Fate/Zero - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by jeroz

well, my point was that Rider was never been portrayed as a ruthless character. If you think about his previous acts he's the least likely person you would think to kill someone. That scene is just so out of character

war is war

Alexander the Great is the King of Conquerors not the King of Knights.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

war is war

Alexander the Great is the King of Conquerors not the King of Knights.

And of course his situation is rather desperate. I mean he has little energy left so Rider needs to act smart.
Perhaps like others pointed out, kidnapping Iri is part of Rider's plot to provoke Saber into a duel.

As for character, just remember how did Lancer's attitude suddenly change in the face of despair. Sometimes even the greatest people can do vile things if the pressure is high enough.

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Broskander

Being Kiritsugu is painful.

If Kiritsugu summon Lancer class instead, then they would suffer together...

[Broskander]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Like others said this episode was like the continuation of the flashbacks.
Much exposition, conversation and character development.

Spoiler for the current episode and a bit more:

I hoped that we might see a brief flashback of Kiritsugu rescuing Maya (not like it was present in the novels but I wished for a bit of extra content like the scene with Jean'D Arc) but that aside that was a fine adaptation. They omitted a few things from the anime but that was all for the better. Without those little notions reading the speculations is going to be much more enjoyable.

Anyways, speaking of adaptation, I think the pacing is no concern. The remaining 4 is going to be plenty to animate the rest of the novels. And if it isn't thenwe have the additions with the BD release. I just hope Ufotable's budget can hold up because the finale is going to be intense.

Well, you can always do that in PMs, on demand.

Or in the QnA thread if you follow the usual rules.

But man, at this stage posting spoilers may ruin everything to casual watchers. I mean really-really.
IMO, the second half of the final volume was the best part of the entire Fate/Zero Light Novel. The part we're at right now.

No worries. I wouldn't do it anyway. I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the series. FZ is too awesome for that.

[Tailong]

The episode felt to short for some reason...,the next few episodes will have to be action pack with so many servants still left!!!

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Even so with the way Rider is portrayed in the anime, he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who would choose to kidnap Iri to fight Saber. Even Saber was surprised when she saw Rider with Iri.
And uhm, as far as we know the only one who knows the location of Kiritsugu's team is Kirie, so yeah we'll have to wait and see what's going on here.

Ooh, good point, I know Rider said they were going to go after Saber first but I had forgotten that (also, didn't he say he was going to use a different way of flying or did he say he was only going to use his chariot for flying?). If it is Rider though they're gonna figure out pretty fast that Iri isn't even Saber's master....

[HandofFate]

man, didn't expect Mariya to get offed so suddenly, with 5 episodes left, I guess its time for everyone to start dropping like flies.

I liked when Kiritsugu used his command seal to teleport Sabre, I always liked when those things are used.
Rider doesn't seem like he's the type to just kick down doors...I mean he's the most rugged out of the 3 kings, but he's still pretty well mannered...

[Swithin]

I haven't read the novel to be 100% sure, but I think we can safely say it wasn't Rider at the end of the episode. First, he and Waver were to be resting until nightfall - the abduction happened while there was still daylight outside. Second, he said that he'd have to use his chariot for flight, and as we saw at the end the kidnapper was flying unassisted (which is a bit weird... some kind of long-jump? I didn't think Servants could just superman about like that.)

Anyway, the whole direction of the event (not showing his face, not hearing his voice, making him an impersonal threat,) means that I don't think the viewer is even supposed to suspect that it was actually Rider, just to be pissed off that Archer would frame the lovable goof.

Anyway, I think the title (Return of the Assassin) pulls more work than just talking about Kiritsugu's mentality - which, honestly, has evolved a bit. His concern over Irisviel, using a command seal to send Saber, even after she's effectively exited the Grail War shows that. The absolutely emotionless "assassin" aspect of his personality returned in full when he went off to kill Tokiomi (according to Maiya,) but that didn't actually last very long. He can't keep it up anymore. Kirei, on the other hand, has recently returned to actual assassinations and Assassin was the original Servant he summoned. It makes sense if he has some part in this episode, which has checked in on all the other surviving Masters... and if it comes as a faceless and sudden attack, well all the better to make the title apply to him as well.

[wandering-dreamer]

I was actually just thinking about the title "Return of the Assassin" and I thought it was supposed to be a reference of Kirei instead (since he was originally Assassin's master), although Kiritsugu makes more sense. In any case, I think the strongest evidence it isn't Rider is that Maiya was fatally wounded and Rider hasn't shown any kind of inclination for action like that. Also where's Waver? He's always along with Rider and he didn't appear at all, if with all those little details it does turn out to be Rider next week I'm going to be a bit annoyed.

[Swithin]

Yeah, not only has Rider not been shown to be so ruthless, but just a few scenes before the attack he's telling Waver that he's unsure about the existence of the Grail, and in that case can't condone *anyone* losing their lives over it. Doesn't really make sense giving that speech and then killing a non-Master.

About the word assassin fitting Kiritsugu or Kirei better, keep in mind that Kirei was also an assassin for the church (Burial Order) before the start of the show, so it's not just Emiya in that line of work.

Speaking of which, I always thought the Servant Assassin's exit was a bit forced. If Kirei hadn't lost his command seals I'd suspect that they were somehow still around... I know that a Servant whose command seals are released can make a new contract for mana, is it possible to make a contract without command seals? The Rider setup doesn't really seem like Archer's game either, and although I've been trying not to read into "Return of the Assassin" as pertaining to the Servant, it might be a double-bluff ("Think it's too literal to be true? Ha! Joke's on you!" type of thing.) The problem here is that if Assassin were back, who other than Kirei would know where Saber's 'master' Iris lives? And if Kirei were still Assassin's master, why not use his shiny new Archer? Creepy old Matou is the only candidate I can think of, but if that were the case why give Kariya his special power-up worm (unless it was a ridiculously overcomplicated trick at mind controlling a second potential winner other than himself?) Nah, this line of thinking is too complicated.

[jeroz]

so....did I get it correct that

Iris entrusts Kiritsugu with her future (Ilya)
Maiya follows Kiritsugu for her present (now)
Saber works with Kiritsugu to change her past (grail)

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by Swithin

Speaking of which, I always thought the Servant Assassin's exit was a bit forced. If Kirei hadn't lost his command seals I'd suspect that they were somehow still around... I know that a Servant whose command seals are released can make a new contract for mana, is it possible to make a contract without command seals?

Wait, I thought Assassin was out because they were all killed off by Rider back in the first season, I don't think Kirei had used any of his command seals (I thought they had vanished upon his death, returned to show that he still had a role to play and then he inherited all of his father's seals in addition).

[zRyuu]

In the BD Tokiomi ordered Kirei to use all 3 command spells to force all assassins to go fight Rider. The Grail gave him command seals after that (was it only 1 seal or all 3? don't remember).

[Ithekro]

Well, if it isn't Rider, use process of elimination.
It cannot be Saber because well, it can't.
It cannot be Lancer, Caster, or Assassin, because they are dead.
Rider does not makes sense.
So it is either Archer or Berserker.
I cannot say much about Berserker, but does anyone honestly think Gil's ego would allow him to impersonate anybody?

So that logically leaves it to be Berserker. If it truely is not Rider.

[Goddess Madoka]

Guy above me is a genius.

[ChainLegacy]

I simply believed it was Rider while watching, but it's true his face isn't shown. Also, poor Kiritsugu, though I suppose Maiya's death should have been expected eventually.

[Allium]

A more dialogue-heavy episode, but enjoyable nevertheless. The pacing was steady, with each scene building-up to Rider crashing in at the end of the episode.

Well, I hoped to see a bit more of Maiya (BDs maybe), and while her death was expected, Kiritsugu's teary expression gave weight to the scene. I stated once that we should've gotten Kerry's flashbacks earlier, but I guess I'm taking that back now. Now that the battle's back on track, everytime I watch Kiritsugu, I can't help but feel that he's shouldering a large weight - something that I wouldn't feel without having seen the flashbacks.

And being Kariya is plain suffering. Having to eat up a worm that feasted on Sakura's virginity...that's just too painful and disgusting. I can imagine Urobuchi being Zouken...

Before I forget, Berserker's VA must've been happy to say something other that "RAAAAR."

A fine episode, overall. I'm really looking forward to the upcoming ones, because everything's going to pick up from here .

[ChainLegacy]

I must have missed the virginity part... and I'm assuming it's from Heaven's Feel or whatever that chapter is called, because that's the one I didn't play... disgusting, but certainly a good way to make the character Zouken all the more detestable. What was going on in that scene with Berserker, I wonder? Was that a figurative scene in Kariya's mind or something really happening?

[Broskander]

Berserker looks so much cooler in CGI.

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

In the BD Tokiomi ordered Kirei to use all 3 command spells to force all assassins to go fight Rider. The Grail gave him command seals after that (was it only 1 seal or all 3? don't remember).

Ahhh, I've seen some of the tv/BD comparisons but none for that episode, I take back what I said earlier then.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well, if it isn't Rider, use process of elimination.
It cannot be Saber because well, it can't.
It cannot be Lancer, Caster, or Assassin, because they are dead.
Rider does not makes sense.
So it is either Archer or Berserker.
I cannot say much about Berserker, but does anyone honestly think Gil's ego would allow him to impersonate anybody?

So that logically leaves it to be Berserker. If it truely is not Rider.

That was another thing I had been thinking of during the episode, Gil simply doesn't do sneaky and contextually it would make a lot more sense for it to be Berseker given the scene with Kariya earlier (although, if that was Berserker he was acting rather sane there....).