Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by babbo3d

am i the only one that thought that this fight happen is a good thing, Tatsuya can use it as a reference if he ever fights juumonji (i know that Juumonji is stronger don't get me wrong but the way they counter tatsuyas natural magic is the same) because like tats said to mikihiko magic (whether current or ancient) is not about weak or strong but about there strong or weak points (like rock-paper-scissors) so to to fight a certain magic you do not bring a stronger magic but one that counters it to begin with.

Juumonji would probably require different countermeasures, because unlike Tomitsuka, he's constantly generating new layers of barriers, and Tatsuya would have to deal with each one.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by babbo3d

am i the only one that thought that this fight happen is a good thing, Tatsuya can use it as a reference if he ever fights juumonji (i know that Juumonji is stronger don't get me wrong but the way they counter tatsuyas natural magic is the same) because like tats said to mikihiko magic (whether current or ancient) is not about weak or strong but about there strong or weak points (like rock-paper-scissors) so to to fight a certain magic you do not bring a stronger magic but one that counters it to begin with.

depends on how many layers Juumonji create.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

First of all, he already did. Tatsuya fought Lina who wasn't holding back and I don't think she was using Parade at the time. Second, even if the author surrendered to your complaints and pit Tatsuya against someone like his aunt in a no holds barred fight, you'd have to agree that it wouldn't be much of a fight in terms of both duration and content. Unless the opponent had some sort of countermeasure.

When she wasn't using Parade it's because at the time if I recall Tatsuya had some half-assed counter measure to it, but then the author gave her Brionac, which just happens to maybe exceed Tatsuya's regeneration speed(from what we've seen so far I'm pretty sure magic that can exceed his regeneration speed are extremely rare)
As for Tatsuya fighting other strong opponents in a no holds barred fights, well if we're talking about the strongest magicians in the world then they will also have some super hax abilities like Tatsuya's or Maya and so it will be a fair fight without either being able to counter the other specifically(I don't know, something like an uber pyrokinesis ability).


I love Id just as much as you, but you can't even compare it to Mahouka. Id is all about power. The more you power up, the faster you become and somehow it allows you to move faster than your opponent like DBZ, but the this allows the battles to be long and drawn out so as to satisfy the readers. Mahouka adheres to realism and practicality. Magic ability doesn't equate to magic combat ability, but you know all this already. The battles in Mahouka are all about compatibility. Tomitsuka's magic is not only a counter to Tatsuya and Shippou's, but also magic like Mayumi's.

I didn't mean I want Mahouka to turn into Id, where mountains are being sliced and the geography is being altered by every single fight. The only aspect that I want Mahouka to take from Id is how the author chooses the power level of his characters, I mean, Id is a genius among genius when it comes to martial arts/etc and because of that there is no one as young as him who can match him, the only people who are truly skilled in Id are all 40 years old or more and that is what I like, also just because Id met that party at the beginning of the series they didn't just magically get overboosted and became near his level which somehow happens in every other shounen series, it's like everyone was a sleeping genius with untapped potential just waiting for the main dude to appear and unleash it, I hate it because it's done too many time and is unrealistic.
So Yeah, All I am saying is, don't try to make Tatsuya's peer able to fight him, make older dudes able to

Third, the author doesn't always pit Tatsuya against opponents he's weak to. He wasn't weak against Hattori or Ichijou. Everyone had trouble with the parasites except for Ancient Magic users and those afflicted with pushion sensitivity. It wasn't just Tatsuya who had a hard time. In the case of Lina's Parade, it wasn't that it was a counter to him so much as he lacked the ability to exploit the obvious countermeasure to it.

[B]It's true that he doesn't always pit him against opponent he's weak to, the problem is the ratio of the ones against which he is weak is higher than the one he is neutral/stronger against, the probabilities of that happening doesn't make sense.[ And it's not just the ratio, if you notice all the opponents Tatsuya had no trouble with were in the beginning but since vol7 all the ones that counter him started appearing then/B]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Where are you basing your figures of "less dense than Gram Demolition" and that Tomitsuka has a smaller Psion Density count than Tatsuya? Even so, it doesn't matter.

Even if the Psion density count of Tomitsuka is less than Tatsuya, it has NO BEARING on density. If Tomitsuka only has 100 psions, but compresses it in an area of 1 cubic centimeter, it is STILL more dense than if Tatsuya has 1000 psions, but compresses it an area of 1 cubic decimeter (it would work out to 1 psion per cubic centimeter).

I'm pulling the numbers out of thin air, but the point is neither range nor Tatsuya's massive Psion count have any bearing on this argument. And the nature of Gram Demolition is that the moment it fires, it starts dissipating (at what rate, we don't know) lowering the density. In contrast, Tomitsuka's condition is constantly keeping his psions compressed, keeping the density constant.

That is exactly what I am trying to get to, if we're using number out of thin air then let's say Tatsuya uses 1000 psion to compress them in 20 cubic centimeters bullet, Tomitsuka's body is several times larger than the bullet so even if was using 1000 psion the area he has to distribute it in is much bigger than the bullet, as for the density weakening like I said before, this is a close range battle, tatsuya can just fire it at zero range. That is why I believe Tatsuya's gram demolition should be denser

Just remember, before you keep arguing, the author agrees with me. Because Gram Demolition FAILED. It's his world, we're just reading it.

This is his world, that doesn't mean the author is always right and as readers we should at least get to point out when he makes mistakes, the whole point of a story is to be read, not to be written so our opinion has value.

MUCH MUCH easier? I call bull. If you're going down to the molecular level, it's STILL billions and billions of stuff to sort through. In comparison, if he's aiming at something far far away, he just needs three global coordinates for the initial search, and then it's EXACTLY the same if the target was within arm's reach.

Well no, I said smaller than a droplet of water but not as small as a molecule

Originally Posted by Rasen

Who says Tatsuya can super-compress anything? Also, it's not as if Tatsuya is firing off ALL his psions at once, so even if he has a higher overall psion count, it doesn't matter.

Well Tatsuya doesn't need to fire off all of his psions at once, just enough to equal or surpass Tomitsuka's psion count for the armour is enough

And even if it's super compressed, it STILL dissipates. Imagine holding a ball that is made of smaller rubber balls. You can compress it all you want in your hand, as soon as you let go, all the balls shoot out in opposite directions. In fact, the more you compress it, the faster the smaller balls shoot away when you let go. Gram Demolition is probably something similar, because the author has mentioned its limited range.

Like I said before, he can just use it at zero range.

(this is a message written so this post can be considered to have at least 10 characters in it lol)

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

That is exactly what I am trying to get to, if we're using number out of thin air then let's say Tatsuya uses 1000 psion to compress them in 20 cubic centimeters bullet, Tomitsuka's body is several times larger than the bullet so even if was using 1000 psion the area he has to distribute it in is much bigger than the bullet, as for the density weakening like I said before, this is a close range battle, tatsuya can just fire it at zero range. That is why I believe Tatsuya's gram demolition should be denser

Again, there has been no indication that Tatsuya can super-compress anything. Remember that Gram Demolition has been described as a "cannon-ball" of psions, which means there seems to be a limit to how much he can compress. The limited range means he can't apply compression to it as it leaves.

Well no, I said smaller than a droplet of water but not as small as a molecule

How much smaller can you go? A droplet of water, 1/20 of a gram, 1000 TONS of TNT. This is NOT close range magic, no matter how small you go, unless you're going down to the molecular level. Even then't it's iffy.

Well Tatsuya doesn't need to fire off all of his psions at once, just enough to equal or surpass Tomitsuka's psion count for the armour is enough

It's not the size of the ball, it's how you use it.

Like I said before, he can just use it at zero range.

Doesn't matter. Take the rubber ball example. If you ram that ball into a rubber wall, does the wall shatter, or do the balls bounce off?

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

(this is a message written so this post can be considered to have at least 10 characters in it lol)

"Just so happens?" It wasn't the spell that exceeded his Self-Regrowth speed. It was the phenomenon of plasma vaporizing his arm and it's not just so happens. During his match with Ichijou, Tatsuya's Regrowth only kicked in after he had taken damage. In the end, his subconscious casting speed cannot overcome the conduction of force.

I know that it may seem as though the author has it out for Tatsuya. He does, but plot wise it's not that big a coincidence that his recent opponents possess abilities that make his fights difficult. He may always find himself at suffering from every possible disadvantage, but the victory he achieves in spite of them is all the sweeter for it. Savor it. His opponents

[NoLife222]

All of you do know explaining logic in Mahouka is quite pointless right? When the logic doesn't seem to go right, the author simply apply new concept to explain it (although sometime still seems to contradict). By the way, the jargon almost take 1/3 of the novel and many i still don't quite understand (cardinal code for instance).

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

All of you do know explaining logic in Mahouka is quite pointless right? When the logic doesn't seem to go right, the author simply apply new concept to explain it (although sometime still seems to contradict). By the way, the jargon almost take 1/3 of the novel and many i still don't quite understand (cardinal code for instance).

You didn't understand the explanation on cardinal code? The web arc summary did a pretty good job of explaining it.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

You didn't understand the explanation on cardinal code? The web arc summary did a pretty good job of explaining it.

Summary? I see the novel one and the meaning seems to rather to rewrite the phenomenon, the cardinal code apply the phenomenon (although i did not know if i understand correctly). Basically, there are so many jargon that seems vague.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

Summary? I see the novel one and the meaning seems to rather to rewrite the phenomenon, the cardinal code apply the phenomenon (although a did not know if i understand correctly). Basically, there are so many jargon that seems vague.

Courtesy of raptorfalcon.

Originally Posted by raptorfalcon

whsie gave a very good introduction to the Crimson Prince, so I'll only talk about the "Cardinal George". At a very young age (think it was 13) he discovered one of the basic magic codes. Here's the short version of like 5 pages of explanation. Basically, it is believed that there are only 8 possible effects you can achieve through magic (acceleration, pressure, expansion...). Each of those effects could be increased or decreased. By combining those effects, you can produce all magics known today. As I explained before, in this world magic works by overwriting the information of a particular object inside the "information layer". The thing is, that you always need to input in the magic formula the information about the whole object before modifying it. The "basic code" is the very essence of the effect and can be used on parts of the object instead of the whole thing. So far only one of the 16 basic codes has been discovered and the one to do it was Cardinal George. Since he knows the very basic element of the effect, he can use very small/quick formulas and affect only a part of the target. So when this very famous genius told his teammates that they would be screwed against any player Tatsuya was in charge of, everyone was surprised. He referred to Tatsuya as some kind of monster and told his teammates to hardware wise consider themselves at least 2-3 generation behind when fighting his players. Later on he went to personally meet Tatsuya and called him the greatest genius to ever take part in the school battles in all its history (basically admitted Tatsuya was superior to him). I should mention that while Tatsuya was explaining this to Leo and Mikihiko, he said the theory was wrong and not all magics could be made by combining these effects. Leo asked him.. "how do you know? do you know all 16 basic codes?" But Tatsuya sort of dodged the question by answering he knew of magic that could not be theoretically possible by only combining those effects.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Again, there has been no indication that Tatsuya can super-compress anything. Remember that Gram Demolition has been described as a "cannon-ball" of psions, which means there seems to be a limit to how much he can compress. The limited range means he can't apply compression to it as it leaves.

How is the term "cannon-ball" signifies that there is a limit on how much he can compress ?
And this isn't about some super compression, with taking in consideration the amount of psion and the radius where it's going to be used the one with superior density should be clear.


How much smaller can you go? A droplet of water, 1/20 of a gram, 1000 TONS of TNT. This is NOT close range magic, no matter how small you go, unless you're going down to the molecular level. Even then't it's iffy.

There exists thing smaller than a droplet of water without going down to the molecular level, for example there is grain of sand

It's not the size of the ball, it's how you use it.



Doesn't matter. Take the rubber ball example. If you ram that ball into a rubber wall, does the wall shatter, or do the balls bounce off?

The rubber ball will bounce of because first, it's made of rubber so it's already bouncy so the impact is lessed, it doesn't weight much, and isn't thrown with enough force, if you fire a cannon ball on a wall ? will it bounce off it ?

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

"Just so happens?" It wasn't the spell that exceeded his Self-Regrowth speed. It was the phenomenon of plasma vaporizing his arm and it's not just so happens. During his match with Ichijou, Tatsuya's Regrowth only kicked in after he had taken damage. In the end, his subconscious casting speed cannot overcome the conduction of force.

What I meant by just happens is that Lina happened to have a spell that exceeded his regowth speed, how many magicians do you think posess something that can do the same thing ?

I know that it may seem as though the author has it out for Tatsuya. He does, but plot wise it's not that big a coincidence that his recent opponents possess abilities that make his fights difficult. He may always find himself at suffering from every possible disadvantage, but the victory he achieves in spite of them is all the sweeter for it. Savor it. His opponents

Oh thank god, so you do agree that the author has it for Tatsuya, that is what I want people to acknowledge.
Well the victory aren't sweet enough, at least for me lol, it's just that Tatsuya is so overpowered that even if he were to face an opponent like Tomitsuka(tbh this is the battle that I didn't like the most) he shouldn't have this much trouble against him, I wouldn't have been as annoyed if this was Tatsuya vs Katsuto.

(Text of more than 10 characters)

[blackwhite67]

He's back!

Volume 9 Chapter 5 - 135/184 (August 21th)

Volume 10 Chapter 8 - TBD (On Hold)

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

Courtesy of raptorfalcon.

Although Tatsuya dodge the question, it is hinted that he know the Cardinal code. Wonder he will used it in the future? By the way, thanks blackwhite67 for the summary and in extension raptorfalcon.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

Although Tatsuya dodge the question, it is hinted that he know the Cardinal code. Wonder he will used it in the future?

Considering his Elemental Sight, I think we can safely assume that he does. He might have already incorporated the code into his activation sequences. Even if he uses it, I don't think it's possible to tell if someone is using a cardinal code.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

Considering his Elemental Sight, I think we can safely assume that he does. He might have already incorporated the code into his activation sequences. Even if he uses it, I don't think it's possible to tell if someone is using a cardinal code.

Now to think of it, all the magic he used were swift and cut out of all redundant detail. Like you say, maybe he already apply to his combat magic but without expert to see the magic, they wouldn't know. Even if they see the magic, i think Tatsuya will give measure to hide it. there is one question i want to ask, cardinal code is like a building block right, meaning cardinal code can be use to produce magic like "Nifheim" and "Inferno"?

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

Now to think of it, all the magic he used were swift and cut out of all redundant detail. Like you say, maybe he already apply to his combat magic but without expert to see the magic, they wouldn't know. Even if they see the magic, i think Tatsuya will give measure to hide it. there is one question i want to ask, cardinal code is like a building block right, meaning cardinal code can be use to produce magic like "Nifheim" and "Inferno"?

Yes. They are building blocks for all systemic magic.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

Now to think of it, all the magic he used were swift and cut out of all redundant detail. Like you say, maybe he already apply to his combat magic but without expert to see the magic, they wouldn't know. Even if they see the magic, i think Tatsuya will give measure to hide it. there is one question i want to ask, cardinal code is like a building block right, meaning cardinal code can be use to produce magic like "Nifheim" and "Inferno"?

We don't know, because Tatsuya said that the theory itself is wrong.

Basically, Cardinal Codes (the definition, not the theory) exist, but there are magics that you can't build with them. (He did not give any examples.)

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rava

We don't know, because Tatsuya said that the theory itself is wrong.

Basically, Cardinal Codes (the definition, not the theory) exist, but there are magics that you can't build with them. (He did not give any examples.)

I think he was referring to mental interference magic or magic that affects the soul like Miyuki's Cocytus.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

How is the term "cannon-ball" signifies that there is a limit on how much he can compress ?

Simple, because if he could compress it further, the weakness of Gram Demolition would NOT be the distance. The more you can compress it, the further it will be effective.

And this isn't about some super compression, with taking in consideration the amount of psion and the radius where it's going to be used the one with superior density should be clear.

But you have NO idea as to how thick Tomitsuka's armor is, or his psion count. Therefore, you can make absolutely no conclusions as to its density. What if it's a micrometer thick? Then a bullet-sized gram demolition is boned, let alone a cannon-ball sized one.

There exists thing smaller than a droplet of water without going down to the molecular level, for example there is grain of sand

The average grain of sand is equal to 0.0026 grams. That's equal about 50 TONS of TNT. This is what 50 Tons can do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIQr62lZbsM

Yeeaaaaah, that'll work great in close-quarters combat.

The rubber ball will bounce of because first, it's made of rubber so it's already bouncy so the impact is lessed, it doesn't weight much, and isn't thrown with enough force,

Ah, so how much force would Tatsuya need to throw his ball of rapidly expanding psions at?

You've also missed the point, as it doesn't matter if it's rubber or iron. The point is: same material. The reason I used rubber is because the moment you let go, at LEAST half of it is trying to escape in a different direction than the one you want it to go in. Everything tries to move in the direction of least resistance.

if you fire a cannon ball on a wall ? will it bounce off it ?

If you fire it at a wall of equal density and same material, it will. At the bare minimum, it will not break through.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

I think he was referring to mental interference magic or magic that affects the soul like Miyuki's Cocytus.

But i think somewhere in the novel, it is already said cardinal code is used only to build systematic magic. The other three (Outer systematic, Non systematic,Perception type) is already excluded from cardinal code. There are magics that cannot be build with the code is systematic magic.

[babbo3d]

the point is there is just no way to turn material burst into a 1 on 1 weapon specially in a city.