(CR) Saki

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by M.Marangio

Spoiler for picture (to be safe):

Momoko \(^o^)/
I suspect she will have really low screen time, though .

@Eisdrache: Maid loli no share

[sikvod00]

One of the few "advantages" of being completely ignorant about mahjong is that you can't appreciate how badly someone's being beaten or how scary someone is playing. Since the psychological and technical aspects of the game just go over your head, you miss out out on the way people play; in a novice's eyes, losing and winning pretty much looks the same. I assume those who are quite familiar with the game have a better understanding of how abnormal these girls are and how scary it would be to play against, knowing you'll be inevitably crushed, no matter how hard you try and even with all the handicaps in the world. That has got to be very disheartening for those who consider themselves "good".

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by sikvod00

One of the few "advantages" of being completely ignorant about mahjong is that you can't appreciate how badly someone's being beaten or how scary someone is playing.

The series really hasn't gone into the turn by turn or how someone is playing aspect yet. It's so far just been special abilities (and will continue to be that way for a little longer).

[4Tran]

I finally got around to watching episode 6, and I gotta admit that I liked it a lot. While there are the standard elements of going into the greater world of Mahjong, the the way the show focuses on the fun and the energy of the characters that gives it the entertaining punch. In particular, I usually don't like characters like Yuuki, but her cheerfulness ends up making her more amusing than anything else.

Originally Posted by sikvod00

One of the few "advantages" of being completely ignorant about mahjong is that you can't appreciate how badly someone's being beaten or how scary someone is playing. Since the psychological and technical aspects of the game just go over your head, you miss out out on the way people play; in a novice's eyes, losing and winning pretty much looks the same. I assume those who are quite familiar with the game have a better understanding of how abnormal these girls are and how scary it would be to play against, knowing you'll be inevitably crushed, no matter how hard you try and even with all the handicaps in the world. That has got to be very disheartening for those who consider themselves "good".

Saki is a true sports anime in the sense that it assumes that the viewer is already familiar with the game and hence it doesn't try to explain things too much. Mahjong isn't a very difficult game to get a basic grasp of; unfortunately, what counts in the games that the characters are playing is Riichi Mahjong, and that has ridiculously complex scoring rules. Since the play by play isn't all that important at this point, all that you really have to know is that there are two basic strategies: to either try to win quick, low-scoring hands, or to hold out for a much higher-point hand. The other tactic of last resort is to play defensively and ruin potentially scoring hands to avoid giving up tons of points to another player.

As for the Kiyosumi players, the first three aren't all that special. Yuuki is actually a fairly poor player who has trouble counting up points, and who loses energy (or taco power!) after the first few hands. The thing is that she's fairly lucky early on, and she forced her opponents to go for low-scoring hands. Mako is okay, but not necessarily particularly great: she was losing early on because she was holding out for the really big hands instead of either defensive play or going for low-scoring hands. She started getting them at the end, hence all those points - it's more indicative of luck than anything else. Hisa didn't do anything spectacular at all. We should see more of the "abnormal" stuff from Nodoka and Saki.

[Proto]

Yuuki isn't actually half bad, it's just that normally she's paired up against monsters like Nodoka and Saki that she becomes the underdog, but against normal players we saw that she can do pretty well. (heck, a +50000 points difference is no small feat, even with some luck on your side)

As for the other two, when you say that they aren't all that special, well I guess in this first match they didn't shine all that much. Still Mako managed to come from a -18000 to a +18000 point difference) But,anyway, still they already gave Nodoka and Saki a +80000 points advantage to rely on, so for all purposes they already pounded the competition hard

BTW, probably there is a fourth style of playing, probably the most difficult, which would be offensive playing. Where you particularly aim for the discards of a certain player.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Proto

BTW, probably there is a fourth style of playing, probably the most difficult, which would be offensive playing. Where you particularly aim for the discards of a certain player.

Well, we've already seen that style a little bit in the show. Both when Fujisaki (the "wrap up queen" pro) played against saki in the cafe, and way back in episode 2 I think when Nodoka started gunning for Yuuki on purpose because she was trying to run away with it.
I don't think the players at Kiyosumi are incapable of playing like that. It's just they don't usually want to.

[Beo]

A comparison to those who know a bit of chess, its like losing a chess game in under 5 moves.

[Peanutbutter]

Nice job on the Ep 6 subs again, QB.

Really like all those minor details like names of the other people and schools etc. It mustn't have been easy.

Regarding their lineup, I've viewed the chinese subs (and manga) as well and the terms used were 先锋，次将，中坚， 副将， 主将 (Hopefully, there's people who understand chinese here) which are more well-defined roles which I think has similar terms in the Japanese language.

I've been thinking of very suitable English terms to describe those the best. "中坚 = Middle", "副将 = Vice captain" is kinda right but something is missing. Anyone?

(Guess this is also due to language differences and stuff.)

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Peanutbutter003

I've been thinking of very suitable English terms to describe those the best. "中坚 = Middle", "副将 = Vice captain" is kinda right but something is missing. Anyone?

(Guess this is also due to language differences and stuff.)

I fretted over that for quite a while, and there seems to be no good answer unfortunately. Either you lose some of the meaning or gain an inappropriate connotation or cop out by leaving it untranslated.

[itisjustme]

Originally Posted by Beo

A comparison to those who know a bit of chess, its like losing a chess game in under 5 moves.

Huh? There's only two basic ways of losing like this and anyone that's not a complete newbie knows of it (and how to prevent it).

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As for the Kiyosumi players, the first three aren't all that special. Yuuki is actually a fairly poor player who has trouble counting up points, and who loses energy (or taco power!) after the first few hands. The thing is that she's fairly lucky early on, and she forced her opponents to go for low-scoring hands. Mako is okay, but not necessarily particularly great: she was losing early on because she was holding out for the really big hands instead of either defensive play or going for low-scoring hands. She started getting them at the end, hence all those points - it's more indicative of luck than anything else. Hisa didn't do anything spectacular at all. We should see more of the "abnormal" stuff from Nodoka and Saki.

All of the important players have cheap/cheat abilities. It's just some are more absurd than others. Yuuki's is a very early riichi which is just luck. Nodoka's will be gone into in depth next episode and really is the most normal of their abilities. Saki's is her Rinshan Kaihou and absolute score control. Mako and the pres both have insane cheat abilities that will be revealed later.

[Anh_Minh]

... Like the ability to switch tiles even while playing against yakuza? Are they descendants of Akagi?

[Proto]

... Like the ability to switch tiles even while playing against yakuza? Are they descendants of Akagi?

That is normal and logical cheating alright. In Saki cheating refers to having access to the matrix and magically changing the whole flow game in your favor

Her speciality is the kokushi musou!!

Yeah right...

Though it reminds me of this game where I was doing pretty well yesterday, I had a +25000 advantage over the second place. Then in the last round the last place, who was also the dealer pulled a kokushi musou against me and sent me to the pits.

[ila]

Well with episode 6 this series is starting to become my favorite for the season. It was K-on, but I really like the character depth and actual goal that Saki presents. And wow, I love how that short battle clip from the OP is basically just a representation of online avatars.

Slightly related: Anyone know what ruleset is being used in Saki? I want to say Japanese traditional, but I'm really not sure, and its kinda confusing. Also, anyone know of a decent mahjong game for PC? Preferably in English. Since Mahjong Solitaire has pretty much saturated search engines, its a little difficult to find.

[Jiyuu]

someone alrady linked to this but here
http://gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html
i enjoy playing this one.

and theres the online PVP that everybody seem to use which is http://tenhou.net/ which i haven't played

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Proto

Yuuki isn't actually half bad, it's just that normally she's paired up against monsters like Nodoka and Saki that she becomes the underdog, but against normal players we saw that she can do pretty well. (heck, a +50000 points difference is no small feat, even with some luck on your side)

Don't get me wrong; Yuuki can be quite good at getting good scores - my point though is that her actual level of skill (i.e. understanding of the game mechanics, point counting, etc.) and her inability to maintain her concentration for a full two rounds (What the heck would she do in a full four round game?) are what make her a poor player overall. The reason she got such a great score is mostly down to luck, and bluffing out her opponents. If they had gone for big hands in the South round, she might well have been in negative territory.

Originally Posted by Proto

BTW, probably there is a fourth style of playing, probably the most difficult, which would be offensive playing. Where you particularly aim for the discards of a certain player.

There are a number of different tactics (as opposed to strategies) out there, but they tend to be subsets of the strategies I pointed out - stuff like trying to make one of your opponents give up the Ron, or going for a Tenpai if you think the hand is going to be drawn even if you can't declare Ron.

Originally Posted by Beo

A comparison to those who know a bit of chess, its like losing a chess game in under 5 moves.

Chess is a bit of a poor comparison. Mahjong is a bit more akin to poker where there's a fair amount of bluffing and luck involved, and even that's not all that similar.

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

I fretted over that for quite a while, and there seems to be no good answer unfortunately. Either you lose some of the meaning or gain an inappropriate connotation or cop out by leaving it untranslated.

It'd be tough: all of the terms seem to be based on military positions, and while they are relatively intuitive (or common ) in Chinese/Japanese, they would be horribly clunky in English. Maybe calling the positions "Lead", "Second", "Center", "Vice-Captain", and "Captain" might be the best way to go about it.

Originally Posted by ila

Slightly related: Anyone know what ruleset is being used in Saki? I want to say Japanese traditional, but I'm really not sure, and its kinda confusing. Also, anyone know of a decent mahjong game for PC? Preferably in English. Since Mahjong Solitaire has pretty much saturated search engines, its a little difficult to find.

The links that Jiyuu posted are quite good, and the flash game is even in English. The rules used in Saki is a newer variant of Riichi Mahjong with the difference being the addition of red 5 tiles. The Gamedesign site has a list of the different kinds of scoring hands in English, but it uses the original Riichi rules with no red tiles. The Tenhou game does use red tiles, but it's also in Japanese (and you'll probably end up playing with Japanese players). One of the most comprehensive Mahjong websites out there is at: http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq.html. It might not have everything you're looking for, but it's a very good place to start.

[Proto]

(What the heck would she do in a full four round game?)

In riichi Mahjong you only play a max of two rounds, you never play the west and north rounds (unless a tie breaker is needed, and you only play an extra or two games from the west round).

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Proto

In riichi Mahjong you only play a max of two rounds, you never play the west and north rounds (unless a tie breaker is needed, and you only play an extra or two games from the west round).

Yeah, even in the prefectural tournament qualifier finals that are coming up, as Hisa explained, each team-member plays _2_ han-chans, not 1 full chan.

So it's 4 rounds, East-South-East-South. I suppose it's really just a difference in semantics, though.

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The links that Jiyuu posted are quite good, and the flash game is even in English. The rules used in Saki is a newer variant of Riichi Mahjong with the difference being the addition of red 5 tiles. The Gamedesign site has a list of the different kinds of scoring hands in English, but it uses the original Riichi rules with no red tiles. The Tenhou game does use red tiles, but it's also in Japanese (and you'll probably end up playing with Japanese players). One of the most comprehensive Mahjong websites out there is at: http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq.html. It might not have everything you're looking for, but it's a very good place to start.

thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading some of the stuff over there :P

[Proto]

So it's 4 rounds, East-South-East-South. I suppose it's really just a difference in semantics, though.

Fixed

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