[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

07151129 clearly is Battler's birthday and the birthday of his DESTINED LOVER! Haven't you seen those love fortune things all over the Internet?

You're full of crap!!1!!111-1=0+1=1!!!! It obviously refers to Asumu, who loved Battler!

[LaplaceNoMa]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

If you believe the theme of love is limited to Beato x Battler and is irrevelants to the murders then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Oh well, that's exactly what I was telling. I can handle accepting R07's rambling about love as something related to everyone in the story.

Natsuhi loves her family, Kinzo and Krauss. And it's easy for the culprit to blackmail her.
Eva loves George and Hideyoshi. She won't do anything that would harm them later. But that's what went 'wrong' in ep3, as R07 stated in some interview.
Maria loves her mother and it's easy for the culprit to deceive her about wonderful golden land where she'd be able to be happy with mama.

And finally, Rudolf knows that Battler is Kyrie's son. And I won't buy the cheap explanation that Battler's sin is somehow connected to Shannon or Jessica. Battler's sin, and the whole reason the things happen have started 19 years ago, and were related to some conspiracy with Rudolf's family. These thoughts are WAY more reasonable than 'Sayo-Fukuin house-OMGLOL ACTOR'S SCHOOL SO RANDUM XDDD'.

So the main love and the main sin Battler has commited are definately tied to his birth and his real mother. Servants don't have any part in the siblings' conspiracy.

[Renall]

Yeah but that's the thing. A theme is not a solution. A theme may support a solution. It may suggest a solution. But it isn't a solution unto itself.

[Used Can]

Well, there's a difference between friendship in Higurashi and love in Umineko. In Higurashi, friendship was merely a theme, whereas in Umineko, the phrase "Without love it cannot be seen" has been shoved onto us far too many times it's not even funny. For all we know, there may be a key on it, like a play on words, or something like that.

[UsagiTenpura]

Well Renall the thing is we're going with what we have.

Battler never paid much attention to all the clues about love.
However once he figured out the truth he made an arc specifically themed after it.
We are led to believe as thus it is really important.

The said arc mentioned a lot of character's past and how they include tragic love events. It also dwelved into new young couples' determination in love. However what it didn't dwelve in are things like the sibbling's theorical conspiracy, or the Sumadera's even more theorical role on the island. It did mention however Battler's birth and how Kyrie took it.

Ryukishi mentioned that the "key" to solving everything lies within arc 6 and that many people found it but haven't been able to "fit it" everywhere.

These things together makes it likely that love is extremely important to the "key". Some claims that said key is simply Shkanon but since many people theorized about it beforehand, it's doubtful to be a complete key.

Of course it doesn't mean that's right, it's hard to tell apart red herrings from non red herrings.

I'm just explaining the reasoning.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Well Renall the thing is we're going with what we have.

Battler never paid much attention to all the clues about love.
However once he figured out the truth he made an arc specifically themed after it.
We are led to believe as thus it is really important.

The said arc mentioned a lot of character's past and how they include tragic love events. It also dwelved into new young couples' determination in love. However what it didn't dwelve in are things like the sibbling's theorical conspiracy, or the Sumadera's even more theorical role on the island. It did mention however Battler's birth and how Kyrie took it.

Ryukishi mentioned that the "key" to solving everything lies within arc 6 and that many people found it but haven't been able to "fit it" everywhere.

These things together makes it likely that love is extremely important to the "key". Some claims that said key is simply Shkanon but since many people theorized about it beforehand, it's doubtful to be a complete key.

Of course it doesn't mean that's right, it's hard to tell apart red herrings from non red herrings.

I'm just explaining the reasoning.

Correct. This is what makes it so challenging. Besides, I don't think any of us is near solving it. Ryukushi is a trickster, a good one. In other words, we cannot solve it unless the story is complete. We can hope to solve one game, but the others won't fit to the theory. Solving one and leaving the rest means you're not trying hard enough. Yes, we have the Knox rules to restrict us. That's Ryukushi being downright playing with our minds. That's the point. To solve this, we must think like we have never before. Right now, we're all thinking like Battler. It's time we think like the gamemaster, shifting around the pieces to grind Battler and all his hopes. Theory after theory, we all sound like Battler.

[porchoky]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

07151129 clearly is Battler's birthday and the birthday of his DESTINED LOVER! Haven't you seen those love fortune things all over the Internet?

I think 07151129 is the disarm code for the bomb. It showed up in EP3, right? Maybe it was beatrice providing a way to keep prevent EVERYONE from dying at midnight. Why Eva failed to enter it... who knows.

[Judoh]

It's just a PIN number isn't it? Maybe the numbers have meaning (I personally think 1129 refers to [the author] C.S. Lewis's birthday) but...

http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7134.html

R: [Concerning "07151129"] Irrespective of whether each number has a meaning, at least the eight numbers combined together has a certain significance. I can only say this: Just think of it as a PIN number. People who hold the key or the key card couldn't get into the safe without this sequence of numbers. That means, as long as you know this number sequence, it's possible to gain a large sum of money. Aside from that, since this 8-number sequence is used as an important PIN number, the numbers themselves must have some significance. Otherwise, those numbers themselves and the large sum of money...

We've all discussed the numbers before at great length, but no theory has really jumped the shark with any wild conclusions or any deep meanings. Some are just more interesting than others.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Theory after theory, we all sound like Battler.

With our ruthlessness and lack of shame in making anyone look like a horrible person, I believe we all sound far closer to Bernkastel/Erika then Battler.

Actually I believe we are Bernkastel.
We're the ones this is only a game to.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

With our ruthlessness and lack of shame in making anyone look like a horrible person, I believe we all sound far closer to Bernkastel/Erika then Battler.

Actually I believe we are Bernkastel.
We're the ones this is only a game to.

You do make a point. Battler barely blames anyone. So far, I think he's only blamed two people on the chessboard. If I didn't play chess like crack, I would have made a good theory. I'll still try.

Spoiler for Fill the blank.:

Pawns:

Horses:

Queens:

Kings:

Towers:

It's a matter of assigning each person on each side. Let us say white is good and black is bad. I disagree. There is no such thing as "good and bad". There is such a thing as worries, crimes, innocence, and death. A mixture of everything in each character. In other words- All pieces on the chessboard are on both sides. Once all pieces are aligned in the right places, everything will fall into place. Like Tetris. Make one mistake, and you'll never get it right until the next game.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah but that's the thing. A theme is not a solution. A theme may support a solution. It may suggest a solution. But it isn't a solution unto itself.

If we're really going to get into this topic about love as a theme though we have to ask ourselves a few questions.

• What is love?
  
• What is 'true love'?
  
• What is 'eternal love'?
  
• Do the words 'true' and 'eternal' in these phrases raise any important in game implications?
• what do they imply?
  
• Why do they imply it?
  
• Why is it important?
  
• What is there to look at now that we've thought about it?
  
• Is it something new?

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If we're really going to get into this topic about love as a theme though we have to ask ourselves a few questions.

• What is love?
  
• What is 'true love'?
  
• What is 'eternal love'?
  
• Do the words 'true' and 'eternal' in these phrases raise any important in game implications?
• what do they imply?
  
• Why do they imply it?
  
• Why is it important?
  
• What is there to look at now that we've thought about it?
  
• Is it something new?

You do drive a hot bargain, Judoh. Those are things to think about. I is thinking. My head will implode from all this thinking. Maybe it's just me. 'Bout the implying things, probably I'd say conspiracy.

[Dr. Akagi]

Putting the pieces together (AKA general post Ep6 rambling)

Having just finished my first reading of translated Ep6 (again my respect goes to Witch Hunt for persevering with that beast of a “mystery” novel), here are some random thoughts on the episode (and you may want to skip this post because all it contains are indeed first impressions and general ramblings):

Spoiler for So long you would fall asleep reading:

General thoughts:

- As someone has already mentioned, I was also taken aback by the way Ep6 pushes Shkanon down the throats of Umineko fandom. Of course, I myself expected some Shkanon hints scattered here and there throughout the episode (being spoiled by the forum and all), but dedicating the whole episode to that single purpose? Seriously?
- The above also explains why I found the episode rather boring (the only saving grace being the totally catchy trap twins’ theme song, notwithstanding the fact it may or may not have been plagiarized from FF one or another), which was even more of a letdown after excellently paced Ep5, which boasted arguably the best ending showdown of all the series so far (in contrast to that, Ep6 ending felt somewhat predictable and unnecessarily drawn out; and by ending I mean not the final riddles per se, which were rather juicy, but the whole “waiting for Beatrice to save the day” plotline, which seemed to last for eternity compared to the actual showdown with Erika which took like what, 5 minutes reading time?).


On Shkanon:

First of all, I find Shkanon hideous as much as the next guy, but after Ep6 I find it unreasonable to argue against it.

Let us see:

- the whole episode (down to cheap coin tricks) postulates Shkanon and, to a lesser degree, Shkanontrice;
- the episode is called a confession on the title screen, which I take to mean “the time for riddles is over, from now on I’m going to gradually reveal the answers from most to least obvious” and c’mon Shkanon was pretty obvious a theory prior to that episode; it’s the same as “Kinzo is dead” in a way: the fandom figured things out sooner than expected so the author is just throwing us a bone to chew on; remember that R07 as the Game master is free to alter the remaining part of the story the way he sees fit to maximize the shock factor until caught red-handed on some logic error, the last lines of the ep6 being poof positive: Bern demoting Beatrice to being just any piece (ie a pawn) on her board could be interpreted as R07 saying: “Ok, guys, you turned out smarter than expected and figured out Shkanontrice; but guess what, I’m using my power as the Game master to alter the ending of the story in such a way that the identity of Beatrice from now on has little relevance to the core of Umineko mysteries”;
- R07 interview: the guy himself says Ep6 contains a major key; now you may call me stupid but I searched and searched and haven’t find anything that stood out as prominent as Shkanon in Ep6; in fact, the whole episode is constructed by both R07 and Battler with Shkanon in mind; of course, Umineko has never been a conventional mystery, but to feed the fandom a whole episode worth of misdirection would be …ahem… too experimental even for R07 because such a strategy may backfire big time with unpredictable consequences for the franchise;
- we must also not forget that, unfortunatenly, Shkanon provides the most economical solution to the final riddles of Ep6, at least at the time of this writing.


Things that struck me as significant in Ep6:

- in one of the meta scenes early on it is mentioned that finding the gold is a must if one is to be called the Golden Witch; it follows that if Shkanontrice is true, Sayo has to know where the gold is prior to start of all the games;

- just before the “essence/absence of magic” battle between Erika and Maria, Sayo talks about how she was prone to accidentally mess with the belongings of her employers/guests, which would eerily match Gaap’s description in the Tips;

- the final lines of ??? tea party (see above).


On where we stand after Ep6:

Guess like we have to live with Shkanon (and maybe Shkanontrice) from now on, period.
On the other hand it may not be such a bad thing (see my arguments above).
The proper approach from now on is to forget about whole Shkanontrice business for a while (because no way could it be that crucial a reveal with 2 games left to go; in essence it is all but confirmed now that Beatrice is no mastermind and Shkanon is at most a willing accomplice) and concentrate on other things which are known to pertain to the core of the mystery, such as:

- the nature of Battler's birth;
- the reasons for death faking in some of the games;
- the possible factions and their motives;
- the significance of 07151129 (which I believe is either the code to disarm the bomb or the key that opens the Golden Land (Kuwadorian) in effect granting the same result of saving the survivors from the endgame event);
- the Sumadera conection etc.

I believe the remaining episodes to concern themselves with these and thus we should too if we are to win the game i.e. to discover the ultimate mastermind (that is, if one exists).


On likely masterminds:

Taken all of the above into consideration, here is my predictions regarding the final mastermind (ie the one who planned all the murders if the murders were not all fakes until the endgame event struck {and sorry, I’m not touching that possibility with the 10-foot pole because it would mean all of Umineko was just a cheap joke; some of the murders in at least some of the episodes have to be real or the whole mystery thing just goes out the window}):

From most to least likely:

1) Ushiromiya Kyrie/Sumadera Kasumi/Ushiromiya Asumu (they could be triplet twins for all I know);
2) Ushiromiya Jessica (her stakes went up considerably after Ep6, ‘cause she has to be in on the whole Shkanon thing and thus in a perfect position to use Sayo or whoever Sayo’s underlying personality is; besides if Kumasawa=Virgilia, Genji=Ronove, Shannon=Gaap AND Beatrice=mastermind (and that possibility, however small, still exists after Ep6), than Jessica has to be Beatrice);
3) Ushiromiya George (same reasons as Jessica, but would be an underwhelming mastermind because of his general lack of personality).

[Almazluverdis3]

From most to least likely:

1) Ushiromiya Kyrie/Sumadera Kasumi/Ushiromiya Asumu (they could be triplet twins for all I know);
2) Ushiromiya Jessica (her stakes went up considerably after Ep6, ‘cause she has to be in on the whole Shkanon thing and thus in a perfect position to use Sayo or whoever Sayo’s underlying personality is; besides if Kumasawa=Virgilia, Ronove=Genji, Gaap=Shannon AND Beatrice=mastermind (and that possibility, however small, still exists after Ep6), than Jessica has to be Beatrice);
3) Ushiromiya George (same reasons as Jessica, but would be an underwhelming mastermind because of his general lack of personality).
[/SPOILER]

I vote George.

[DgBarca]

Hum...Is there people here that thinks that Jessica is not the culprit in EP2 ?
Well, before I explain it, I think that The 1st twilight culprit is only the culprit for the 1st twilight, and the "other" culprit depend on the event afterwards.
-------
In EP5 Battler, while trying to reach Beato heart, says that "At the end of the 2nd game, she surly was sad I surrendered" or something like that. So Beatrice doing reverse-trolling looks like true, but by "true", I don't say True but True. Because without love, it cannot be seen, and this is totally subjective.

Moreover...there is not only that...Suit-Beatrice could be Jessica too.
Well, it's tricky on the second twilight, because she would need to exit her room just after Kanon, dress up as Beatrice, then come again into the room and be Jessica again. But what Beatrice is saying to Kanon during that scene is like "You broke my love, you bastard!".
What makes even more sense is Beatrice's speech before killing Shannon and George, the "I AM PISSED BY YOUR LOVE GRAAWWWWWWWWWWWW".
After she killed them, she hide in the room. It was said that no one was hiding in the servant room in red, everybody including Battler, the detective, didn't find anything in Jessica's room. But nobody checked for Natshui's room.

Well...let's make it more organised :

• Someone, Shannon or Jessica, dress up as Beatrice to give a candy to Maria with Rosa's agreement. Rosa wanted to apologize to Maria and plotted something that would make her happy, in other words, Beatrice, magic and stuff.
• Someone killed the parents in the chapel and wrote a magic circle.
• Kanon betray Jessica expectations.
• Jessica lost her love and her parents, so she decide to KILLKILLKILLKILL.
• Jessica dressed up as Beatice tells Kanon that he did it wrong.
• Jessica kills Kanon, and threw him by the window, and close the door with her key.
• She decide to link it with the previous murder to not be suspected, link it with the epitaph killing too, and even fake her death.
• Jessica take advantage of the servant fakery to kill Kumasawa and Nanjo.
• Jessica follows Shannon, George and Gohda and kill them, then manage to escape ??
• She Enters the servant rooms with trick X, like breaking the window, and take the key to the parlor and locks it.

It's full of holes, but with all the "Magic scenes are falsehood but hide another truth" confirmed even in EP7 OP. and stuff...this level of, not even reasoning, because it's Beatrice herself that makes this theory, is possible for DgBarca, what do you think, everyone ?

And yet, it doesn't work if the 1st twilight murderer is the same for the whole game...half of the motive would disappear...well Kanon screwing up with love is still a good motive.
Since my English is not that good, I guess there is some horrible mistake in here...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Hum...Is there people here that thinks that Jessica is not the culprit in EP2 ?

I would become much more open to things like this if someone could explain how a staking could be faked. The structure of the stake seems specially designed by Ryuukishi to rule that out (solid metal, thin shaft, fat drill-shaped end), and we've seen people fake their deaths with stakes twice by just leaving them on the ground nearby, even though taking advantage of a trick stake would have made it more realistic.

[Renall]

I don't see how anything that has been proposed thus far as the "key" to ep6 is in fact a key. Keys open things. A key is a method, not a character trait, unless that trait implies a method. People need to think about this. If you're going to believe his interviews, then you have to accept as true his claim that the key derived from ep6 will solve prior episodes. No one has proposed anything that would do this. So why, exactly, are we satisfied again? Because we're lazy? Because we're tired of vagueness? Because we want [more/less] meta-world narrative and [less/more] of the game board? Because we just [like/hate] all the wacky new characters piled on in every episode?

An answer should make everything subsequent seem rational in its progression. Hell, even if you buy Shkanon, nothing in ep6 really makes any sense. If the right answer were close to anyone's perspective, it ought to.

Go ahead and wave the "key" in my face, but if you can't point to all the locks it opens, I don't see a damn bit of value to it. An answer is useful. Anything else is just dicking around. No wonder Featherine and Bernkastel were so unsatisfied.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I would become much more open to things like this if someone could explain how a staking could be faked. The structure of the stake seems specially designed by Ryuukishi to rule that out (solid metal, thin shaft, fat drill-shaped end), and we've seen people fake their deaths with stakes twice by just leaving them on the ground nearby, even though taking advantage of a trick stake would have made it more realistic.

It would have been easy to fool anyone with that trick. You know, In EP1, a stake was lying next to Kanon. Plus, I don't really trust Nanjo. They could be working together.

[Jan-Poo]

Ryukishi said that some people already figured out which is the key but they didn't apply it to open the locks in EP1.

Basically just because I still don't know how to use this key it doesn't mean it's the wrong key. Since Ryuukishi said that, I assume that once you obtain the key, whichever they key is, the solution won't come straight away.

I too am unsatisfied, but I'm fairly sure the key is the right one, the problem now is to make it work.

It's not like anyone else has really found any key that work better anyway.

[AnimeNemesis]

With all this shannon=kanon stuff, I think people should think about it a little more instead of taking it at face value. Personally even before EP5,

Spoiler for Shannon:

I think that Kanon is Shannon's illusion just like Sakutorou is to Maria and Jessica takes part in the illusion as well