The H.264/AVC/MPEG4 discussion thread

[LytHka]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...tainer_formats

According to that article, VFR in MP4 is possible. How it can be done I don't know. But I wanted to mention that link for something else and that is Matroska's ownage. It certainly owns pretty much any media container out there, so why isn't it accepted by the true fansubbing community? I think there's a pretty easy answer for that one:

In our community there are a lot more people than on the dark side of it and people always take what looks good, what is well introduced to them. In the end, they take what's more familliar to them. AVI is lasting because it's a Microsoft product and MP4 will probably take the lead because the file ending looks similar to "MP3" and because it's promoted as an "industry standard." As much as that sounds idiotic I think that is the case. Matroska's image is just unappealing and scrutinized by the DVD ripping community (no matter how much they've contributed to its development). I think I can safely say that it's not just me that the first thing I think about is "DVD rippers" and "evil" when I hear "Matroska" or "MKV." Now, who's to blame for that...

The other part I wanted to say is that even though Matroska pretty much owns every other container format we, the true fansubbing community, have no need for its features and we'll gladly accept something more appealing over something that has a scrutinized image. The only ones who can repair its image is the DVD rippers themselves and I guess some of them from ex. LunarAnime are already doing it.

[Mentar]

Lythka, whenever I see _your_ little face speak for "us, the true fansub community" full of pathos, I need to suppress my laughter ... like all of us, you're just one very tiny lightbulb on the anime christmas tree, and not a very bright one to boot. How about you speak for yourself instead of everybody?

It's certainly not your bigotry or naming conventions which are obstacles on the way to more mkv adaption, it's convenience. Many people simply prefer to stick with what they know, and know to work without effort. Most of the groups adhering to mkv are nice enough to offer an avi compatibility version to give people more time to switch. Even then, most releases downloads are around 25-30% mkv already. Once these groups decide to announce only to support mkv (or mp4) from then on, you'll be stunned how quickly people will learn to adapt.

This kind of "mkv is evil because evil people use it, you need to cleanse it first" nonsense reminds me very much of babble from religious zealots ... it tends to take a while for reason to spread, but I'm confident that it will. Just a matter of time.

[LytHka]

Still shining bright. BTW, I don't think most encoders are idiots, at least the ones I know, so why are they using MP4 instead of MKV?

[Mentar]

And - seperate from that - a word about VFR in MP4. There was a reason to talk about _true_ VFR support, and that can't be done properly, at least not yet.

This is the relevant thread in regards to what can be done how, and this is only a very reduced subset of vfr.

True vfr implies the ability to freely render frames whenever you see fit, simply by giving frames a designated timecode. The method described for MP4 right now is primarily based on removing dupes - but while this is one possible aspect of vfr, that's not really it.

I'm not proficient enough with the MP4 definition to say whether or not TRUE vfr will eventually be attainable in MP4, but I can say for sure that right now, with the current toolset of choice, it's not.

[DryFire]

Originally Posted by LytHka

I think I can safely say that it's not just me that the first thing I think about is "DVD rippers" and "evil" when I hear "Matroska" or "MKV." Now, who's to blame for that...

Umm... anyone who adopts such an irrational line of reasoning?

Just because something can be used for "evil" doesn't mean it's the only use. It's up the the people who create the file to determine its use. Every container could be used by the "evil dvd rippers," but they seemed to have chosen mkv as the one that meets their needs; that doesn't automatically discount it as a great for fansubs (perhaps the opposite).

Just think that most of the things fansubbers use were heavily developed, for the most part, by DVD and CD rippers.

IMO no group should cater to such idiocy.

Also seeing as many leechers refer to mkv as a codec, I doubt they have the knowledge to even make the connection.

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by DryFire

Also seeing as many leechers refer to mkv as a codec, I doubt they have the knowledge to even make the connection.

... which was exactly my point. The leechers will *want* what is more familliar to them. I just threw in the spits over DVD rippers for fun since i can't really get banned for that on these forums.

[Mentar]

"Most" encoders overall definitely use mkv nowadays. You know, all those evil people not adhering to your world view, they tip the scales against your favor.

Even if you reduce your view purely to the "normal" fansub world, MKV still has the slight numerical advantage over MP4. If you don't believe this, run some checks on evul evul places. Heck, even on Animesuki itself, you'll find more groups listed with mkv right now

The thing is, I'm not even that much opposed to it. For normal hardsubs based on TV captures, MP4 is a perfectly valid choice - especially for those groups who don't want to have their scripts demuxable. Nothing wrong with that. As long as it's clear WHY it was chosen. And I'll tell you a secret, it's not because of your bigotry

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Originally Posted by Mentar

The thing is, I'm not even that much opposed to it. For normal hardsubs based on TV captures, MP4 is a perfectly valid choice - especially for those groups who don't want to have their scripts demuxable. Nothing wrong with that. As long as it's clear WHY it was chosen. And I'll tell you a secret, it's not because of your bigotry

Well, if your source is nativelly VFR, then it would be insane to use MP4 over MKV - it would simply be stupid biasing, or plain incompetence. For other hardsubbed cases, it doesn't really matter much. And neither mkv nor mp4 is familiar to the average leecher, and both are split by the same filter, so that's not really an argument, either.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

Well, if your source is nativelly VFR, then it would be insane to use MP4 over MKV - it would simply be stupid biasing, or plain incompetence. For other hardsubbed cases, it doesn't really matter much. And neither mkv nor mp4 is familiar to the average leecher, and both are split by the same filter, so that's not really an argument, either.

Correct, that's why I wrote about normal hardsubs based on TV captures. Even if you give them pseudo-vfr 120fps sources, I doubt that more than maybe a dozen of active fansub encoders worldwide would know how to convert this source into a proper VFR release, and much less of them would actually bother to invest the effort. With DVDs it would be much simpler (and several dozens encoders are known to possess the skills), but that's already borderline "evil" territory

The thing is that probably 90% of the anime watchers wouldn't even be able to tell a vfr from a normal cfr encode if they were shown it on a monitor. For them, it's fairly irrelevant. Not all encoders really care for things enough to invest the time for the remaining 10%. Most of the really good ones do, however.

[DryFire]

For the familiarity argument it seems mkv would win in the long termbecause it supports more then mp4 does. Also I believe they could add more support to say mkv v3 so a container switch may be a long time coming.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Besides, on the standalone decoder argument, there are no h.264 decoders available yet, and I suspect that they will support mkv and maybe even avi when they do support mp4 in data discs. After all, my mother's DVD (+MPEG4 ASP) player even supports .ASS subs (of course, it strips formatting), showing that they DO care for "unofficial" standards.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Correct, that's why I wrote about normal hardsubs based on TV captures. Even if you give them pseudo-vfr 120fps sources, I doubt that more than maybe a dozen of active fansub encoders worldwide would know how to convert this source into a proper VFR release, and much less of them would actually bother to invest the effort. With DVDs it would be much simpler (and several dozens encoders are known to possess the skills), but that's already borderline "evil" territory

The thing is that probably 90% of the anime watchers wouldn't even be able to tell a vfr from a normal cfr encode if they were shown it on a monitor. For them, it's fairly irrelevant. Not all encoders really care for things enough to invest the time for the remaining 10%. Most of the really good ones do, however.

Just for the record, _I_ know how to do a proper vfr encode from a 120 fps raw (hell I know two ways), and I'm not even a real encoder . But actually there's a sticky point here in that:
I'll find that 120 fps raw doesn't mean that the show was hybrid, because to cappers, 120 fps is "hip" and "high tech", so sometimes they'll do 120 fps just to make their raws look cooler. Also, you're at the mercy of the capper when it comes to film/video detection, since that has already been done in the creation of the 120 raw (i.e. which frames are n-ops). So depending on the tools the capper uses, things might be just as jerky and crappy as if you simply decimated the thing in a stupid way.

Ever since I started looking into this stuff, I've began noticing all the hybrid problems in some fansub encodes... jerkiness, etc... But I know almost no one notices this. Hell, I never used to notice this till I trained myself to look for these things. Kind of like fine-timing .

You also have to consider something that is driving a lot of you here: For the "bad guys", and let's not mince words, DVD encoders, there is a perfectly logical culture of perfection. For them, there is competition, not among titles so much, but among encoding quality, for the simple reason that THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. (yeah, a few groups clean up subtitles a bit, or have different font choices.... but those are secondary). So because that's the only big difference in groups, that's where the "striving for perfection" aspect shows itself.

In fansubs, there's a lot more to it, no offense. Encoding is simply one part of a series of steps. So the singular emphasis of quality in that one area is lessened. That doesn't mean fansubbers care less about their product, it just means that they care less about that particular part of their product. It's unfair to complain that fansub groups don't release mkv vfr encodes of the shows, just because it's possible to. I'm sure they aren't doing it out of spite, or hatred (well, there are a few, but... ) they are simply doing the best job they can with the resources they have. And oftentimes encoding is secondary to things like translation or timing. And guess what: It should be.
In my humble opinion, the LEAST imporant job in fansubbing is encoding, with typesetting a close second. It takes very few skills to do an minimally acceptable job of these, and if you have a choice between that and translation or editing (or even qcing), to me the choice is clear. So don't blame fansubbers for putting their priorities in the right place.

[Sylf]

on MKV having bad connotation among fansubbers - a bit of OT story
A few years ago, my friend and I started a small business. We thought of a name for the business, and we asked for opinions about that name from people we knew. People didn't think the name was not good, just because the word carried bad image. The word itself does not mean anything negative, but just because of one movie that gave the word a bad connotation, people strongly advised us to come up with another name.

Yes, the word, or format, by itself may not be a bad thing. Personally, I know that MKV is a very capable container. But that does not mean that I would suggest MKV as the container for the projects I'm involved in. If the general audience doesn't feel comfortable with MKV, then I won't push it too strongly - to me, both MKV and MP4 are damn good.

Now, I took my technological comparison from another angle - chapter support. While watching a fansub release in AVC/MKV of Shana by certain some group, I noticed they put chapters to it. I knew about the MKV's chapter support from before, but this was the first time I've really encountered it. I've really had very small exposure to MKV so far. I also rememebered reading about the chapter support in MP4, and mp4box can implement it.

After further reading, I found out that mp4's chapter support is something that Nero has tucked on outside of the ISO regulation. The support may be spotty at best. And I ran my simple test. I took F-B's My Santa, made a chapter file quickly, and re-muxed it with mp4box/yamb. Then compared the chapter support of different players with both Shana (MKV) and My Santa (mp4).

MPlayer - I didn't read too much in to the documentation, but I didn't find any chapter support for neither format
VLC - Chapters are supported for MKV, but not MP4
Zoom Player Standard - same as VLC
WMP 9 - No chapter support whatsoever
WMP 6.4 - Chapter support for both formats
MPC - Chapter support for both formats.

I find the comparison between two WMP versions to be ironic, but that's totally something irrelavant here, besides the fact that recent WMP's are evil. The chapter support for MP4 is still very spotty. If I want to use that feature in the future (which I'm really thinking about), then MKV makes far more sense. At the same time, I'm torn because of the reason I stated above.

I don't have a strong point to make in this post. I just wanted to share some viewpoint and a small frustration I found from an experiment I did today.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Sylf made a rather relevant observation. Far many times, when I'm watching a fansub of an anime whose opening/ending I dislike, I find myself hitting the Page Down key in an attempt to skip it. Page Down is the "next chapter" key in MPC, and since every KAA/ZX/A-L anime has proper chapters around opening/ending, I can simply skip those with a keypress, without losing anything.

I wish fansubs were the same.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Sylf

I don't have a strong point to make in this post. I just wanted to share some viewpoint and a small frustration I found from an experiment I did today.

Yeah, I did a similar experiment about a month ago. Chapters basically don't work in mp4 right now. Then again, chapter support is one of those things that doesn't matter.
In this case, actually, chapter support would be useful. But the problem is no one would use it . Most fansub watchers don't even know WHERE to jump to chapters would be at all. If they had to go to some menu or something in their player, they'd have no clue. so your awesomely useful chapters would go unused by 90% of watchers.
On the other hand, if you were to make a DVD like menu using super fancy XML mp4 scripting, and force people to use Osmo player... then again, who am I kidding...

Actually, chapters are only really useful when it comes to movies. In a 30 minute tv show, the chapters are obvious anyway. Halfway, opening, and ending. All of which you can guess pretty accurately based on the timeline anyway.

Edit: Archmage: I bet you and a bunch of other KAA rip watchers know that hot key. And about 10 Naruto downloaders.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Quarkboy, I realize that not many people know about chapters, but many people would be pleased to know that they can skip openings and endings with a single keypress, precisely.

Besides, doing chapters is usually very trivial. Most animes have 5 chapters per episode (opening, first half of episode, second half, ending, preview). Some monster animes can go much higher, though.... this is the chapter file that I have used for School Rumble episode 04:

CHAPTER01=00:00:00.000
CHAPTER01NAME=Eyecatch - Start
CHAPTER02=00:00:05.005
CHAPTER02NAME=Watch TV in a bright room from a Distance
CHAPTER03=00:00:18.018
CHAPTER03NAME=Opening
CHAPTER04=00:01:48.024
CHAPTER04NAME=Opening - Captions
CHAPTER05=00:01:58.076
CHAPTER05NAME=Pigs go Boo Boo!
CHAPTER06=00:08:11.032
CHAPTER06NAME=Cats go Nyaa~!
CHAPTER07=00:17:58.536
CHAPTER07NAME=Frogs and Kappa go GAGAGA!
CHAPTER08=00:21:44.971
CHAPTER08NAME=Ending
CHAPTER09=00:23:04.968
CHAPTER09NAME=Preview
CHAPTER10=00:23:19.899
CHAPTER10NAME=Preview - Captions
CHAPTER11=00:23:29.909
CHAPTER11NAME=Eyecatch - End

(yes, all episodes have 11 chapters)

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Sylf

MPlayer - I didn't read too much in to the documentation, but I didn't find any chapter support for neither format

MPlayer supports Matroska chapters via the -chapter option (which is marked as being DVD only in the man page). I'm not sure about support for nested chapters, though. Never tested this. To the best of my knowledge MP4 chapters aren't supported.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Oh, another interesting feature of Matroska lies in linked chapters, which lets several different files act as one... For example (and there are a few of those floating around), if you encode a movie as a 1400 MB mkv and split it with MMG, the two segments will be merged. That means that you can either play each separately, or you can play both on same folder (with original name, obviously) and play first. It will behave as if it was a single, unsplit file.

This can have other uses, such as creating a dummy .mkv that plays an entire anime all at once, or making opening and ending a separate file and having all files 'recycle' it (not that I would do such a thing, it's just not elegant IMO )

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

You also have to consider something that is driving a lot of you here: For the "bad guys", and let's not mince words, DVD encoders, there is a perfectly logical culture of perfection. For them, there is competition, not among titles so much, but among encoding quality, for the simple reason that THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. (yeah, a few groups clean up subtitles a bit, or have different font choices.... but those are secondary). So because that's the only big difference in groups, that's where the "striving for perfection" aspect shows itself.

Those times have been over for more than a year, Quarkboy. "That's all there is to it" is something I could chuckle at, because in truth, "that" is alot. Nowadays basically all leading dvd groups have formed contacts to the fansub world, and so the boundaries are getting blurry. Also, there are enough examples where DVD groups invest just as much time and effort in typesetting as fansub groups. But the competition between the dvd groups, which was fierce 2 years ago, has changed into a fairly cooperative atmosphere. It's less about being the leader of the pack, but more about producing the highest possible quality now. This is different to the fansub world, where alot (too much) emphasis is being laid on download numbers.

In fansubs, there's a lot more to it, no offense. Encoding is simply one part of a series of steps. So the singular emphasis of quality in that one area is lessened. That doesn't mean fansubbers care less about their product, it just means that they care less about that particular part of their product.

A qualified "Yes, but" to that. Well, I've got several years of experiences in both worlds, around 4-5 in dvd encoding and 1-2 in fansub circles. In most cases (not in all, but in most), you have team settings, and so work is spread out over many different people. And normally, the encoder tends to have not THAT much more extra work to do. QC, usually (like in the DVD world). Sometimes typesetting (like there aswell), sometimes editing and timing etc. But it's not like fansubbing is THAT much more complex for him that there's no time for efforts.

For a long time, the fansub world had a fairly snobbish attitude towards the "evil guys" ... and - forgive this little stab - its efforts in the encoding sector were fairly poor. Which is why most of the new developments in the encoding sector were spearheaded by the DVD world. And the influx of originally DVD people as encoders in the fansub world has played a key role in the quality improvements we've been able to witness over the last years.

It's unfair to complain that fansub groups don't release mkv vfr encodes of the shows, just because it's possible to. I'm sure they aren't doing it out of spite, or hatred (well, there are a few, but... ) they are simply doing the best job they can with the resources they have. And oftentimes encoding is secondary to things like translation or timing. And guess what: It should be.

I disagree here. The "strive for perfection" bit should be valid for each complex, be it timing, translating, editing etc... but that's up for everybody else to decide. Personally, I couldn't care less if the episode was scenetimed or not. And I also am less insistent on word-exact translations as long as the meaning isn't distorted. But as I said, this is very much personal preference.

In my humble opinion, the LEAST imporant job in fansubbing is encoding, with typesetting a close second. It takes very few skills to do an minimally acceptable job of these, and if you have a choice between that and translation or editing (or even qcing), to me the choice is clear. So don't blame fansubbers for putting their priorities in the right place.

In my most humble opinion, there's no such thing as "right priorities" when it comes to fansubbing. It's a team effort and no complex should be handled sloppily. What's the point of having a great TL and good timing if the typesetting and encoding is shoddy? Naaah, this is not about assigning priorities. The reluctance to adopt h.264 had other roots (trust me, I got to learn about them all too well)

1) Basically all groups are worried that they will lose downloads if they switch. Therefore, new formats are endangering their user base more (initially) than the better quality would attract new viewers.

2) Most groups are worried about having their scripts "stolen". Therefore, they are very reluctant to softsub their works.

3) The encoders of most fansub groups were inexperienced in the new technologies, and not exactly burning to learn something new.

This "what's more important" really makes me chuckle. The most precious commodity in my opinion is the translator: The top ones are especially rare, and without them you can't start (or only go with DVD subs). The next highest priority are hi-quality typesetters. If you want to shoot for excellence, you need them, but only few are good enough to make their signs blend into the video so that you don't realize that signs were added. And then come editors, timers, QCs and encoders on more or less the same level - there tend to be many of those.

Nevertheless, neglecting one aspect over others isn't natural or reasonable, it's a mistake. IMHO.

[subcool]

Originally Posted by Mentar

So he says. Okay, let's hear it. Which hardware players on the market support your encodes?

Just bout every H.264 hardware player wich supports high profile video will be able to play our encodes :P (and is Mpeg-4 compliant)
Also, owners of ATI Radeon X1000+ series will be able to decode it fine (but thats not container specific i think... not sure)