To what extent do commercial factors affect the plot?

[frivolity]

I read the post below on another forum some time back. My view is that manga and light novels tend to be more influenced by commercial factors because of the uncertainty of publication. Readers are often a fickle lot, and any story could be shelved at any time, so authors often have to put in various "checkpoints" at which the story could end prematurely without looking incomplete. At the same time, stories sometimes get extended beyond the author's plans.

Now, I don't subscribe to the "death of the author" theory, which loosely states that the story means what it means to the reader and the author's intentions should be ignored. I don't believe, however, that the intentions of authors and mangaka are absolute when interpreting the story, because they can and do change their stories depending on what will sell.

Discuss.

Spoiler for Ichigo 100% analysis:

Originally Posted by UHU

I read the last few pages of this topic, and I also read some discussions about Ichigo 100% on another forum. It seems like many people don't understand the ending, why Nishino won even though the story was originally set up for Toujou. Some say it was the result of of a fan poll. I don't think that's the case, it's just that story-wise, it was more natural this way. Let me explain.

When Ichigo 100 % started, its basic plot ("OMG, without glasses Toujou is beautiful") was very cliché and wasn't enough to last more than 20 chapters. If it had failed (like Ane Doki), it would have been enough for a very decent Toujou ending within such a short frame.

But it was quite funny, so it was popular enough to last. Every reader knew that a Toujou ending was a sure thing, and the glasses thing was already dying. So the author introduced another girl, Satsuki, trying to seduce Manaka. That way he would be conflicted about who to choose.

First problem: how could Manaka openly flirt with two other girls, even though he had a titular girlfriend? Nishino was sent to another high school, and after a long time of Manaka being a jerk, Nishino finally broke up with him.

Second problem: how could Satsuki compete with Toujou? It was like Toujou/Nishino: everybody knew that Toujou was supposed to win, the only difference was that Manaka didn't have to worry about taking the initiative of breaking up with someone. There was even less suspense, and as a result, no plot.

When Toujou learned that Manaka and Nishino had broken up, the manga was as good as finished. Toujou and Manaka didn't have any obstacle to confess, they were already almost lovey dovey, and they even had a movie date (when they met Misuzu). But it was still popular enough, so it had to go on, and the author had to find a way to make this interesting.

That's when Nishino is reintroduced. Toujou and Nishino's feelings are very well known to the reader, they are completely in love with Manaka. But Nishino, as the ex-girlfriend, could be a question mark. What does she think about Manaka now? Is she so casual with him because she found a new love?

From that point, the relationship between Manaka and Toujou remained exactly the same for the next 90 chapters: they share some special moments from time to time, but there was no confession, the only thing that lacked in their relationship. So there was no progress at all during a long time. Satsuki wasn't even relevant anymore.

But the author had a great opportunity with Nishino, she could create a new relationship step by step, not from scratch, but from a damaged one. Only hints were given to us about Nishino's feelings, sometimes contradictory, like when she told him she was planning to go to Paris (leaving him without her). Nishino then became the only dynamic thing in this manga, she was the plot.

During the 3 days perfect trip with Manaka, we finally learned that she was planning to get back with him. She was the one taking initiatives, but she never forced him unlike Satsuki. In the same time, Toujou did nothing, because doing something would instantly mean the end of the manga.

The first turning point was in chapter 135. Toujou then had the perfect opportunity to confess, the mood was great, they were alone, Manaka was waiting for it... But she instead told him she was planning to go to a different university. Even with the filmed confession, this trip ended with "maybe she does love me" for Manaka, when it should have been "I'm glad she loves me".

Honestly, that was for Toujou the biggest mistake of her life (even Misuzu told her before to tell him about the university after confessing). Now, Nishino was the one with all the momentum. She did confess, when Toujou was dumb enough to accept someone else as her date at the love sanctuary. Now the whole story was about the growing love between Manaka and Nishino, unlike at the beginning. It's how Toujou became history for Manaka, and it would have felt unnatural if he had chosen her even though he had no problem letting things stall between them for so long. The second turning point was in chapter 153, it cemented the fact that Toujou had already lost.

So if she lost, it's because the plot needed some expansion, and all her cards (possible mysteries about her) were already played.

Ichigo 100 % in a graph:

[NoemiChan]

I really thought it was "commercials" like Cola or something... So you meant external factors like polls or fandom or something like that....

It depends on the author. If he is wiling to follow the "consumer demand" but not sacrificing the intergrity of the plot/story.. it would be ok... But I could disagree if when there is already a manga/novel before the anime and we already have a closure in those versions. If changing the ending just because the fans" want it then screw him...

[GreyZone]

all those anime/manga adaptions of "dating sims" or "harem visual novels" have this. Multiple endings to choose from and I think the producers usually go for the most popular "route".

Problem is you only find out very late into the adaption which route was chosen and since I never played 1 of the originals in my life, the anime/manga is all I can experience... but this led me to drop a show after 3/4th was already over...

[aohige]

Bleah.

Here I thought we were gonna discuss Akazukin Chacha and its TV original Magical Princess aspect tacked on for toy franchise purpose.

Carry on.

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I really thought it was "commercials" like Cola or something...

The biggest example of that I can think of right now is Pizza Hut appearing in Code Geass. Even then, it was more of an amusing detail than anything important.

At the same time, stories sometimes get extended beyond the author's plans.

That happened with the Dragon Ball manga, right?

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Shyni

The biggest example of that I can think of right now is Pizza Hut appearing in Code Geass. Even then, it was more of an amusing detail than anything important.

These kinds of product placements appear in other shows like the Nike "swoosh" in Basquash and the subway billboards for an energy drink in Hataraki Man. The latter had no influence on the content beyond Hiroko drinking one every now and then, but in the case of Basquash, I think Nike was a principal financier for the series.

[Arabesque]

I'm not sure about the Ichigo 100% example being viable (the argument always did strike me as being lacking in terms of actual proof, but I never was that interested in that series or it's history to really give it much research) but in general, JUMP is a magazine which is pretty notorious for its cut throat policy for what makes the cut to success (whatever measure they use to figure it out) so I would imagine that the desire to gain a high amount of commercial success is a very important factor when authors are published for the magazine. (Though that could be a result of the editorial involvement)

The thing is, unless there is actual evidence that proves that Mizuki Kawashita had indeed decided to go with the popular option rather than what made sense in-series (or would've changed her mind if the scales were tipped in favour of another option etc.), we can never know for certain why she went with that direction. For all we know, it could've been what she really though was best and just wanted to write the story in that fashion.

The one example that jumps to my mind of a series that had been affected greatly by commercial factors is the Yu-Gi-Oh manga, and by extension the franchise that spawned from it. From the moment where Kazuki Takahashi changed the focus of the manga to what his readers liked from the array of games he showed, to the end where he changed the focus and had to beat the deadline to finish the manga due to the lack of popularity, and to where the property became a vehicle to the CCG and moved beyond it's original concept.

Originally Posted by aohige

Bleah.

Here I thought we were gonna discuss Akazukin Chacha and its TV original Magical Princess aspect tacked on for toy franchise purpose.

Carry on.

Mind sharing that story? It sounds interesting.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

but in the case of Basquash, I think Nike was a principal financier for the series.

From what little I recall of Basquash, outside of the setting and occasional product placement, the sponsors had little influence on the actual content of the show (sadly, it seemed the behind the scenes disputes with the directors was what had the greatest effect).

There was also that huge push by Pizza Hut to appear in any anime that was massively popular a few years back, and recently how car manufacturers such as Nissan and Honda sponsoring shows to promote their products. Though that seemes less about the OP is talking about (those sort of advertisement are made to create an association with what is popular and trendy and help sell more cars/pizza without hiring a real actor or model)

Originally Posted by GreyZone

all those anime/manga adaptions of "dating sims" or "harem visual novels" have this. Multiple endings to choose from and I think the producers usually go for the most popular "route".

Do they? Don't they just go for the default option and only in exceptional circumstances change it to another option?

[frivolity]

Lol, dating sims work on a different model. The way I see it, dating-sim-type anime work based on NTR - build up the relationship with one girl who's likely to be very popular and take it away by letting a very annoying/disliked/unpredictable/unpopular girl finish at the end through some unforeseeable or unexplained factor. The idea is that by using NTR, the audience will end up feeling very dissatisfied and unfulfilled, and go purchase the game in order to get the ending for the popular girl.

That seems to be the most likely explanation to me regarding the endings of Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka and Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by frivolity

That seems to be the most likely explanation to me regarding the endings of Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka and Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate.

The choosen heroines in both series are both the most canonically heroine in the VN (eventhough the heroine choosen in Akasaka can be somewhat debatable if she is actually the more canonically one, but i have less doubts seeing that "that heroine" makes 2 appearances as a cameo (with H-scenes nontheless) in Feng's Hoshikaka and it's fandisc AA)

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by frivolity

That seems to be the most likely explanation to me regarding the endings of Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka .....

Just found out that the endings in the anime and manga are different.... I like the anime better....

[hyl]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Just found out that the endings in the anime and manga are different.... I like the anime better....

I liked the original VN better than both the manga and anime .....

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by hyl

I liked the original VN better than both the manga and anime .....

I have no access to the VN.. but still if I will to play the game... I'll still choose the anime's route..

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Mind sharing that story? It sounds interesting.

The original manga Akazukin Chacha was a cute comedy of red-riding hood girl.
But when they made the anime, since the original manga wasn't as "marketable", the anime director added tons of "sellable toys" to the plot.
Meaning, they turned ChaCha into a transforming magical girl heroine, who uses a wand to transform into a grown-up "Magical Princess".

It was a prime example of commercialism making massive changes to the plot to turn it into profitable franchise.

[brocko]

The Ga-Rei manga was similarly influenced by the anime in much the same way, if you take the view point that an anime is a glorified commercial to sell the original source material anyway. After having her popularity sky-rocket from the anime, the manga recurred Yomi Isayama back into the story, having her as one of the central characters again.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by aohige

It was a prime example of commercialism making massive changes to the plot to turn it into profitable franchise.

Was there a reason why decided to make these changes to the anime? I could understand the reasoning behind it (since Magical Girl and its subtypes are always good places to try and sell to the market) but why not just go and adapt a Magical Princess manga from the get go, or just make an original anime instead?

As a side note, with the anime and manga of Akazukin Chacha being so different, how did this end up affecting the perception of the series?

Originally Posted by brocko

The Ga-Rei manga was similarly influenced by the anime in much the same way, if you take the view point that an anime is a glorified commercial to sell the original source material anyway.

I think that's another valid example but ... even if that's one of the anime core goal to promote the success of its parent story, that view point is quite extreme since it would mean that ultimately anime exists as a byproduct to raise awareness of manga, etc.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by hyl

The choosen heroines in both series are both the most canonically heroine in the VN (eventhough the heroine choosen in Akasaka can be somewhat debatable if she is actually the more canonically one, but i have less doubts seeing that "that heroine" makes 2 appearances as a cameo (with H-scenes nontheless) in Feng's Hoshikaka and it's fandisc AA)

With regard to Koi Choco,

Spoiler:

I was referring to the anime's heavy focus on Satsuki but pulling a sudden ending with Chisato. I am aware that Chisato is the main heroine in the VN, with every heroine's route involving her in some way or another. While a Chisato end was fairly likely, the decision to focus on Satsuki is one that I perceive to be a form of NTR. If they had made the whole story about Chisato with cameos by other heroines, few people would be motivated to buy the VN since they would already be able to see the ending by the favoured heroine.

The same goes for AkaSaka.

Spoiler:

While I view Yuuhi as the main girl, whether or not she actually is the main girl is irrelevant. The idea of the NTR argument is for the audience to get emotionally invested in one girl, main or not, and let her lose in the end so that the audience will buy the VN just to see her ending. It could even involve a focus on the main girl and having her lose to a minor character.

After all, it worked for me.

I wonder, though, how would School Days fit into all this? I suppose it could also be NTR.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by frivolity

Spoiler for IMO these are Koichoco anime spoilers:

With regard to Koi Choco, I was referring to the anime's heavy focus on Satsuki but pulling a sudden ending with Chisato. I am aware that Chisato is the main heroine in the VN, with every heroine's route involving her in some way or another. While a Chisato end was fairly likely, the decision to focus on Satsuki is one that I perceive to be a form of NTR. If they had made the whole story about Chisato with cameos by other heroines, few people would be motivated to buy the VN since they would already be able to see the ending by the favoured heroine.

Spoiler for koichoco spoiler:

To be fair though, the anime animated the majority of Michiru's and Chisato's story. While it may seem it was going for Satsuki at one point, the anime barely started her story from the game (at the very most the first 1-2 hours) and even in the anime it was explained why he never went for Satsuki (watch episode 10 or 11, forgot which one it was).

Originally Posted by frivolity

Spoiler for IMO Akasaka spoilers:

The same goes for AkaSaka. While I view Yuuhi as the main girl, whether or not she actually is the main girl is irrelevant. The idea of the NTR argument is for the audience to get emotionally invested in one girl, main or not, and let her lose in the end so that the audience will buy the VN just to see her ending. It could even involve a focus on the main girl and having her lose to a minor character. After all, it worked for me.

Spoiler for Akasaka spoilers:

That's why i said it was debatable, because the anime adaptation of Akasaka was pretty bad and it tried to suggest a Yuuhi end but in the end it felt like bait and switch for Minato, eventhough there were some minor hints for Minato in the anime

Originally Posted by frivolity

I wonder, though, how would School Days fit into all this? I suppose it could also be NTR.

Spoiler for spoiler:

It's an anime original bad end. A bad end which is IMO more shocking than any of the bad ends of the game itself, including the "train" bad end

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

even if that's one of the anime core goal to promote the success of its parent story, that view point is quite extreme since it would mean that ultimately anime exists as a byproduct to raise awareness of manga, etc.

It was the original motivation for televised anime productions intended for audiences other than children from what I have read. It's still a pretty important factor today. I doubt we would have seen a second round of 48 episodes for Space Brothers or a second season for Chihayafuru if those shows hadn't boosted manga sales substantially.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by brocko

The Ga-Rei manga was similarly influenced by the anime in much the same way, if you take the view point that an anime is a glorified commercial to sell the original source material anyway. After having her popularity sky-rocket from the anime, the manga recurred Yomi Isayama back into the story, having her as one of the central characters again.

Since I read/watched both, I'd like to mention that Ga-Rei -Zero- is entirely capable of standing on its own as a story--being a prologue, rather than a sequel, though mostly because it actually ended on a note of finality rather than a huge cliffhanger--at least, as long as you ignore the end credits stinger.

If someone watched GRZ and never heard of or saw the Ga-Rei manga, they'd be satisfied with the ending--I was. I didn't know there was a manga that went along with it. I figured the end-credits stinger was a lead-in to a sequel, not an existing manga property.

GRZ resolves itself internally, and the Big Bad appears defeated at the end, so it's a self-contained story.

Whether or not it affected the source material (read: it totally did, Yomi kept coming back from the dead over and over) and possibly was a result of the source material dying off (I think it was), is a whole other can of worms.

[brocko]

Ga-Rei Zero does a very good job of being a self-contained, stand-alone prequel. But that's besides the point of the thread which is why I didn't mention it. What's relevant is that it clearly influenced the direction of the manga afterwards and was able to draw more attention back towards the original source material. Granted some of those attention may've been misguided and were disappointed as a result since the manga doesn't quite carry the same tone as the anime did, but the influences are still there regardless. Both commercial and narrative.