The Fandom vs Itself

[Kaioshin Sama]

I think a lot of what goes on in the cases mentioned in the OP is just the fandom and it's wide spectrum of particular interests struggling to understand each other because tastes are just so different. I think this holds especially true when it comes to at time stark contrast between what Japanese otaku seem to gravitate to and what Western viewers seem to want out of their shows. Believe me I've been there on what seems like both ends of the conversation many times, though my policy has always been that as long as one respects my tastes I make every attempt to try to respect there's. I think that's all anyone can ask of a functional fandom that doesn't want to cannibalize itself really.

What do I mean by cannibalizing? Well I think a good example might be the Mobile Suit Gundam meta-franchise. The problem with it and the source of much misery for myself is that due to the nature of it's various alternate universes and span of 4 decades there have come to be separate factions within the fandom that are always at war regarding the perceived qualities and failings of each particular entry and which ones are better than others and it's all but come to dominate the discourse surrounding the franchise such that it can be really difficult to have a reasonable conversation about it anymore. Thus in the end everyone seems to end up less happy and attacking each other while what ought to matter at least IMO is whether one enjoys the shows or not and that there is plenty of choice. Yet the fandom fights and cannibalizes itself.

I'm sure there are other examples as well, it's something I've definitely noticed has become a whole lot more frequent at least where the internet is concerned.

Originally Posted by Random32

I think there are at least two major subgroups of anime "otaku," Mecha and Moe. There is definitely overlap, but I'm pretty sure the people who buy Gundam aren't the same as the people who buy K-On.

You would be surprised judging by the way say something like Newtype Magazine polls tend to go.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree with erneiz_hyde on the Japanese otaku. Honestly, I think that they're less divided than we non-Japanese anime fans are.

There's plenty of shows with both mecha and moe: Code Geass, NGE, Infinite Stratos, Rinne no Lagrange, etc...

A show like Lagrange almost certainly doesn't get produced unless there's significant overlap between moe fans and mecha fans.

Also consider - One of Ore no Imouto's OPs had a giant robot in it. Haruhi and Kami Nomi have both had shoutouts to the Principality of Zeon of Gundam fame. You wouldn't see this if there wasn't significant overlap between moe fans and mecha fans.

Yeah it's kind of hard not to notice the overlap at times strange as it can sometimes feel, though I think it's a more recent development that they've started to come closer together yet sometimes one tends to focus more on either mecha or moe and I wonder if maybe that could be a tipping point for some people too that leads to infighting. For example the recent Accel World tended to tip more toward the more typically mecha side of things (things I associate with lots of fighting, strategizing and just general emphasis on the combat and mecha form aspect), while something like the recent Busou Shinki I think tends to tip more towards the moe side of the equation (things I associate with depicting situations of girls being cute). The problem is that both are still likely to attract people that prefer one be focused on more than the other and if it's not...well then...I think that's where we tend to see the sorts of things the OP talks about come into play in discussion.

[Sheba]

I may be a moe enthusiasm, it doesn't mean that I want a little more substance in my stories. It could loveable character chemistry, or a story, simple or complex, that is very well told.

Let me list my recent disappointments,

- Moretsu Pirates. Oh boy, the disappointment. It wasted way too much time on some characters I did not care for, and that don't even matter in the big picture. Example in mind? That race arc, giving the spotlight to a minor character that I don't care for. This wasted time should have been spent on PIRATES doing PIRATES THINGS. For Christ's sake, I am recently playing Sid Meier's Pirates and I have done more pirates things in three hours of gameplay than the entire Bentenmaru crew did in 26 episodes. Moretsu did not even have to do a sprawling epic a la Legend of Galactic Heroes, because let's not be kidding ourselves, LoGH is one of those one in a lifetime occurence. It could have taken a few pages from the Pirates of the Caribbeans to learn how to make Adventure with a capital A.

So with this small rant? Does it make me one of those joyless serious people ragging on moe enthusiasts? No, it makes me a moe enthusiast who wants substance, a tartare steak after being shoved cotton candy down the throat for seasons.

- Dog Days. I have ranted already enough about it. But when you see the sales it got... I get VERY disappointed and VERY VERY angry. Because what kind of message this kind of thing is sending? It's outright telling us, "We don't have to try hard and be serious about it because YOU will swallow this like candies and ice creams. And YOU will not care that you wasted on something that is ultimately hollow."

Now let's forget my disappointments and focus on the goods I have seen recently.

- Binbougami Ga. A show that could be repelling to some people with its very unsympathetic heroine. However, this series have shown surprising hidden depths and when it shows drama, it doesn't feel jarring but an actual part of the whole package. It's really one of the times the clown cries and the audience feels sympathy for the clown, even if he was a jerk. To know about its sale figures just makes me disappointed.

- Tari Tari. I have talked about it, in french, in my blog. It's really one of the better surprises of the year. It not only gives a balance between teenagers and adults, where adults does feel a part of the cast, and it manages to tell a story, simple yet beautiful in its simplicity and honesty.

So yeah, in the end, it's more complex than "Joyless retro anime fans vs dakimakura collectors". As for myself, as I grow older, I need to make sure that hours I invested in a series COUNTS, so when it feels hollow like those two series that disappointed me, I can not pretend to be happy and look for excuses for the wasted time. I'll make you know and why.

[Kirarakim]

I kind of wish we could interact more with the Japanese fan base. Only because what we think we know about them comes from what we are told or sales info, not first hand experience. Well I suppose those of us who know Japanese have an advantage.

But really the anime fandom outside Japan does feel pretty tight knit to me, even though we are from all over the world. I can't say I like the same series as every anime fan but as a whole I feel our interests in the industry, following the new season shows, ties us together.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I kind of wish we could interact more with the Japanese fan base. Only because what we think we know about them comes from what we are told or sales info, not first hand experience. Well I suppose those of us who know Japanese have an advantage.

But really the anime fandom outside Japan does feel pretty tight knit to me, even though we are from all over the world. I can't say I like the same series as every anime fan but as a whole I feel our interests in the industry, following the new season shows, ties us together.

Same here...

There was a thread before on how Japanese fans came to Animesuki, picked up our quotes, and return to 2ch or whatever forum they in, and translate them into Japanese for others. And honestly it was really fun seeing their reactions on our posts.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Same here...

There was a thread before on how Japanese fans came to Animesuki, picked up our quotes, and return to 2ch or whatever forum they in, and translate them into Japanese for others. And honestly it was really fun seeing their reactions on our posts.

I suggested that Bilinguals set up a question and answer exchange with another Japanese site, but no one really seemed enthusiastic about the idea.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Same here...

There was a thread before on how Japanese fans came to Animesuki, picked up our quotes, and return to 2ch or whatever forum they in, and translate them into Japanese for others. And honestly it was really fun seeing their reactions on our posts.

I couldn't read their reactions to mine though (I remembered mine was translated with one of the lines saying: "Everything can be solved with Divine Buster and Starlight Breaker) XD

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=104216

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sheba

...But when you see the sales it got... I get VERY disappointed and VERY VERY angry. Because what kind of message this kind of thing is sending? It's outright telling us, "We don't have to try hard and be serious about it because YOU will swallow this like candies and ice creams. And YOU will not care that you wasted on something that is ultimately hollow."

I think this is the sort of attitude that divides rather than builds. Clearly, there are people out there who have different tastes than you do, but that doesn't mean that they're having things "shoved down their throats". It takes some serious commitment and investment to collect a show in Japan, and it's not like every "cotton candy" show sells well. There's obviously something about this show that captured the imagination of its audience; why begrudge them their enjoyment? Like I said before, this sort of attitude seems rooted in a sort of bitterness that other people are having their tastes catered to but you feel that you are not. I don't think anything good comes from this other than just perpetuating this sort of "us vs. them" attitude.

The problem isn't that the market has poor taste or that producers are trying to feed us "hollow promises". Your problem is that your tastes are sometimes different, just as is the case with all of us. Your way of coping appears to be to blame the producers for creating content you don't like, and blaming the audience who enjoys it. I think that just leads to a dead end.

[DonQuigleone]

There's a mistaken idea that every time something like Dog Days gets created it means that another Tari Tari isn't.

This is not true. There isn't an arbitrary limit on how much anime is made. The only limit is how much people are willing to buy. The more dog days are bought, the more future dog days will be funded. The same goes for Tari Tari. But the more dog days are bought doesn't reduce the number of Tari Taris that get made.

What we should primarily aim for more anime generally to get made, and secondarily for more of the anime we like to get made. We don't need to argue that less anime of type X to get made. If people buy it, let them have their fun.

That said, it's possible for industries as a whole to lose their creative edge, and cease to take any risks. Look at Hollywood's penchant for more and more superhero sequels, which to be honest, is of limited interest to most of the population outside the "young adult male" demographic. It's great their tastes are being catered to, but would it hurt if they made more films for everyone else?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

There's a mistaken idea that every time something like Dog Days gets created it means that another Tari Tari isn't.

This is not true. There isn't an arbitrary limit on how much anime is made. The only limit is how much people are willing to buy. The more dog days are bought, the more future dog days will be funded. The same goes for Tari Tari. But the more dog days are bought doesn't reduce the number of Tari Taris that get made.

What we should primarily aim for more anime generally to get made, and secondarily for more of the anime we like to get made. We don't need to argue that less anime of type X to get made. If people buy it, let them have their fun.

That said, it's possible for industries as a whole to lose their creative edge, and cease to take any risks. Look at Hollywood's penchant for more and more superhero sequels, which to be honest, is of limited interest to most of the population outside the "young adult male" demographic. It's great their tastes are being catered to, but would it hurt if they made more films for everyone else?

You have no idea how long I've been struggling to explain this exact point. There's plenty of variety out there at the moment just in terms of TV anime. Near the end of the last decade I do think there was a period where there was a lot of very similar types of show coming out (some people liked to call it the moe boom or moeblob or whatever), but I don't think that's the case at the moment. Yeah I complained too for a while and got caught up in some nasty inter-fandom wars too, but I think you just have to look at the current season alone to see it and it's kind of been like that for a while actually so I don't see why there's still much room for infighting and segregation. I'm not saying everyone has to like and try everything because tastes will differ, but I think anime fandom as a whole could stand to chill a little more and relax. If someone can't find something they like and be content at the moment then I think anime might not be for them.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

That said, it's possible for industries as a whole to lose their creative edge, and cease to take any risks. Look at Hollywood's penchant for more and more superhero sequels, which to be honest, is of limited interest to most of the population outside the "young adult male" demographic. It's great their tastes are being catered to, but would it hurt if they made more films for everyone else?

I think part of the problem is that people perceive this to be the case in the anime industry today, whether it's really true or not. Part of the reason for this perception is because certain shows have a penchant for being hyped and heavily-discussed, and so it gives the perception that "most" anime exists within a rather narrow box of themes and styles (because "that's all anyone ever talks about"). A second reason may be because people don't like the sort of default/regular anime artstyle used across a variety of productions today, and sometimes judge a story's content based on the look of the characters ("looks like a moe character -> must be moe!" It could just be because that's the most popular artstyle these days.). I think the third reason is what was touched on in the most recent thread we had on this topic -- that there aren't an abundance of shows made in the style of those popular in English-speaking circles in the early-2000s back when the West was still seen as a booming market (which certainly isn't case any longer). So if you put these three together, you can sort of see the conclusions forming, even though it's partly a case of correlation not implying causation.

As Kaioshin Sama said, I think there's actually a lot of variety to anime today; even as someone who generally gravitates towards certain types of shows often perceived as popular, there are a lot more anime that don't interest me each season than those that do, which is good in a number of ways (first because it means there's lots of variety, and second because it means I'm not going to go broke wanting to buy everything ). I think it's fair to say that the anime industry of the past has moved on, and some people may have to move on along with it... but, in general terms, I would say that we seem to be in a pretty good place as far as variety goes at the moment.

[0utf0xZer0]

Eh, you guys do realize most bitching about Dog Days isn't so much "another godd*mn fanservice show" as "remember when Seven Arcs made good shows?" I'd count Nanoha A's and Inukami among my favourite anime.

[bhl88]

I count Nanoha as the one that led me to Madoka

[Archon_Wing]

This reminds me of when people posting on a forum tell other people to get a life. It's kinda like "wait, why are you... then"

I feel it's like some people are insecure and must put down others to feel less so. So it's like "Oh, I watch anime, but at least I'm not a narutard", etc. Honestly, this kind of thing is quite futile and just causes everyone to be a bit less well off.

It's for this reason why I avoid using otaku as a derragtory term and no matter how much I hate a show, I'm not going to make disparaging remakes about the audience or call it "filthy otaku bait" or w/e. Because really, why would I insult the group that keeps this industry alive in the first place? Well, at least not too much. Being a vindictive douchebag helps no one.

[erneiz_hyde]

Here's an old thread that might have some relation to this one. Might help gain some more insights (for the OP at least).

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

As Kaioshin Sama said, I think there's actually a lot of variety to anime today; even as someone who generally gravitates towards certain types of shows often perceived as popular, there are a lot more anime that don't interest me each season than those that do, which is good in a number of ways (first because it means there's lots of variety, and second because it means I'm not going to go broke wanting to buy everything ). I think it's fair to say that the anime industry of the past has moved on, and some people may have to move on along with it... but, in general terms, I would say that we seem to be in a pretty good place as far as variety goes at the moment.

It is, and the Anime/Manga industry puts out more variety then, say, American comic books.

That doesn't mean I'm not worried about the industry. Since 2008 the industry has both declined in output, and taken far less risks. There's a lot more sequels being put out, and a lot less original content (particularly expensive original content like Mecha.)

I think ~2005-2008 was a bit of a golden age for Anime. More anime was made, more quality anime was made, and more risky anime was made. 2006 in particular was an unparalleled year.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Here's an old thread that might have some relation to this one. Might help gain some more insights (for the OP at least).

I've read that thread many times. This one was created more with the intent of figuring out why the "stereotype otaku" keeps getting created and blamed for everything bad, and what can be done to stop it, and as this thread's showing right now, it's not as bad as it used to be.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Same here...

There was a thread before on how Japanese fans came to Animesuki, picked up our quotes, and return to 2ch or whatever forum they in, and translate them into Japanese for others. And honestly it was really fun seeing their reactions on our posts.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I suggested that Bilinguals set up a question and answer exchange with another Japanese site, but no one really seemed enthusiastic about the idea.

I post and lurk both Animesuki and 2ch, and I can guarantee you one thing: no, you don't want to interact with 2ch, especially the types in VIP and News Sokuhou.

VIPPERS are closer to /b/ population, and much of anime board closer to rest of the 4chan.
Highly immature, extremely racially offensive, and chock full of trolls up to the neck.
Heck, 2ch itself has compared its posts to "graffitti found on public restroom walls".
(Yes, there's a lot of self-loathing going on in 2ch, which is one aspect I actually find entertaining )

However due to the massive population of 2ch, I find it resourceful and useful.
Some threads in the outskirts are comparatively civilized, while major outlets are full of trolling and spamming 24/7.

I repeat, no, you do not want to be interacting with them.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

I post and lurk both Animesuki and 2ch, and I can guarantee you one thing: no, you don't want to interact with 2ch, especially the types in VIP and News Sokuhou.

VIPPERS are closer to /b/ population, and much of anime board closer to rest of the 4chan.
Highly immature, extremely racially offensive, and chock full of trolls up to the neck.
Heck, 2ch itself has compared its posts to "graffitti found on public restroom walls".
(Yes, there's a lot of self-loathing going on in 2ch, which is one aspect I actually find entertaining )

However due to the massive population of 2ch, I find it resourceful and useful.
Some threads in the outskirts are comparatively civilized, while major outlets are full of trolling and spamming 24/7.

I repeat, no, you do not want to be interacting with them.

I find the eroge discussions in bbspink quite civil though...like here actually...Same for light novel and manga threads.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by aohige

I post and lurk both Animesuki and 2ch, and I can guarantee you one thing: no, you don't want to interact with 2ch, especially the types in VIP and News Sokuhou.

VIPPERS are closer to /b/ population, and much of anime board closer to rest of the 4chan.
Highly immature, extremely racially offensive, and chock full of trolls up to the neck.
Heck, 2ch itself has compared its posts to "graffitti found on public restroom walls".
(Yes, there's a lot of self-loathing going on in 2ch, which is one aspect I actually find entertaining )

However due to the massive population of 2ch, I find it resourceful and useful.
Some threads in the outskirts are comparatively civilized, while major outlets are full of trolling and spamming 24/7.

I repeat, no, you do not want to be interacting with them.

Where did I say 2ch? 4chan is the equivalent of 2ch, and I wouldn't bother with them either.

But I'm sure there are more Japanese forums beyond 2ch...

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I find the eroge discussions in bbspink quite civil though...like here actually...Same for light novel and manga threads.

Depends on the thread.
Go to any major maker thread (not individual game thread) and it's full of haters.
Same with RPG/SLG thread, it's an endless shitflinging of shipper fights.

The civilized BBSpink threads are usually the individual game threads, the major hubs are massive pile of dung.

Same with manga threads, most of the major shounen manga threads are full of trolls, haters, etc. Even worse is the Jump Survival thread, pretty much everyone posts nothing but hate. Outside of the weekly shounen board though, it's pretty peaceful.
(And even in Weekly boards, the non-major Jump threads are pretty civil)