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Old 2012-11-15, 17:23   Link #31181
Kealym
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...random thought.

I was reading through Natsuhi's trial in the Court of Illusions in EP5, yeah, and I was thinking of the red stating that Kinzo never, ever ever actually trusted Natsuhi, and by all accounts, was just kind of an unsociable dick to her for 20 years.

I was thinking of a what-if that distrust was based on Natsuhi reminding him of his legal wife? Their marriage circumstances were similar - ladies from noble families chosen basically for prestige. And this point in particular is silly, but the only glimpse of Kinzo's wife we ever see (from the EP7 manga ... correct me if I'm wrong) basically looks like Natsuhi with shorter hair and a plainer dress (was that kinda-sorta Victorian look just really popular in postwar Japan or, what? ).

We're told once that the siblings couldn't remember Kinzo being severely upset since the time their mother had died, but,maybe he was never sad to lose her. There are no hints suggesting that Kinzo and his wife fell into a decent relationship, like Kratsuhi did. In fact, based on Mrs. Kinzo's conspicuous absence during the incident with he baby 19 years ago (even though she was DEFINITELY alive during the incident when Rosa met Beatrice II, which had to have been pretty close in the timing), maybe what the siblings witnessed was just Kinzo crying for Beatrice at their mothers funeral or something, since Mrs. Kinzo and Beatrice II probably died around the same time.

Then you get Natsuhi, who seems similarly ... "severe" in her person, I wanna say, but she seems to be getting along rather well with Krauss, which is something his own marriage lacked. He needs to put this suddenly orphaned witch-baby somewhere, so he presents Lion. Cue cliff-pushing/ accident, and maybe to an aging Kinzo it seems like the spirit of his spiteful dead wife made sure to wipe out even the final trace of the mistress she so often suspected.

Well, I'm not saying Mrs. Kinzo possessed Natsuhi or anything, or that Kinzo thought such a thing, but rather that the curious circumstances of it all may account for his decades (doing the math, I believe Natsuhi married into the family in 1958/59, so that's OVER 9000 days of it) of hardwired jerkass. It also makes Natsuhi's strange worship of him (which apparently was almost always there) into some really strange ... I'unno, Stockhol Syndrome stuff.

tl;dr "Kinzo dislikes the woman who ended up reminding him of his wife too much. Chucked the relevant illegitimate baby off a cliff, to boot. NO EYE CONTACT FOR YOU, Natsuhi.

Also, I kinda wanna write an entire forgery where in the magical narrative Beato brings Mrs. Kinzo back to life to haunt the shit out of her kids, and they're all found in their childhood rooms or something. She possesses Natsuhi and uses her ghostly Meta-knowledge to lead Natsuhi to the gold turning her into Natsu-trice and ... I'll stop now.

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-11-15 at 18:41.
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Old 2012-11-15, 18:24   Link #31182
GabrieliosP
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No, continue. And then Natsuhitrice doesn't have a One-winged Eagle Scepter. Then, somehow, she is reduced to only an heart like Beato in EP3 and her heart has the family crest on it.
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Old 2012-11-16, 06:54   Link #31183
Drifloon
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That's really interesting. I've actually always pictured Kinzo's wife as looking like Natsuhi for some reason, even though I haven't seen that EP7 manga page you're talking about.

Regarding the theory I posted earlier, another intriguing contrast I noticed between EP1 and EP2 is the way that the ceremony is presented. In the first episode, it seems like all the victims will be brought back to life in the Golden Land, regardless of the point at which they are sacrificed; even the victims of the first twilight have TIPS messages saying things like "we'll see them again soon" and "everyone will be revived in the Golden Land" and such.

Whereas in EP2, it's repeatedly stated that only five people will get to reach the Golden Land, and the thirteen that are chosen as sacrifices will never get to go there. Not only that, but even the five who do survive end up getting eaten by goats, which is hardly a warm welcome to the Golden Land - and when Rosa actually does reach the Golden Land, she gets tortured there (if the tea party is even part of the story).

In other words: in EP1, Beatrice is performing the murders to bring about her revival, but this will also bring everyone to the Golden Land, so she isn't actually being selfish per se but doing the thing that will bring the most happiness to both herself and the humans.

But in EP2, it seems like she's just manipulating and deceiving the humans into allowing the ceremony to be performed, making false promises about bringing them to the Golden Land when she really hates all of them and just wants to bring about her own revival regardless of the cost it causes to anyone else. Her promise to Maria, to bring her to the Golden Land, doesn't seem to mean anything to her; she leaves her to be eaten by goats and then possibly even eaten again by Rosa. Likewise, even though Kinzo is the one who set up the ceremony and allowed her to be revived, she's not even slightly grateful and abandons him to be eaten by the goats too. Basically Beatrice only makes promises to humans in order to fulfil her own agenda, she doesn't care what happens to them after she's achieved her revival. I think this fits with my previous theory nicely.

Last edited by Drifloon; 2012-11-16 at 07:36.
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Old 2012-11-18, 13:44   Link #31184
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It's strange because in EP3, Shannon and Kanon both said something like if they're being the first of the sacrifices, they won't be in the Golden Land.... but in the same Episode, the Golden Land that Battler and Beato goes to have... everyone?

This goes beyond Yasu depicting something different between her two bottles, this is Tohya depicting something different within one forgery.
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Old 2012-11-18, 13:56   Link #31185
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That's because the Golden Land is a lotus eater machine. The Golden Land has everyone because it's what Battler wants, but is it REALLY THEM?

Especially since Eva was alive.
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Old 2012-11-18, 14:35   Link #31186
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Quote:
This goes beyond Yasu depicting something different between her two bottles, this is Tohya depicting something different within one forgery.
Well, that's not anything particularly mysterious. He's just merging the two versions of the mythology that were present in the two genuine message bottles, consciously or unconsciously. I believe that most Umineko fanfiction takes fantasy elements from various genuine episodes for its fantasy scenes, so it's not surprising that things like that happened in-universe too.
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Old 2012-11-18, 17:11   Link #31187
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It's strange because in EP3, Shannon and Kanon both said something like if they're being the first of the sacrifices, they won't be in the Golden Land.... but in the same Episode, the Golden Land that Battler and Beato goes to have... everyone?

This goes beyond Yasu depicting something different between her two bottles, this is Tohya depicting something different within one forgery.
I think Battler/Toya gave a different interpretation to the episode. You would reach the golden land by solving the epitaph and having the others be revived (or not be killed).

And likely the people Battler saw in the golden land were just an illusion to trick him into recognizing Beato, not his real relatives reaching the real golden land... though that Battler is Meta Battler interacting with Meta people/Meta illusions so it can be the destiny of the Pieces is different? According to the tips only Jessica reached thegolden land after all.
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Old 2012-11-19, 11:26   Link #31188
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In the First Twilight of the first game, all the corpses are found with their faces torn apart. Also, they're found in a room filled with tools that looked like they could tear off a human's face.

Why did the culprit grind up the faces of those corpses?
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Old 2012-11-19, 13:41   Link #31189
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To shock everyone and provide an excuse for the accomplices not to let the children on to the scene, presumably. After all, if the crime scene had been fairly clean, how would Hideyoshi have prevented George from wanting to see Shannon's corpse?

On an unrelated note, I was thinking about this theory earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

Also I went back and reread the discovery scene and found some interesting things. First Krauss states that he didn't hear anything coming from Kinzo's room. Krauss knows Kinzo is dead but he was trying to keep up the appearance of him being alive so Krauss more likely than not would have lied about this saying he heard Kinzo. Another thing though is in order for Yasu's closed room to work the Parlor has to be the first room checked and interestingly enough Krauss suggests they check the Parlor first.

So I think Krauss is an Accomplice in EP3
And I noticed that it can actually make quite a neat pattern between the accomplices in each episode, depending on how you interpret things of course.

EP1: Eva and Hideyoshi as accomplices
EP2: Rosa as an accomplice
EP3: Krauss and Natsuhi as accomplices
EP4: Rudolf and Kyrie as accomplices (The first twilight victims probably weren't killed at the same time the fantasy narrative shows)

Another fun little pattern I found with the siblings:
EP1: Only Eva survives the first twilight
EP2: Only Rosa survives the first twilight
EP3: All survive the first twilight
EP4: Only Krauss survives the first twilight

EP3 is the odd one out. I wonder if Land would have had Rudolf as the only surviving sibling? That would fit Renall's idea of EP3 originally being centered around Battler.
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Old 2012-11-19, 20:39   Link #31190
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In the First Twilight of the first game, all the corpses are found with their faces torn apart. Also, they're found in a room filled with tools that looked like they could tear off a human's face.

Why did the culprit grind up the faces of those corpses?
I think the answer is given in Our confession when Beato shots the first group of victims and then says

Quote:
So that bullet holes are not discovered, whole chunks of their bodies are destroyed.
I guess in EP 1 and 2 the first victims were killed by shooting at them but, in order for the thing not to be noticed, she torn apart the bodies.

In Ep 3 though she couldn't do it as she was one of the victims. Plus in EP 3 we start to get hints on how guns were involved in the killing (the Siesta, more guns available, people clearly killed by a gun)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
And I noticed that it can actually make quite a neat pattern between the accomplices in each episode, depending on how you interpret things of course.

EP1: Eva and Hideyoshi as accomplices
EP2: Rosa as an accomplice
EP3: Krauss and Natsuhi as accomplices
EP4: Rudolf and Kyrie as accomplices (The first twilight victims probably weren't killed at the same time the fantasy narrative shows)

Another fun little pattern I found with the siblings:
EP1: Only Eva survives the first twilight
EP2: Only Rosa survives the first twilight
EP3: All survive the first twilight
EP4: Only Krauss survives the first twilight

EP3 is the odd one out. I wonder if Land would have had Rudolf as the only surviving sibling? That would fit Renall's idea of EP3 originally being centered around Battler.
Actually in EP 1 Natsuhi also survived and in EP 4 Kyrie also survived. Or are you not counting the wifes of the siblings as 'survivors'?

Though I would say Natsuhi was an accomplice in EP 1 too, although she likely had no idea Eva was an accomplice as well.
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Old 2012-11-19, 21:12   Link #31191
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Drifloon was only counting the siblings. Because... you know... the rest of the children survived the first twilight in EP1-4....

It's interesting... so for the most part, there may have been an "out of the siblings only would have survived the first twilight."

However, I don't completely think it's alright, because in Eva's case of EP1, she dies right after the first twilight during the second, and then she has a bigger role in EP3.

Although his speculation about Land is interesting, I wonder what it would mean as a whole. What kind of meaning does a non-existant Episode give?
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Old 2012-11-19, 21:19   Link #31192
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A more interesting pattern is that only one mother survives until the end or nearly the end.

EP1: Natsuhi dies at the very end. Rosa and Kyrie die FT, Eva dies ST.
EP2: Rosa is alive at the end. The other three die FT.
EP3: Eva survives. Each other mother dies in a separate incident.
EP4: Kyrie is apparently alive toward the end, at least long enough to report on the supposed deaths of most everyone else.
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Old 2012-11-19, 21:25   Link #31193
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Though I would say Natsuhi was an accomplice in EP 1 too, although she likely had no idea Eva was an accomplice as well.
Random thought: In EP1, after the FT is discovered, Natsuhi and Eva go to talk to Kinzo, alone. Two women going alone when a supposed murderer is loose; as capable as Eva might be, it doesn't seem to be a very good idea for them to do so. I think Natsuhi actually asks to go alone at first, only to have Eva offer to follow.

Doesn't this suggest that they know they're not in danger for some reason? Or are they just not thinking? Or am I just missing something?
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Old 2012-11-20, 11:23   Link #31194
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think the answer is given in Our confession when Beato shots the first group of victims and then says

I guess in EP 1 and 2 the first victims were killed by shooting at them but, in order for the thing not to be noticed, she torn apart the bodies.

In Ep 3 though she couldn't do it as she was one of the victims. Plus in EP 3 we start to get hints on how guns were involved in the killing (the Siesta, more guns available, people clearly killed by a gun)...
That's true, and it works fine as a way to hide that she's using a gun (although with 6 people killed at once, it'd still be natural to think that a weapon like a gun was used).

However, as for making the murders look magical, this has the opposite effect. Anyone looking at the crime scene would jump to the conclusion that those tools were used to damage the faces, and in fact, those tools probably were used. The correct, very non-magical answer is staring us in the face. If the corpses were found in literally any other location, we'd have a very bizarre mystery on our hands. Instead, we've got some strong evidence that the culprit couldn't rely on magic even to smash a few faces on already-dead corpses.
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Old 2012-11-20, 12:08   Link #31195
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Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
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Old 2012-11-20, 12:16   Link #31196
Renall
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Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
That was my joke video. It doesn't actually matter how Kanon could stop existing as long as he could (and, apparently, he could).
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Old 2012-11-20, 14:22   Link #31197
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Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
Not only in your video, Renall, but also in this thread (i think), somebody mentioned that in the meta scene, Erika threw some blue stakes at the cabinet, that could represent bullets.
BTW, is there a general consensus on the number of guns in the island? Because if I recall correctly, there should be 4+ usable guns, because in EP3 each of the siblings wields one, plus the one Yasu could have, but i could be wrong.
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Old 2012-11-20, 14:34   Link #31198
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Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
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Old 2012-11-20, 15:16   Link #31199
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Klarth View Post
Random thought: In EP1, after the FT is discovered, Natsuhi and Eva go to talk to Kinzo, alone. Two women going alone when a supposed murderer is loose; as capable as Eva might be, it doesn't seem to be a very good idea for them to do so. I think Natsuhi actually asks to go alone at first, only to have Eva offer to follow.

Doesn't this suggest that they know they're not in danger for some reason? Or are they just not thinking? Or am I just missing something?
I forget the specifics of this scene, but to be fair, the survivors split up like this literally ALL THE TIME. Natsuhi, also, has to maintain the illusion of Kinzo, which includes checking for his location/safety, but you also wouldnt want other people around for that.

Erika makes a joke about in EP5, and as you say, it's almost always a bad idea. People are free to make poor decisions, after all,I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
I think it's an unnecessary detail (but then, I don't know much about guns), but Our Confessions does mention Shannon having a handgun of some sort, which was used in her own death towards the end. I SUPPOSE it could explain the different types of wounds we see throughout the games, and it would be a weapon that's much more easily concealed than the winchesters.

I'd say there are only 4 winchesters, though, because there's been no hint that there were more. If there were, surely EVERY adult would have been given one, in EP3, right?
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Old 2012-11-20, 15:29   Link #31200
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That's true, and it works fine as a way to hide that she's using a gun (although with 6 people killed at once, it'd still be natural to think that a weapon like a gun was used).

However, as for making the murders look magical, this has the opposite effect. Anyone looking at the crime scene would jump to the conclusion that those tools were used to damage the faces, and in fact, those tools probably were used. The correct, very non-magical answer is staring us in the face. If the corpses were found in literally any other location, we'd have a very bizarre mystery on our hands. Instead, we've got some strong evidence that the culprit couldn't rely on magic even to smash a few faces on already-dead corpses.
In the tales no one seems to notice it much.
I mean, if two servants were to tell me that my grandfather summoned demons that killed some of my relatives and made others fall in pitfalls that magically appeared first I would think they're joking then I would check if they took drugs.

Yet, Battler and Co swallowed this lie effortlessly.

One matter is facing something odd you can't explain (the door was closed and yet the culprit managed to get in and out) and another is being told an obvious fairly tale and accept it as true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klarth View Post
Random thought: In EP1, after the FT is discovered, Natsuhi and Eva go to talk to Kinzo, alone. Two women going alone when a supposed murderer is loose; as capable as Eva might be, it doesn't seem to be a very good idea for them to do so. I think Natsuhi actually asks to go alone at first, only to have Eva offer to follow.

Doesn't this suggest that they know they're not in danger for some reason? Or are they just not thinking? Or am I just missing something?
I think Ep 1 is similar to Ep 5. It's possible Eva is an accomplice but, as in Ep 5, she thought the deaths were being faked and that took part to this in the belief Kinzo was dead, in order to force Natsuhi to admit it (though I always have a hard time thinking they didn't realize Krauss and Co were dead...).

Natsuhi on the other time, might be under blackmail like in Ep 5.

This would make them both work for Yasu but not being accomplices with each other.

In Ep 5 too, despite being told Krauss had been kidnapped and that people had been killed Natsuhi wandered through the house on her own so I guess she can do it even in EP 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
Ep 8 chap 8 manga version seems to imply 5 as it shows 1 M1897, 1 M9410 and 3 M1894. There's to say I can't read Chinese and Kinzo is also holding one in his hands so they could be more (I'm not sure if the gun Kinzo was holding was included in the count or not... I think not though). The one Kinzo hold is pretty short so I think it was the gun Yasu used as it's easier to hide it.

Kinzo explains how they work (it seems the bullet contains many little balls so that when you shoot 1 bullet you're actually shooting many little balls) so there can be the solution of a trick here but without a translation I can't figure out more than what the pictures show.

However I think the manga is reliable in implying there were at least 5 guns.

Do we have a gun expert that can tell us more about the guns used?
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