AnimeSuki Forums

Fireminer · 2013-08-17, 21:48

Well, who know? Maybe they innovated the engine or fuel faster than our world!

LeoXiao · 2013-08-19, 13:14

Africa and America have a lot of resources. But civilian economies would be highly strained. Everyone would have to be very poor to support the military that is depicted, even assuming they found out how to produce TSFs relatively cheaply.

Wild Goose · 2013-08-22, 21:18

tl;dr, Muv-Luv economies are magic, about the only people who could support this level of spending are the Americans.

And you never know with America. During Nam, Gulf 1 & 2 and Afghanistan, people were happily living normally while spending billions on the military...

wavehawk · 2013-09-17, 04:45

Is there any mention in the ML sourcebooks about missile/gun weapons manufacturers like Rayethon, Matra, Colt, et al? I mean there's info about TSF manufacturers (having slightly different names from real-world), but I'm just wonderign if the same is true for other weapons systems.

Wild Goose · 2013-09-17, 06:36

Not much. I'd assume that Alliant Techsystems makes the US chainguns (or rather, McDael-Douglam and Hughes made the chainguns, then ATK picked up their chaingun business). GE probably makes the GAU-8 as in IRL.

wavehawk · 2013-09-17, 06:48

Urgh. I'm not sure if i should stick to the real-world name of Rayethon or invent some Kooki mistranslation---and then look like an idiot when they declare the official name.

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-09-17, 07:20

Yeah, I don't think any weapon manufacturers are mentioned in M-L. I do remember that individual Assault Cannons are supposed to be a reference, or are largely based on, real life designs (i.e, Type-87 is pretty much P90, WS-16 line is the M-16, Soviet A-7 is based on some obscure Russian SMG etc.)

I'd go with whichever you want.

Fireminer · 2013-09-17, 07:45

Hey, I've this question: Where would the world get oil from? Middle East and Russia are ruined, so all that left are America (especially Venezuella), Alaska (Really hard to get), On the Bering Sea, e.g. I expect a sharp rise on Oil price due to the little number of remaining site and the hardness in trafficking. But would that lead to something like "Green Economy" and "Green Lifestyle", since we must use everything we have?

grevierr · 2013-09-17, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Hey, I've this question: Where would the world get oil from? Middle East and Russia are ruined, so all that left are America (especially Venezuella), Alaska (Really hard to get), On the Bering Sea, e.g. I expect a sharp rise on Oil price due to the little number of remaining site and the hardness in trafficking. But would that lead to something like "Green Economy" and "Green Lifestyle", since we must use everything we have?

Consider first the issue with the current fuel crisis we will face IRL. The factors you get are 'Supply' and 'Demand'. Lets say that Supply has been reduced due to the loss of the middle eastern sources as you said. There are still the Western continent and Africa which can serve as sources of fuel. Then the most critical point, Demand... I'm sure you know just how many people there are left in the Alterverse, don't you...? 1/2 a cake is more than enough for 1 person compared to sharing a whole cake between 7.

MrTerrorist · 2013-09-17, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by grevierr

Consider first the issue with the current fuel crisis we will face IRL. The factors you get are 'Supply' and 'Demand'. Lets say that Supply has been reduced due to the loss of the middle eastern sources as you said. There are still the Western continent and Africa which can serve as sources of fuel. Then the most critical point, Demand... I'm sure you know just how many people there are left in the Alterverse, don't you...? 1/2 a cake is more than enough for 1 person compared to sharing a whole cake between 7.

You know that those make sense. With less consumers in the Alterverse, less resources are being consume and wasted.

Fireminer · 2013-09-17, 08:15

Refined fuel? I'm pretty sure that TSF uses the same A-Type fuel for Fighter in our world.

Next is the economy. Globalization is over, since the developing countries are down. Also, because this is war, so America famous Car Factories or Japan Media Empire are out of the question. Ration for Civil? We have seen Forced Labour Camp, so that would be another posibility. Lastly, I expected almost every non-military personel to turn into weapon factory worker or agriculture.

Oh, and the worst part? We won't have Vodka or Black Beer to knock ourself off.

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-09-17, 08:29

I'm pretty sure all fuel is refined. Since you need to refine oil for it to be useful in any way.

What grev said makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider that presence of BETA would lead to certain things being developed differently. For example, I can't really see aerial transportation being a very huge part of commerce. Military uses them, but chances are that nobody else does, and most private industries rely on trains and ships, which are less fuel intensive.

America, and number of other countries, may also not use classical fuel for energy needs, instead relying on nuclear power plants (as France does today). It's a more reliable choice, especially when you consider that major sources of Uranium - Africa and Australia - are pretty much BETA-free.

And there will always be economy, it's just most of it is inward-focused, rather than be export-based, barring food and military industries. I imagine that countries like America, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Brazil etc. are actually pretty close to how they are today. Remember, their citizens are implied to live in relative comfort, enjoying real food and the like. Only citizens in invaded countries or Third World can be expected to live miserable existence, and even then, the rich and the cunning will find a way. For example, Japanese noble families don't look like they're exactly poor. I wonder, how many Shiranuis could you buy with all those golden trinkets Shogun carriers around on her dress uniform?

Lastly, the camps are *not* forced labor camps; it's people taking things out of the context. Yuuko and others imply that conditions are not great, but they're not flat out concentration camp level. I bet that most refugees don't even have to work. But it's that most of them - being European middle-class (at least in case of America),are used to a certain standard of living. Americans can't provide it, because then they'd have to explain to their taxpayers why they have to pay for other people who don't work. That leaves refugees with two options - work in factory, or sign-up with US military. For anything else, you need US citizenship. Russia probably does use forced labor, but it's the fucking USSR. There's a reason why a lot of Warsaw Pact troops just let BETA Chomp Eastern Block.

grevierr · 2013-09-17, 09:10

Just to add on to what I mentioned, in 1973, the BETA landed, and by 1974 30% of the population is dead. By 1995 50% are gone. So thats 30 years of fuel not being wasted.

Add to the fact that the world would have been on a war footing, which means research and technology development would be geared towards efficiency. Considering that a fuel cell powers a TSF, with fuel mainly being needed only for the jump units, I would say that they would have an highly efficient energy source right there. So fuel would be the least of their worries.

And yes, for the countries fighting on the front lines (the Eastern Hemisphere), all available manpower male and female above the age of 14 gets drafted, and production and agriculture, basically any previously civilian job, would have been taken over by the military. See the history of the US War Economy in WW2 for an example of how it would go. There are labor camps according to Schwarzemarken in the 1980s, but that is only for dissenters against the Communist regime. Otherwise there are the Refugee camps, which may be drawn upon for human resource in factories, if they are lucky. They might starve otherwise, depending on how corrupt the UN forces responsible for distribution relief supplies are (See Africa). America would be the last place for the economy to be affected, so their culture would roughly be the closest to what we have IRL.

Wild Goose · 2013-09-17, 10:43

Not all the oil is gone; tere's the North Sea, and South East asia; there's oilfields off Brunei and Sarawak, natural gas at Sabah, more oil off Terengganu...

Alastor Mobius Toth · 2013-09-17, 10:54

Plus, the governments may be less concerned about the profit margin. They are already making money off war, so it's not really unfeasible for America to build oil rigs in the Arctic, or nib those oil sands in Canada, which justifying the expenses under "defense spending tab".

Fireminer · 2013-09-17, 15:58

Hey, what would you guys do when you were ordered a Laserjard, but encountered a Phalanx-formation BETA group with the Laser on middle, surrounded by Grappler and Destroyer?

Also, wouldn't we have War Bond in US?

wavehawk · 2013-09-27, 22:44

Question: How strict are the Royal Guards with the coloration of their Takemis? The Type-00A is white-colored and piloted by descendants of Samurai Families, while the Type-00C is normally a gunmetal/black/grey-ish color for normal pilots.

Is it possible for a Type-00C to be painted in white? Or is the rule too strict?

grevierr · 2013-09-27, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavehawk

Question: How strict are the Royal Guards with the coloration of their Takemis? The Type-00A is white-colored and piloted by descendants of Samurai Families, while the Type-00C is normally a gunmetal/black/grey-ish color for normal pilots.

Is it possible for a Type-00C to be painted in white? Or is the rule too strict?

How strict are soldiers about wearing the proper ranks? Think about it.

wavehawk · 2013-09-27, 23:11

I knew it had to do with their status, but I didn't think the coloration was solely for rank. It's only the Royal Guard that do this in the ML-verse, I think? Or am I missing something else? I do know that UN Shiranui and IJA Shiranui have differing color schemes but does that have anything to do with this?

I'm just wonder what I can and can't do with TSFs (for various reasons)

Fireminer · 2013-09-27, 23:21

Thinking about it similar to the Zeon. Remember that we both have Char and Johnny who use Red?

But BETA don't discriminate with color, you know. By the end of the day, all matter are their filled stomach.

2013-08-22, 21:18	Link #103
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	tl;dr, Muv-Luv economies are magic, about the only people who could support this level of spending are the Americans. And you never know with America. During Nam, Gulf 1 & 2 and Afghanistan, people were happily living normally while spending billions on the military... __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-09-17, 04:45	Link #104
wavehawk Some say I'm the Reverse Join Date: Jul 2006	Is there any mention in the ML sourcebooks about missile/gun weapons manufacturers like Rayethon, Matra, Colt, et al? I mean there's info about TSF manufacturers (having slightly different names from real-world), but I'm just wonderign if the same is true for other weapons systems. __________________ "We haven't been properly introduced..."

2013-09-17, 06:36	Link #105
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Not much. I'd assume that Alliant Techsystems makes the US chainguns (or rather, McDael-Douglam and Hughes made the chainguns, then ATK picked up their chaingun business). GE probably makes the GAU-8 as in IRL. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-09-17, 06:48	Link #106
wavehawk Some say I'm the Reverse Join Date: Jul 2006	Urgh. I'm not sure if i should stick to the real-world name of Rayethon or invent some Kooki mistranslation---and then look like an idiot when they declare the official name. __________________ "We haven't been properly introduced..."

2013-09-17, 07:20	Link #107
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Yeah, I don't think any weapon manufacturers are mentioned in M-L. I do remember that individual Assault Cannons are supposed to be a reference, or are largely based on, real life designs (i.e, Type-87 is pretty much P90, WS-16 line is the M-16, Soviet A-7 is based on some obscure Russian SMG etc.) I'd go with whichever you want. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-08-17, 21:48	Link #101
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Well, who know? Maybe they innovated the engine or fuel faster than our world!

2013-08-19, 13:14	Link #102
LeoXiao 思想工作 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vereinigte Staaten Age: 31	Africa and America have a lot of resources. But civilian economies would be highly strained. Everyone would have to be very poor to support the military that is depicted, even assuming they found out how to produce TSFs relatively cheaply.

2013-09-17, 07:45	Link #108
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Hey, I've this question: Where would the world get oil from? Middle East and Russia are ruined, so all that left are America (especially Venezuella), Alaska (Really hard to get), On the Bering Sea, e.g. I expect a sharp rise on Oil price due to the little number of remaining site and the hardness in trafficking. But would that lead to something like "Green Economy" and "Green Lifestyle", since we must use everything we have?

2013-09-17, 08:15	Link #111
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Refined fuel? I'm pretty sure that TSF uses the same A-Type fuel for Fighter in our world. Next is the economy. Globalization is over, since the developing countries are down. Also, because this is war, so America famous Car Factories or Japan Media Empire are out of the question. Ration for Civil? We have seen Forced Labour Camp, so that would be another posibility. Lastly, I expected almost every non-military personel to turn into weapon factory worker or agriculture. Oh, and the worst part? We won't have Vodka or Black Beer to knock ourself off.

2013-09-17, 08:29	Link #112
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	I'm pretty sure all fuel is refined. Since you need to refine oil for it to be useful in any way. What grev said makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider that presence of BETA would lead to certain things being developed differently. For example, I can't really see aerial transportation being a very huge part of commerce. Military uses them, but chances are that nobody else does, and most private industries rely on trains and ships, which are less fuel intensive. America, and number of other countries, may also not use classical fuel for energy needs, instead relying on nuclear power plants (as France does today). It's a more reliable choice, especially when you consider that major sources of Uranium - Africa and Australia - are pretty much BETA-free. And there will always be economy, it's just most of it is inward-focused, rather than be export-based, barring food and military industries. I imagine that countries like America, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Brazil etc. are actually pretty close to how they are today. Remember, their citizens are implied to live in relative comfort, enjoying real food and the like. Only citizens in invaded countries or Third World can be expected to live miserable existence, and even then, the rich and the cunning will find a way. For example, Japanese noble families don't look like they're exactly poor. I wonder, how many Shiranuis could you buy with all those golden trinkets Shogun carriers around on her dress uniform? Lastly, the camps are not forced labor camps; it's people taking things out of the context. Yuuko and others imply that conditions are not great, but they're not flat out concentration camp level. I bet that most refugees don't even have to work. But it's that most of them - being European middle-class (at least in case of America),are used to a certain standard of living. Americans can't provide it, because then they'd have to explain to their taxpayers why they have to pay for other people who don't work. That leaves refugees with two options - work in factory, or sign-up with US military. For anything else, you need US citizenship. Russia probably does use forced labor, but it's the fucking USSR. There's a reason why a lot of Warsaw Pact troops just let BETA Chomp Eastern Block. __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-09-17, 09:10	Link #113
grevierr The Lovable SuBiTA Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sleeping in Yokohama base, Section 9.	Just to add on to what I mentioned, in 1973, the BETA landed, and by 1974 30% of the population is dead. By 1995 50% are gone. So thats 30 years of fuel not being wasted. Add to the fact that the world would have been on a war footing, which means research and technology development would be geared towards efficiency. Considering that a fuel cell powers a TSF, with fuel mainly being needed only for the jump units, I would say that they would have an highly efficient energy source right there. So fuel would be the least of their worries. And yes, for the countries fighting on the front lines (the Eastern Hemisphere), all available manpower male and female above the age of 14 gets drafted, and production and agriculture, basically any previously civilian job, would have been taken over by the military. See the history of the US War Economy in WW2 for an example of how it would go. There are labor camps according to Schwarzemarken in the 1980s, but that is only for dissenters against the Communist regime. Otherwise there are the Refugee camps, which may be drawn upon for human resource in factories, if they are lucky. They might starve otherwise, depending on how corrupt the UN forces responsible for distribution relief supplies are (See Africa). America would be the last place for the economy to be affected, so their culture would roughly be the closest to what we have IRL. __________________ When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt. Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.

2013-09-17, 10:43	Link #114
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Not all the oil is gone; tere's the North Sea, and South East asia; there's oilfields off Brunei and Sarawak, natural gas at Sabah, more oil off Terengganu... __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-09-17, 10:54	Link #115
Alastor Mobius Toth Idar Lead Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: World Marshall bureau	Plus, the governments may be less concerned about the profit margin. They are already making money off war, so it's not really unfeasible for America to build oil rigs in the Arctic, or nib those oil sands in Canada, which justifying the expenses under "defense spending tab". __________________ Let the world fear us all. It's just means to an end. Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.

2013-09-17, 15:58	Link #116
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Hey, what would you guys do when you were ordered a Laserjard, but encountered a Phalanx-formation BETA group with the Laser on middle, surrounded by Grappler and Destroyer? Also, wouldn't we have War Bond in US?

2013-09-27, 22:44	Link #117
wavehawk Some say I'm the Reverse Join Date: Jul 2006	Question: How strict are the Royal Guards with the coloration of their Takemis? The Type-00A is white-colored and piloted by descendants of Samurai Families, while the Type-00C is normally a gunmetal/black/grey-ish color for normal pilots. Is it possible for a Type-00C to be painted in white? Or is the rule too strict? __________________ "We haven't been properly introduced..."

2013-09-27, 23:11	Link #119
wavehawk Some say I'm the Reverse Join Date: Jul 2006	I knew it had to do with their status, but I didn't think the coloration was solely for rank. It's only the Royal Guard that do this in the ML-verse, I think? Or am I missing something else? I do know that UN Shiranui and IJA Shiranui have differing color schemes but does that have anything to do with this? I'm just wonder what I can and can't do with TSFs (for various reasons) __________________ "We haven't been properly introduced..."

2013-09-27, 23:21	Link #120
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Thinking about it similar to the Zeon. Remember that we both have Char and Johnny who use Red? But BETA don't discriminate with color, you know. By the end of the day, all matter are their filled stomach.