Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Anh_Minh]

What kiss? When did that happen?

[Stretch5920]

Apparently it was originally planned to have a scene where Lelouch as Zero kisses Kallen to restore her confidence or something like that. Thanks to the 2 recap episodes (wtf) it was cut and maybe moved to season 2.

[Dann of Thursday]

Where it would probably be used more for the romantic subplots since I don't think they would use that as a confidence boost in season 2.

[Meatrose]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Where it would probably be used more for the romantic subplots since I don't think they would use that as a confidence boost in season 2.

And there would be no use wearing the mask for that one. Then he might as well do it hanging upside down in the rain while he's at it. ^^

[KrimzonStriker]

One thing I'd like to assert in this moral argument of Lelouch's moral ends, and that we should give him more credit for at least being somewhat impassioned about his rhetoric. This mainly being, what kind of world does he want Nunnaly to be safe in exactly? Why one that embodies freedom, kindness, equality, and all those other good things everyone else wants. Saying he works against that is contradictory of his stated intentions. Precisely because of his personal vendetta (i.e his mothers murder and the crippling of his sister, along with the every present threat of being used again) that influences his own personal beliefs. As shown in episode 5 and many others, he has a genuine disgust for many of the actions of Britannia, not just of his own personal concern. Likewise however, he realizes he cannot simply change all of the world to suit his vision no matter what he does, so he'll work to at least change it enough for those that matter to him. That doesn't mean he lost his ideals, just placed them in a realistic perspective. How he regarded nobles during episode one as parasites, his cynicism in episode 7 when Cornelia's troops massacred the eleven's in the ghetto, and when he let his guard down and agreed to work with Euphie, are not based solely on Lelouch's personal interest, but also on his own genuine beliefs. He's not all about selfish motivation is what I'm saying, and his impassioned speeches do carry a depth of meaning and personal truth that Lelouch lives by, not just a simple show for the masses.

[Dann of Thursday]

I think that is a very good interpretation of Lelouch's beliefs. He isn't a bad person at all really, but someone who simply acknowledges that idealisms won't get you far in the real world. Yet I am curious as to how exactly he plans on doing all this after he defeats Britannia.

While he is certainly more realistic than Suzaku was in season 1, Lelouch's belief that all that has to happen is for someone to win is a bit naive.

[KrimzonStriker]

But isn't that what Britannia has lived by and worked with, that those who win are the ones who decide what is right correct? History is written by the victors, without strength one has nothing. Lelouch embraces that philosophy to a wide extent, but his main difference from it is that he believes the weak should not be so carelessly tossed aside, that in some respect they must carry their own brand of strength, for what is Lelouch without his motivation from the weak and broken Nunnaly. That the weak represent their own brand of strength is not so far-fetched, as we look at Lulu's own personal history and how he empowered the fading Japanese is a testimony I think, that Lelouch reapplies and modifies Britannia's philosophy on the necessity of strength, but instead of using it to kill off the weak, Lelouch seeks to create a mindset of empowering the weak, to bring them up to a proper status of equal strength through cooperation instead of mere survival of the fittest.

[Kushi]

I believe that Lelouch is probably much more right than Suzaku. I say right because Suzaku is all talk. He hasn't done anything nor has he any power within the military. A prime example of someone similar to him is Roy Mustang from FMA. They both talk big about joining the military to change it from within, however for Roy how many decades has it been since he's been in the military and has he really done anything? Not to mention no one knows if it's even possible to overthrow the current government from within.

I believe the same thing will happen with Suzaku, though he might talk big about having no blood shed the only blood shed he's preventing is those from Britanna... As we saw earlier the Britannians have absolutely no problems in slaughtering the Japanese (armed or not, it didn't matter). Without Zero, I have a feeling that by the time Suzaku got anything moving the japanese would have become extincted by now.

For me this isn't even a question of morality, it's just who's approach is much more realistic and is avoiding causalities. Which to me is actually Zero's method... because the Britannian's honestly barely die, (they eject from their knightmares and fight another day.) While the Japanese are getting slaughtered

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, it isn't exactly true anymore that Suzaku has no power within the military, but I agree that his methods would not work in a country like Britannia which is pretty much bred with the sense that they are superior or that other nationalities are a danger to be feared, though this doesn't apply to all Britannians of course.

I think it will probably become more clear in season 2 about the morals with Lelouch and Suzaku. I doubt it will ever truly leave that grey area, but it may be just a bit clearer.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Kushi

I believe that Lelouch is probably much more right than Suzaku. I say right because Suzaku is all talk. He hasn't done anything nor has he any power within the military. A prime example of someone similar to him is Roy Mustang from FMA. They both talk big about joining the military to change it from within, however for Roy how many decades has it been since he's been in the military and has he really done anything? Not to mention no one knows if it's even possible to overthrow the current government from within.

I believe the same thing will happen with Suzaku, though he might talk big about having no blood shed the only blood shed he's preventing is those from Britanna... As we saw earlier the Britannians have absolutely no problems in slaughtering the Japanese (armed or not, it didn't matter). Without Zero, I have a feeling that by the time Suzaku got anything moving the japanese would have become extincted by now.

For me this isn't even a question of morality, it's just who's approach is much more realistic and is avoiding causalities. Which to me is actually Zero's method... because the Britannian's honestly barely die, (they eject from their knightmares and fight another day.) While the Japanese are getting slaughtered

True except Euphie came into Suzaku's picture and shared his same views. So therefore she was what he needed to realize his goals. So in a way he was on the road to accomplishment except it all went to hell after a silly joke.

And his existence in the military itself throws everything out the door in the Britannian policy which firmly states that no honorary britannian has any chance of promotion nor are they allowed to pilot a knightmare.

Suzaku broke those rules and still goes up the ranks and now he answers to the Emperor himself.

Remember what Lelouch said, he can't change anything unless he spills more blood. And now he's taking it global.

Without Zero, I have a feeling that by the time Suzaku got anything moving the japanese would have become extincted by now.

Uh no actually whenever the Britannians moved in, it was mostly a reaction. They only went into Shinjuki because of the "bomb". Cornelia only went into the other area because of "zero." As Ougi noted, under Clovis they were mostly left alone which Guilford critized them for.

Besides its not like Japan was doing the same thing anyways according to Lelouch.

And from what the generals noted there were at least 10,000 honorary britannians (Obviously like Suzaku who are soldiers) in Japan.

Eitherway I guess its up to perspective and how bad the situation is. I mean if Nunnally found out that Lelouch had killed her sibilings and sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives, would she be happy? Sooner or later she's going to find out.

PS. Oh yeah she'd be happy (Go Oni-sam, slaughter them all in my name!)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kushi

I believe that Lelouch is probably much more right than Suzaku. I say right because Suzaku is all talk. He hasn't done anything nor has he any power within the military. A prime example of someone similar to him is Roy Mustang from FMA. They both talk big about joining the military to change it from within, however for Roy how many decades has it been since he's been in the military and has he really done anything? Not to mention no one knows if it's even possible to overthrow the current government from within.

Suzaku is nothing like Roy. For one thing, Roy's plans actually looked realistic. As a talented officer and alchemist with a knack for inspiring loyalty, rising through the ranks and placing his men in key positions didn't look impossible, at least at first.

Spoiler for Not sure if it's spoiler or not. Old news anyway, but if you haven't seen or read any FMA...:

(Some unforeseen difficulties have cropped up, but it's not like he could have known how bad the situation really was.)

And he didn't have to deal with racial discrimination. And, more importantly, he knows the score. None of that hypocritical "My hands are clean!".


Suzaku, OTOH, supports a murderous regime while playing holier-than-thou, and had no real hope of rising very high. Even now, I doubt he's seen as more than a "weapon" by the powers that be in Britania.

[BlackOni]

That's one thing i never understood. through out the episode we see instances were nunnaly has extrodinary ability to sense people. she seem able to tell when lelouch in home even if he doesemt speak. she can tell a friend she hadn't seen in 7 years by a touch of the hand. she could tell v.v. was similer to c.c. when he walked in.

so how come she doesent no lelouch in zero. i mean they have the same voice, and he was in the room with her talking non stop.

the only thing I can think of in that she's in denial like suzaku said he was when he realise zero might be lelouch.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by BlackOni

That's one thing i never understood. through out the episode we see instances were nunnaly has extrodinary ability to sense people. she seem able to tell when lelouch in home even if he doesemt speak. she can tell a friend she hadn't seen in 7 years by a touch of the hand. she could tell v.v. was similer to c.c. when he walked in.

so how come she doesent no lelouch in zero. i mean they have the same voice, and he was in the room with her talking non stop.

the only thing I can think of in that she's in denial like suzaku said he was when he realise zero might be lelouch.

There hasn't been enough to suggest that she doesn't know he is Zero. I know it may not seem like she knows, and that may have been true at the start, but I sometimes got the feeling from certain scenes and such that she may have started to figure something out at the very least.

With the same voice thing, you have to ask how anyone who knows him doesn't realize it, though I'll admit he makes his voice sound different in some ways.

But this is probably a discussion for another thread.

[KrimzonStriker]

Uhhmmmmm I rather doubt she's psychic at this point. It's more to the fact that her other abilities are probably heightened to compensate for her blindness. If someone walks near her, she can sense the vibration from their footsteps. Sensing someone by their hands is pretty common if that's all you know about them... as for why she doesn't know Lelouch is Zero, you could be right and say she's in denial. On the otherhand, Lelouch has a mike amplifier in his mask (I suspect, it sounds like he's talking through a mike) that distorts his voice enough so that not even Kallen can confirm it's him. Then, there's the fact that whenever he talks to his sister, his tone and voice are almost completely different from his usual speech, being far softer and much more gentle. That might be enough to cause some doubt if you go by his voice alone. (attribute that to Fun-kun's amazing voice acting )

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Uhhmmmmm I rather doubt she's psychic at this point. It's more to the fact that her other abilities are probably heightened to compensate for her blindness. If someone walks near her, she can sense the vibration from their footsteps. Sensing someone by their hands is pretty common if that's all you know about them... as for why she doesn't know Lelouch is Zero, you could be right and say she's in denial. On the otherhand, Lelouch has a mike amplifier in his mask (I suspect, it sounds like he's talking through a mike) that distorts his voice enough so that not even Kallen can confirm it's him. Then, there's the fact that whenever he talks to his sister, his tone and voice are almost completely different from his usual speech, being far softer and much more gentle. That might be enough to cause some doubt if you go by his voice alone. (attribute that to Fun-kun's amazing voice acting )

Its not that her other abilities are heightened really, it's more that she pays a lot more attention to things those with sight don't really focus on like sound and touch. At least I think that is not the same thing.

I had suspected a mike sicne it sometimes sounded like thaty, but never saw any evidence of one. And yes, his voice sounds different enough when he is talking normally to not arouse any suspicion I suppose.

And again, this convcersation is probably more suited to another thread, though I feel compelled to answer.

[KrimzonStriker]

Okay, okay. Let's get back on track, and talk about the new moral implications of Season 2. Such as Suzaku's new angst, frankly I prefer him this way, even though I hate his cause at least he's being honest with himself unlike before. Second, whether or not Lelouch managed to learn some new lessons about the cause he is fighting for, and whether or not he repeats the mistakes he's made in the past.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, that is anyone's guess really.

Since they are supposed to be moving to who they truly are, I would expect Lelouch to appear perhaps a bit more morally sound in what he does. He'll probably still have that trait of doing whatever it takes to get the job done, but since he is supposed to be more likable I guess he may not seem quite as evil as he may have seemed. Suzaku will probably be a lot more ruthless now and stop being like he was before. The self-sacrifice may be gone now to some degree, with the Geass command helping in this regard.

I think it may be possible that we'll see more reasons for why the world has to change now, rather than conforming like Suzaku believed.

[KrimzonStriker]

Lelouch's political intriuge will be interesting to watch. While I don't think his methods will change much, the consequences of his actions or the moral controversy of whether the sacrifices merited it will be less extreme than before, while Suzaku goes on his methodical rampage. That's my hope anyway, otherwise I fear Lelouch will not have enough of a cause to rally the world around him against Britannia...

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, I honestly don't think that Lelouch has any desire really to be some sort of world leader. I'd think he would rather just retire peacefully. Or rather, I'd prefer if he did that since him being a world leader seems boring to me for some reason.

Lelouch's interactions with the other powers will certainly be interesting to watch as I'm curious how he'll deal with them in order to make sure their interests don't conflict too badly with his.

Lelouch may take things more into consideration, but I doubt his methods will change all that much.

[KrimzonStriker]

Execution wise though, he may take more care this time around to avoid any unnecessary collateral damage, like with what happened to Shirley's dad... then again, I doubt he'll have to worry about that since he's shifting operations into foreign land, so basically he can go nuts for all we know and still come out smelling like white roses

Still, one hopes his allies of justice mantra helps him and the Order keep it's cool, can't have anymore incidents with Tamaki about to shoot everyone, now can we?

Suzaku......... since he seems pretty emoish right now, I wonder how he'll act? Will he commit callous massacres like Clovis and Cornelia did in the ghettos like before, because I get the impression that despite being a one man army, his new job makes it seem like he has enough power to commandeer any command center he deems necessary.