and the next war, there will be three badass Flame Haze from Gods of Earth... looking forward to that

someone can explain Flame Haze's tactics??? sounds too complicated for me

[Key Board]

Sydonay is broken

Shana cut his body in half and that didn't even faze him a bit

[Ec1ge]

A decent 9/10

As a non-novel reader (due to me living in the US and not having access to all the novels), it saddens me that J.C. couldn't include why Samuel was forced into becoming a Flame Haze while he was dying [or even how he died in the first place "twice"] or even the backstories behind (in the previous episode) Sabrac's.

Other than that, it was nice to see the Flame Hazes escape, one of the Four Gods of Earth make a noble sacrifice , Sydonay come back, Margery come back, the Tomogara's POV on the war, and even all the action in this episode.

One decent episode despite the fact that it left me wondering about the backstories about a good majority of characters and the full fight between CenterHill and Sydonay.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Yeah they really drove that point home when they started massacring the retreating flame hazes like cattle.



More powerful than even alastor apparently. Nothing can harm him.



Even without Sydonay the other Crimson Denizens/lords demonstrated that they were more than capable of easily bringing down the other flame hazes. That lion easily brought down the Stone Golem with a single shout and Sabracc just went, "oh a stone golem" and then proceded to pwn him as well.

I'm sorry but to it's just so mind boggling.

It's like "OMG it's one of the Monster Gods!"

Other crimson Denizen, "Oh...it's him...well let's fight"

5 seconds later Flame Haze is dead and the Denizen hasn't even broken a sweat and has no scratches on him.

Sydonay is not a mere Tomogara he's.....

Saying what he is is a spoiler that doesn't belong here. Suffice to say he isn't even a normal Lord.

Talking about him like you do other normal named characters is hugely inaccurate

No Alastor outclasses everything barring the Snake by a stupidly huge margin.


When I said the "point", I meant it from Snake's POV. What the Tomogara do to the Flame Hazes he really doesn't give two fucks. After all, his aim is to fulfil the Tomogaras' wish of a new world.

[ReverseReasoning]

I rate this episode a solid 10 out of 10. Simply because:

The plot was ongoing, engaging and literally heart stopping. The last time I felt this was their fight with Sabrac on the second season. It just reminds me that Shana is still one of my favorite Anime, the graphics and the fight scenes were so good and we finally got real action (which I felt was lacking on the past episodes)

I'm seriously considering Sydonay as a replacement for Sabrac. He finally stepped it up and showed that he truly deserved being the General. Hecate is truly lucky. Every character just improved, (especially Shana). Hoping for this quality episodes in the near weeks.

P.S.: Dear JC Staff, kill Rebecca and Khamsin already, they have bored me way too much and are annoying me on their weird and unexpected powerups. Thank you very much.

[Senshigeia]

Aww, I kind of like Khamsin and Rebecca... But anyway, despite what I read throughout the internet, Shana has always been one of my favourite series, but now it is blowing me away! Great character development, great plot, action, healthy romance...

I also pity, has a non novel reader, not knowing the back stories of some characters, like Margery, Wilhelmina, lil' Shana but specially Mathilde, Samuel, Sabrac and even Khamsin and Rebecca.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Sydonay is not a mere Tomogara he's.....

Saying what he is is a spoiler that doesn't belong here. Suffice to say he isn't even a normal Lord.

Talking about him like you do other normal named characters is hugely inaccurate

Never mind the fact he's not the only one but I'll just leave it at that. I would prefer the flame hazes to at least make the other guys sweat.

No Alastor outclasses everything barring the Snake by a stupidly huge margin.

Too bad Shana's attacks had zero effect on him and bringing Alastor into the field isn't something that can be done all the time.

When I said the "point", I meant it from Snake's POV. What the Tomogara do to the Flame Hazes he really doesn't give two fucks. After all, his aim is to fulfil the Tomogaras' wish of a new world.

And it was Yuji who broke their morale and said they don't have to fight anymore yet he's not doing anything to at least stem them back. I mean he does know that he's putting Shana in more danger no?

[alvinkhorfire]

Originally Posted by SkyFlames

IMO this works as a lesson to J.C. They left a 3 years gap between season two and three, which made them lose a lot of followers.

@SkyFlames
I agree with your point that J. C. Staff's decision has caused Shakugan no SHANA to lose its popularity. Then again, by putting a 3 years gap between Season 2 and 3, they can make the ending of the anime to coincide with the ending of the novel.

I am sure that we all remember the unnecessary fillers, such as the Konoe Fumina arc in Season 2. One reason for animating such fillers is that they were uncertain how the story would end at that time. By delaying Season 3 till now, J. C. Staff has a clear idea how the story ends. Hence, less fillers exist in Season 3, which is then more faithful to the novels. Again, this is my personal opinion, so correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

Sydonay is an unusual case, but they did hurt him, he just healed himself. It's never been clear just what limits he has to his recovery ability.

Okay, Sydonay morphed into 4-headed hydra. His 3 hydra head being destroyed by Shana's Crimson Red spell has no tangible effect on him. The same effect is shown with him losing his lower half of body through Shana's Blazing Flame much eariler.

[taichi-kun]

I thought chiara was fighting against Mammon, is he dead ?

Sydonay is really strong...

that god died.. I didn't even get why he decided to fight

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

@SkyFlames
I agree wih your point that J. C. Staff's decision has caused Shakugan no SHANA to lose its popularity. Then again, by putting a 3 years gap between Season 2 and 3, they can make the ending of the anime to coincide with the ending of the novel.

I am sure that we all remember the unnecessary fillers, such as the Konoe Fumina arc in Season 2. One reason for animating such fillers is that they were uncertain how the story would end at that time. By delaying Season 3 till now, J. C. Staff has a clear idea how the story ends. Hence, less fillers exist in Season 3, which is then more faithful to the novels. Again, this is my personal opinion, so correct me if I am wrong.

I think you're pretty much correct. What choice did JC Staff really have? After the end of season 2, they had very little material from the novels they hadn't already adapted, aside from the stuff involving Yuji's ascension as Snake of the Festival. And that is not a plot thread they could have really started without knowing how it ends, not unless they wanted to go for an anime original ending (which I am glad they did not do.)

JC Staff made a lot of questionable decisions in their adaption, but waiting until the novels finish so that they can have the same ending is one decision I agree with.

[alvinkhorfire]

^
@Mad_Scientist
Yes, I support your point. We may not agree with all of J. C. Staff's decisions, but we are grateful that the anime ending is same as the novel ending. That is the most important matter, aside from the fact that the anime is more faithful to the novels.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

It's just ridiculous that here you have 3-4 of the strongest flame hazes fighting against Sydoney and they can't even scratch him. Hell the guy wasn't even sweating during the fight.

Throughout the whole series we've met with powerful flame hazes but none of them could ever match any of the trinity or guys like Sabracc in a one on one or even 3 on one fight.

Shana and others are merely delaying time as they wait to be transported by Chiara and Sale, hence they are not attacking Sydonay at full strength. Sydonay himself pointed out that they are not really fiercely attacking him, as it should be. Another reasons for not attacking Sydonay at full strength is that they let time passes by, as to create the false impression among Bal Masque that Tendōkyū appears to have left the battle scene.

Of course, Shana and others can match Sydonay's strength, only if they work together. Still, I do not underestimate his strength. There is unofficial power level tier in this forum, stating that Sydonay is as strong as SoF Yuji, and is stronger than Shana.

_____

Is Sale Habichtsburg being contracted to 2 different Crimson Lords? I know that Chiara Toscana is being contracted to just a single Crimson Lord with two personalities.
I know that both of them are partners. However, their closeness with each other seems to suggest that they may be more than just partners.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Never mind the fact he's not the only one but I'll just leave it at that. I would prefer the flame hazes to at least make the other guys sweat.



Too bad Shana's attacks had zero effect on him and bringing Alastor into the field isn't something that can be done all the time.



And it was Yuji who broke their morale and said they don't have to fight anymore yet he's not doing anything to at least stem them back. I mean he does know that he's putting Shana in more danger no?

Yuji is basically focused entirely on his plan to care about sidetracks like that....call him a dick if you will, but it's just that.

"Zero effect on him" Who? Snake? Sydonay?

What's wrong with that? Both are supposed to be far more powerful than her. If they got scratched by her attacks that would be bad adaptation

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

^
@Mad_Scientist
Yes, I support your point. We may not agree with all of J. C. Staff's decisions, but we are grateful that the anime ending is same as the novel ending. That is the most important matter, aside from the fact that the anime is more faithful to the novels.



Shana and others are merely delaying time as they wait to be transported by Chiara and Sale, hence they are not attacking Sydonay at full strength. Sydonay himself pointed out that they are not really fiercely attacking him, as it should be. Another reasons for not attacking Sydonay at full strength is that they let time passes by, as to create the false impression among Bal Masque that Tendōkyū appears to have left the battle scene.

Of course, Shana and others can match Sydonay's strength, only if they work together. Still, I do not underestimate his strength. There is unofficial power level tier in this forum, stating that Sydonay is as strong as SoF Yuji, and is stronger than Shana.

_____

Is Sale Habichtsburg being contracted to 2 different Crimson Lords? I know that Chiara Toscana is being contracted to just a single Crimson Lord with two personalities.
I know that both of them are partners. However, their closeness with each other seems to suggest that they may be more than just partners.

Yeah, Sale and Chiara are virtually more than partners. No, only Chiara is contracted to the sister Zorya....Sale's Lord is Gizo.

[alvinkhorfire]

^
@Cosmic Eagle
Thanks for your informative answer as always.

Spoiler for Sale Habichtsburg And His Vessels:

According to Shana Wikia, his vessels are Länge and Saite, a pair of marionette control bars. Why does Gizo have 2 vessels?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Since you have two controllers for a marionette?

[HayashiTakara]

This is just rich, it's been confirmed that creating the new world would actually be beneficial. But they're going on the off-chance that there MIGHT be new human life in the new world and the denizens would prey on them... lol.

It seems to me that the flame hazes aren't even 100% sure of their decisions either. It's not very convincing when Shana has to tell herself that she's doing the right thing every episode.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

I think you're pretty much correct. What choice did JC Staff really have? After the end of season 2, they had very little material from the novels they hadn't already adapted, aside from the stuff involving Yuji's ascension as Snake of the Festival. And that is not a plot thread they could have really started without knowing how it ends, not unless they wanted to go for an anime original ending (which I am glad they did not do.)

JC Staff made a lot of questionable decisions in their adaption, but waiting until the novels finish so that they can have the same ending is one decision I agree with.

The only thing I would say again is to keep in mind that J.C.Staff produces the animation (i.e. they mostly coordinate the sub-contractors to get the work done), but they're only one of the partners who actually produce the show. The decision on when to animate what doesn't rest with J.C.Staff alone, but with ASCII Media Works, Geneon, and all the other partners in the Production Committee. Often times, the director and scriptwriters don't even work for the animation production studio (they're often contractors hired by the production committee). So I think people shouldn't be so quick to either blame or praise J.C.Staff alone for any of these big production decisions; even if they had wanted to make a new anime sooner, they'd still have to get the approval (and financial support) of all the other companies involved; they don't own the property, so they can't make the big decisions on their own. J.C.Staff produces a lot of shows with a lot of different partners, and these don't have as much in common as people generally think they do.

That being said, I do like the trend of final seasons that bring the conclusion in alignment with the source material, though I wonder if that'll keep happening if the long delays mean that sales suffer. Then again, even with the lower sales, it's probably still a safer bet than some other random new property they could have tried.

[syke123]

Great episode, really looking forward to the group returning to Misaki, although if I were Margery I'd be a little sick of the city by now. Preview suggests they'll pay Chigusa a visit, hope she isn't too lonely, btw who exactly is her husband? I have a theory that he's probably going to be introduced as some powerful Tomogara later since it's a little sketchy that they'd give him a background of being away on business all the time. Anyways it's still the most intriguing show this season, and a tremendous change from the previous seasons. I applaud J.C staff for hiring the author, as I doubt it'd be this interesting without him.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by syke123

Great episode, really looking forward to the group returning to Misaki, although if I were Margery I'd be a little sick of the city by now. Preview suggests they'll pay Chigusa a visit, hope she isn't too lonely, btw who exactly is her husband? I have a theory that he's probably going to be introduced as some powerful Tomogara later since it's a little sketchy that they'd give him a background of being away on business all the time. Anyways it's still the most intriguing show this season, and a tremendous change from the previous seasons. I applaud J.C staff for hiring the author, as I doubt it'd be this interesting without him.

In season 2 Shana met Chigusa's husband (can't remember his name) and didn't sense anything odd about him, so I doubt he's some Crimson Lord or anything.

[alvinkhorfire]

@syke123 and Mad_Scientist
Kantarō Sakai is Chigusa Sakai's husband. Information from Shana's Wikia:

Spoiler for Kantaro Sakai's Weird Behaviour:

He usually resides outside Japan, but enjoys making sudden visits to the Sakai household, surprising his family. Despite his skinny figure, his athletic senses are good enough to retaliate a flying kick from Shana without a scratch, who was mistaken that he was an enemy (although this particular defense was just a lucky one). His tailing and investigation skills are first-class, so good that even Shana couldn't follow him. During on a plot to save Yuji from being destroyed by Wilhelmina in the novels, he tricks the latter with clever timed exchanges of borrowed mascot suits. He eats an astonishing amount of food, and his eating method is just as absurd.

Other than that, he is just a normal human, and should not be a Crimson Lord in disguise.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The decision on when to animate what doesn't rest with J.C.Staff alone, but with ASCII Media Works, Geneon, and all the other partners in the Production Committee.

@relentlessflame
Thank you for your information. Some of us, me included, have no idea that the anime production in Japan is very complicated, involving sub-contractors as well. We wrongly assumed that J.C.Staff is in charge of everything. Now that it is thoroughly explained, we should refer the anime producers as the Production Committee, who will encompass everyone from J.C.Staff, ASCII Media Works, Geneon and others. I definitely like the way how Production Committee produces Season 3 which is a more faithful adaptation of the novels.