[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[theacefrehley]

Anti-mystery x Anti-fantasy:

Spoiler:

アンチミステリーとアンチファンタジーについて
Regarding Anti-mystery and Anti-fantasy
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　竜騎士０７

　今回のEP3では、裏ジャケットのキャッチコピーであった“推理は可能か不可能か”を新しく“アンチミス テリーvsアンチファンタジー”に変えてみました。
In EP3 of this time, I tried to change the catch copy phrase at the back cover, 'is reasoning possible or impossible', to 'anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy.

　今回のEP3を終えられた方は既にお判りだと思いますが、『うみねこのなく頃に』の世界観は、まさにこの キャッチコピーの通りです。
I think it's already comprehensible to those who have finished this EP3 but, the world view of 'Umineko no Naku Koro Ni' goes just as this catch copy.

　さて、ミステリーやファンタジーならばよくお聞きもする単語でしょうが、アンチミステリー、アンチファン タジーになると、余りお耳にされる機会もないと思います。
　アンチとはどのような概念なのか。
それをここに駄文にて書き連ねたいと思います。
Well, mystery and fantasy are probably words you hear oftenly but, when it comes to and anti-mystery and anti-fantasy, I think there are not much chances for it to be heard.
What would be the general ideas behind 'anti'?
That's what I'd humbly like to enumerate here.

　アンチファンタジーについては、特に語ることもないでしょう。
　私たちの住まうこの世界には、ファンタジーなど有り得ません。
どんな空想のおとぎ話も所詮は創作。
実在が信じられたとしても、それは何かの誇張か、政治的な作話に過ぎません。
Regarding anti-fantasy, probably there isn't anything special to talk about.
In this world we live, fantasy and such are impossible.
No matter what kind of fancy fairy-tale it is, in the end, they are just a work of fiction.
Even if it is realistic, they have exaggerations in some things and are only politcal and made-up stories.

　まさかあなたは本気で、地球が創造主によって７日で作られたと信じているわけですか？イザナギノミコトが 矛でついて日本列島を生み出したと本気で…？
　そんなの、ビッグバンと隕石と隕石の結合、そしてプレートの干渉による陸地の隆起で説明できるに決まって いるじゃありませんか。
Don't you tell me that you seriously believe that Earth was made in 7 days by the Creator? Or that Izanagi-no-Mikoto (see wikipedia) created the Japanese islands with his spear...? it's obvious that we can explain those with the combination of the big-bang with meteorites and the rising of lands by means of the interference of the (tectonic) plates, huh.


　日本史や世界史の授業中に、堂々とそうだと主張できる方は、ようこそ初めまして“アンチファンタジー”の 世界へ。
　信じちゃいないけど、空気は読める方なので、表向きは信じてるフリをしている方々も、どうぞいらっしゃい ませ“アンチファンタジー”の世界へ。
To the ones who are able to openly declare that during the classes of Japan history and world history, be welcome, I present you the world of the 'anti-fantasy'.
The people who pretend to believe those things to keep the appearances, for being able to read the atmosphere, even though they don't believe it, too, please, be welcome to the world of 'anti-fantasy'.


　魔女も魔法もあるわけがない。
全ては推理で真実を暴きだせる。
そう信じる方がほとんどのはずです。
　“アンチファンタジー” 。
つまりそれは、私たちの基本フォーマットであり、常識なのです。
There's no way witches and magic do exist.
In everything, we can expose the truth through reasoning.
Most of people should believe that.
'Anti-fantasy'.
In other words, that is our basic format, the common sense.

　そんなあなたたちは『うみねこのなく頃に』で屈服することはあり得ますまい。
　だって、魔女も魔法もあるわけ、ないのですから。
You guys would never surrender to 'Umineko no Naku Koro Ni'.
Because there's no way witches and magic do exist.

　そんな至極当然の“アンチファンタジー”の説明はこれくらいにして、いよいよ“アンチミステリー”につい て、お話を始めましょう。
Such an extremely natural explanation for 'anti-fantasy' ends here and finally let's start to talk about the 'anti-mystery'.

　まず、アンチミステリーを語る前に、ミステリーについて語らなければなりません。
　ミステリーとは何ぞや、を語るには、このような薄い冊子ではとてもページが足りません。
ですので、ここでは非常にシンプルに話を進めたいと思います。
First, before talking about anti-mystery, we have to talk about the mystery.
To talk about what is a mystery, a thin booklet like this wouldn't have enough pages.
Because of that, I'd like to advance the talk in an extremely simple way here.

　基本的に“ミステリー”と語った場合、これは“本格ミステリー”のことを指します。
　乱暴なまでに簡単に説明すれば、本格ミステリーとは、作中で説明された情報によって、劇中の回答を待たず に読者が正答可能なものを指します。
Basically, when we say 'mystery', this points out to the 'authentic mystery'.
To explain it in a rough and yet simple way, the classical mystery denominates something where it's possible for the reader to reach the correct answer through the information exposed in the middle of the story, without waiting for the 'in-play' answers.

　これこそがミステリーの本流であり、まさに“本格”と冠するに相応しいでしょう。
それは読み物であると同時に、筆者と読者の知恵比べでもあるわけです。
その意味において、本格ミステリーとは、あらゆる小説ジャンルの中でもっともゲーム性が高いものであること が理解できると思います。
This is the main idea of the mystery and certainly it is appropriate to name it 'authentic'.
It means that at the same time it is a reading material, it is also an intelligence contest between the writer and the reader.
In that sense, I think it is possible to understand an authentic mystery as being the one genre that looks the most like a game among all novel genres.

　つまり、高度な本格ミステリーとは徹底的に算数的なパズルゲームであるべきなのです。
　そしてそれは著名な作家の数々の名作によって、高度に昇華されていったはずでした。
　しかし昇華された本格ミステリーは、やがてある問題に行き当たります。
　それが有名な難問、『後期クイーン問題』というものです。
In other words, a high-grade authentic mystery should be a complete arithmetic puzzle game.
And this fact should have been sublimated in high-grade by means of the many masterpieces of the famous writers.
However, a sublimated authentic mystery soon runs into a certain problem.
That is a difficult and famous problem, called 'last part queen problem'.

　「後期クイーン問題」とは非常に簡単に説明すると、探偵（読者）の知り得てる情報が“全て”であるとの証 明が自身には不可能である、というものです。
　優れた探偵は、与えられた証拠・ヒント全てをふんだんに使い、非常に優れた推理や合理的見解を導き出すで しょう。
しかし、その推理が正解であるためにはひとつの前提が必要となります。
Explaining it in an extremely simply way, the 'last part queen problem' says it is impossible to prove by oneself that the information that the detective (reader) is able to know is 'everything' there is to it.
A great detective would probably use all the hints and evidences given to him and produce brilliant deductions and logical views.
However, it's necessary one prerequisite so that his deduction is correct.

　それは、探偵が吟味した証拠・ヒントが“全て揃って”いなければならないということです。
　多くの場合、探偵は現場を徹底的に吟味し、あらゆる証拠、ヒントを見つけ出して列挙します。
しかしです。
“探偵がいまだ見つけていない決定的な証拠X”の存在を否定することはできません。
　つまり、名探偵がどのような優れた名推理を見せたとしても、それは“その時点での証拠・ヒントからの構築 ”に過ぎません。
つまり、もしも未発見の決定的な証拠Ｘが加味されたなら、探偵が導き出した推理が根底から引っ繰り返る可能 性が常に否定できないのです。
And that would be to say that the all evidences and hints investigated by the detective must be 'complete'.
In most cases, the detective thoroughly investigates the scene of the crime, finds all the evidences and hints and then lists them.
However.
We can't deny the existence of a 'conclusive evidence X that the detective did not find yet'.
In other words, no matter what kind of brilliant deduction the great detective reached, that would be nothing more than a 'construction from evidences and hits at that point in time'.
In other words, if an undiscovered and conclusive evidence X were taken into consideration, it would not be possible to deny the possibility that the deduction the detective did reach could be turned upside down.

　つまり探偵は、数々の証拠から推理を捻出することに加え、 “未発見の証拠が存在しない”ことを立証する義務が生じたのです。
そして言うまでもなく、これを証明することはまさに“悪魔の証明”。
……つまり、探偵には自らの推理が正しいことを証明できないことが発覚してしまったわけです。
　徹底的に合理的なパズルであるべき本格ミステリーはこの時、にもかかわらず、回答を合理的に示すことが出 来ないというジレンマに陥ったのです。
In other words, in addition to working out a deduction from the many evidences, it was born the obligation for the detective to stablish proof that 'there are no evidences undiscovered'.
And, needless to say, to prove this is exactly the 'proof of the demon' (probatio diabolica).
...... In other words, it means it ended up coming to light that it's not possible for the detective to prove that his deduction is correct.
The authentic mystery, that should be completely logical, in spite of that, this time, fell into the dilemma of not being able to show an answer logically.

　作中でいくら“マスターキーは一本”と説明したところで、マスターキーの複製がある可能性を否定できませ ん。仮にそれが不可能であることを説明したとしても、 “その人物の与り知れないところで複製が作られていた可能性”は常に否定できません。
複製不能な形状であると説明したところで、 “それでもなお複製する未知の技術”の存在を否定することには至りません。
No matter how much, during the story, one explains that 'there's one master key', we can't deny the possibility that there are copies of the master key.
Even if one explain it is impossible, we can never deny the possibility that 'a copy was made without that character's knowledge'.
Even if they explain that it has a shape that is impossible to make a copy, it doesn't reach the point of denying th existence of a 'not yet known technology that can copy it even so'.

　第一発見者がウソをついているかもしれないし、警察の鑑識結果が誤っているかもしれない。
あるいは犯人に買収されていて、あるいは探偵を誤推理に誘導するために何かを偽装しているのか も…。
　それら、全ての“想定外の可能性を”完全否定しきらなければ、問題の提示にすら至れなくなってしまったの です。
しかし、言うまでもなくそれは不可能です。
The first discoverer in the scen of the crime might be lying, the judgement results of the police might be wrong.
They may have been bribed by the criminal or are covering something to lead the detective into a wrong deduction...
If we don't deny completely those things and 'all possibilities aside from the ones assumed', we could not even reach the presentation of the problem.
However, needless to say, it is impossible.

　究極にまで言ってしまえば、仮に探偵（読者）が、非常に合理的な推理に辿り着き、それを犯人が認めて降参 したシーンがあったとしても。
……未発見の致命的証拠Ｘが残っており、さらに、真犯人を庇う為に共犯者がウソの告白をして罪を被っている 可能性を否定できないのです。
Saying it in an extreme way, even if the detective (reader) were to reach an extremely logical deduction and there was a scene where the criminal recognizes it and gives in.
...... We cannot deny the possibility that a lethal and undiscovered evidence X remains and, moreover, an accomplice made a fake confession to protect the real criminal and took the blame in his place.

　実際、 『ひぐらしのなく頃に』の「綿流し編」でも、このジレンマをモチーフにしている箇所があります 。
実際、 「目明し編」を発表するまで、「綿流し編」の犯人をほぼ全ての読者が誤解していたはずです。
　なぜなら「綿流し編」単体では、レナの推理を犯人が認めたと描かれているのですから、その推理は“完結” しています。
つまり、○○が犯人で“その時点での推理は正しい”のです。
Actually, in 'Watanagashi-hen' of 'Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni', too, there is a point where this dilemma is used as a motif.
Actually, before the announcement of 'Meakashi-hen', almost all the readers should have been wrong about the criminal of 'Watanagshi-hen'.
That is because with 'Watanagashi-hen' alone, it was depicted a scene where the criminal recognized Rena's deduction and so, that deduction was 'concluded' there.
In other words, __ is the criminal and 'the deduction at that time was correct'.

　にもかかわらず「目明し編」では、　「綿流し編」の時点で知りえない数々の新情報が明かされ、その結果、 別の人物が本当の犯人であったことが明かされます。
　「目明し編」までを終えた読者には納得のいく答えでしょうが、 「綿流し編の」時点ではそれは推理不可能です。
しかしだからといって「綿流し編」の時点での推理構築は“誤りではない”。
誤った犯人に至ったとしても、その推理は“その時点”では正しいのです。
その時点で存在する材料を全て構築して至った“本格的な”答えなのだから。
　でも、紛れもなく。
「綿流し編」での段階での犯人特定は間違えているのです。
In spite of that, in 'Meakashi-hen', many new informations, unknown at the time of 'Watanagashi-hen', were revealed and, as a result of that, it is revealed that a different character was the real criminal.
It was probably a valid solution to the readers who had finished reading until 'Meakashi-hen' but, at the time of 'Watanagashi-hen', it was impossible to deduce that.
However, while it may be true, the deduction construction at the time of 'Watanagashi-hen' was 'not an error'.
Even if you reached the wrong criminal, that deduction was correct 'at that time'.
Because, at that time, it was a 'genuine' solution obtained using all the existing ingredients available.
But, one thing is certain.
The specification of the criminal at the stage of 'Watanagashi-hen' was wrong.

　これこそが「後期クイーン問題」です。
　そして読者は目明し編を読み終え、一定の解答を得て、ある程度の納得はできたはずなのです。
　しかしそれでもなお。
　「目明し編」を終えてなお、それが正しい真相であるという保障はないのです。
「後期クイーン問題」がある限り。
　極端な暴論の一例ですが、後年に竜騎士０７が『ひぐらしのなく頃に真』なる真相解明編を執筆し、「綿流し 編」「目明し編」の真相は偽装で、実は犯人は意外な人物○○だった！　と“未知の新情報を後付 けで追加” して発表したならば、それは正しい真相として“上書きされ” 、「目明し編」の真相すら、捻じ曲がり得るのだ、ということになります。
（恐ろしいことに、このアンフェアすらも、「綿流し編」 「目明し編」「真相解明編」の3つを１つの作品として見なした場合、フェアであることになりま す。
どのような後付け情報であったとしても、それが後付けであるか否かは証明不能です。
そして「後期クイーン問題」がある限り、新情報がいくら後付けされたとしても許されるのです。
未発見情報の存在は否定不能なのですから。）
This is the 'last part queen problem'.
And then, the reader should have finished reading Meakashi-hen, obtained a definite answer and managed to get a certain amount of understanding of it.
However, even so.
Even finishing the reading of 'Meakashi-hen', there's no guarantee that that was the right truth.
As long as there is the 'last part queen problem'.
It's just an extremely irrational example but, if, in later years, Ryuukishi07 were to write the Truth Clarification Chapter, 'Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni Truth', and then announced it 'adding not yet known new information as appendix' such as 'The truth of 'Watanagashi-hen' and 'Meakashi-hen' were disguised, in fact, the criminal was the unexpected character ___!', it would be overwritten as the correct truth and it would be possible to distort even the truth of 'Meakashi-hen'.
(Dreadfully, even this unfair thing would become fair in case we considered these 3 chapter, 'Watanagashi-hen', 'Meakashi-hen' and 'Truth Clarification Chapter', as only one piece of work.
No matter what kind of appendix information it is, it is impossible to prove whether it was added later or not.
And then, as long as there is the 'last part queen problem', it will be allowed to add new information later as much as one wants.
After all, it is impossible to deny the existence of undiscovered information.)

　言い訳っぽく書きますが、もちろん「綿流し編」と「目明し編」は表裏一体のシナリオです。
後付け設定は一切ありません。
……もっとも私がそれをここで語ったところでその真偽は証明不能なわけですが。
I'll write it sounding like an excuse, but, obviously, 'Watanagashi-hen' and 'Meakashi-hen' are the two views of the same scenario.
There won't be any settings added later.
...... Naturally, even if I say it here, it's impossible to prove the authenticity of what I said.

　つまり何が言いたいのかというと、どんな解答も、筆者（神）による真相（神託）でさえも！それは絶対では ないということ。
　筆者という作品中の最高神でさえ、未来の自分という、より上層のメタ存在によって、いくらでも真相は改竄 され得るのです。
　つまり、非常に乱暴な極論ですが、 「後期クイーン問題」を語る限り、ミステリーはパズルたり得ないというジレンマに陥るのです。
In other words, what I want to say is that, whatever is the answer, even the truth (oracle) according to the writer (god)!, they are not absolute.
The truth can be altered many times over by the hands of a META being of a higher stratum than even the supreme god of the story, the writer, this meta-being being the writer himself in the future.
In other words, it's an extremely rough argument but, as long as we talk about 'last part queen problem', we'll collapse into the dilemma of the mystery being an impossible puzzle.


　ミステリーがミステリーとして高潔であろうとした結果、自らの存在を否定するに至ったことの何と皮肉か… 。
How ironic it is for the mystery to have reached the point of denying its own existence, as the result of having tried to be pure as a mystery....

　これは私が皮肉な意味を込めて“アンチミステリー”と呼んでいます。
I call this 'anti-mystery', including the ironic sense in it.




メタルールについて
Regarding the Meta Rules

　“悪魔の証明”がある限り、私たちも探偵も、常に未発見の証拠Ｘを否定できません。
　“悪魔の証明”を破らない限り、私たちは推理に挑む資格すら、得られないのです。
　目の前で人が死に、密室が構築され、不審な証拠品が転がっているにもかかわらず、私たちは推理を始めるこ とができないのです。
As long as there is the 'proof of the demon', we and the detective can never deny an evidence X, yet to be discovered.
As long as the 'proof of the demon' is not broken, we won't even be able to obtain the qualifications to challenge the mystery.
People die before your eyes, secret rooms are constructed, doubtful evidences roll around, and in spite of that, we can't start the deductions.

　犯行現場の調査よりも、証拠の吟味よりも、第一発見所の証言よりも！　
私たちはまず最初に“それ”を確認しなければならない。
　“それ”はつまり、……“今この場にある全ての証拠で推理が可能か否か”！
　歴史的名探偵が犯行現場で天を見上げ、全能の神（筆者）に、まず問いかけるのです。
Instead of investigations in the scenes of the crimes, scrutinies of evidences and testimonies from the local where they were first discovered!
We have to check 'that' before anything else.
'That' is, in other words, ...... 'whether it is possible or not to make deductions with all the evidences in this place now'!
Historical great detectives look up at the skies at the scenes of the crimes and, before anything, ask to the almighty god (writer).

「この世界（作品）は、本格ミステリー（推理可能）ですか？！」
" Is this world (piece of work), an authentic mystery (possible to deduce)?!"

　すると神様はこう答えます。
Then, God answers like this.

「ええ、この作品は本格ミステリーですよ。
だから絶対に貴方にも解けると、安心して推理をしてください。」
" Yeah, this piece of work is an authentic mystery.
So, it's definitely possible for you to solve it as well, relax and make your deductions."

　そして探偵は、あぁ良かった、なら安心して推理に挑戦できると胸を撫で下ろし、ようやく犯行現場の調査を 始めるのです。
　現実の殺人事件でも、きっとこういう光景なんでしょうね。
警察が現場周辺を封鎖しマスコミを遠ざけた後、刑事たちが拍手を打って天を仰ぐのです。
Then, when the detective thinks 'Aah, good to hear it', relaxes and is able to challenge the mystery, he strokes down his chest and finally begins to investigate the scene of the crime.
Even in real murder cases, certainly a scene like this might happen too.
After the police blocks the circumference of the scene of the crime and keeps the media at a distance, the detectives clap their hands and look up at the skies.

「あぁ、神様！
この事件は解決可能でしょうか？！
それを教えてもらわなければ、私たちは捜査も推理もできません…！！　
だって変格ミステリーや社会派ミステリーだったなら、ましてや今流行の伝奇ファンタジーだったなら推理して も無駄なわけですし！」
" Aah, God!
Would it be possible to solve this case?!
If you don't tell us that, we won't be able to investigate or make deductions...!!
After all, if it is an irregular mystery or a *bizarre/social mystery*, not to say if it is a fantasy romance in vogue now, it won't make any sense even if we try to make deductions!"

*(Shakaiha Mystery, bizarre is imprecise but I can't find a better words here)

　しかし、現実問題として。
神様がそれに答えることはありません。
　すると、神託があるまで拍手は続くのでしょうか？　
神託がなければ捜査は打ち切りに？
However, since it is as a real life problem.
God doesn't answer to them.
Then, could it be that they will keep on clapping hands until there is a revelation?
If there's no revelation, the investigations will close?

　この状況を思い浮かべ、あぁなんと間抜けなのか馬鹿馬鹿しいッ！！と滑稽に思った時、私は初めて、“アン チミステリー”という概念がありえることを知りました。
　全ての謎に算数的解答を合理的に求めようとするニンゲンたち。
　それは一見とても知的に見えますが、実はそれは大きな誤り。
“その謎が、合理的に回答が得られるものであるという前提がない限り”、ニンゲンたちは謎に挑むことすらか なわないのです。
　そしてそんな前提が与えられることは絶対にない。
つまり、ニンゲンは知的を威張り散らし、ミステリーを推理できる豪語しながら、実際は神様からのお墨付きが なければ、「灰色の脳細胞」 の一欠けらも使うことは出来ない無知無能無教養の脳ナシ思考ナシ考えナシ。
ゾウリムシと同じ程度の知性しかないわけです。
When calling this situation to mind, and jokingly thought 'Aah, what a stupidity, this is an idiocy!!', for the first time, I realized that the notion of 'Anti-mystery' is something possible.
The human beings try to rationally seek arithmetic answers in all the riddles.
At first glance, it looks intellectual but, in fact, that is a big mistake.
'Unless there is the premise that that riddle is something we can obtain the correct answer rationally', the human beings are unable to challenge the riddle.
And such a premise will never be given.
In other words, while the human beings boast that they domineer intellectuality and can deduce mysteries, in practice, without a certificate from God, they don't have brains, thoughts or ideas, they are ignorant, inept, unrefined, unable to use even a fragment of their 'gray brain cells'.
It means they have nothing but an intelligence of the same level as a paramecium.


　『うみねこのなく頃に』の中でベアトリーチェが嘲笑っているのは、まさにそのこと。
　全てに算数的解答を求めようと意気込みながら、そのくせ、それが可能であることを保障されなければ挑戦も 出来ない。
　ボクシングなどに例えたなら、勝てると保証された相手以外とは戦いたくないと言っているボクサーのような ものです。
　魔女ベアトリーチェには、魔女を否定すると意気込み、合理的に真実を暴こうと意気込むニンゲンたちが、こ んなにも滑稽に見えるのです。
What Beatrice sneers at in 'Umineko no Naku Koro Ni' is exactly that.
While enthusiastic about seeking arithmetic answers in everything, in spite of that, if it is not guaranteed that that is possible, they can't even challenge it.
Comparing it with boxing, it would be like a boxer saying that he only wants to fight with an opponent that he was guaranteed that he can win.
To the witch Beatrice, the human beings who are enthusiastic about denying the witch and disclose the truth rationally look this much laughable.

　あなたは、『うみねこのなく頃に』のＥＰ１を終えたとき、本当に推理に挑戦できましたか？
　本格か否かの宣言がないからと、挑戦を渋ったのではありませんか？
　全ての証拠が提示されているという証明がないからと、挑戦を渋ったのではありませんか？
When you finished the EP1 of 'Umineko No Naku Koro Ni', were you really able to challenge the mystery?
You hesitated in the challenge just because there was no word about whether it was authentic or not, didn't you?
You hesitated in the challenge just because there was no proof that all the evidences were shown, didn't you?

　………くっくっくっく！！　
ばァか。
そんな証明、貴様らの人生のいつどこにあったというのか？
　貴様らは高校受験の時、神様に、ここを受験して受かりますか？と聞いて、受かると神託を受けなければ受験 も出来ないのかァ？くっひっひゃっははははははは…！
　ママが、ボクちゃんならきっと受かるわよ！と言ってくれなきゃ、受験も出来なかったって言うのかよォぉお お？？　
くっひっひひひひひひひひ！
...... Kuukuukuuku!!
Fooool.
Care to tell me where and when in your life did you have a proof like that?
When you took examinations to enter high school, if you did not received a revelation that you'd pass the exam, upon asking it to God, you wouldn't be able to pass? Kuuhiihyaahahahahahahaha...!
You mean that if your mama had not said 'my little boy will surely pass the exam!', you would not have been able to pass the exaaaam??
Kuuhiihihihihihihihihi!

　ニンゲンの語るミステリーが何と下らないものなのかと理解できたそなた。
そして妾の笑いたい気持ちが理解できたそなたはようこそ“アンチミステリー”の世界へ。
　「この世には科学では説明できないことが多々ある」ってよく言うだろォ？　
そういうことなんだよ。
この世の全ては完全証明不能！　
常に我々の想定しない未知のＸが想定しうる。
そしてそれは誰にも否定できない！
　推理ぃ？　
ミステリー？　
本格ゥ？　
あっひゃははははははははははは！！　
ばァかばかしいぃいいぃ！！　
ボクちゃんはミステリー文庫で新刊を買ったら、まず先にママに読んでもらうといいさ。
そして「この本はボクにも解ける？」と聞いて、ママが頷いてくれたのだけ読めばいいさ！　
ママに咀嚼（そしゃく）してもらった離乳食だけくってりゃあいいんだよゥ、うっひぇっひゃっひゃっひゃっひ ゃぁぁぁ！！
You managed to understand that how the mysteries the humans talk about are worthless.
And, if you managed to understand my will to laugh, you are welcome to the world of the 'anti-mystery'.
They oftenly say that 'in this world, there are many things science can't explain', right?
That's right.
It is impossible to prove perfectly everything in this world.
It is always possible to suppose a not yet known X that we did not suppose.
And nobody can deny that!
Reasoniing?
Mystery?
Aahyahahahahahahahahahahaha!!
Foooliiiiiish!!
When the little boy buys a new book at the mystery library, he should ask his Mama to read it first.
And then, you should just ask to her 'is it possible for me to solve this book too?' and when Mama nodded to you, you would read.
It'd be good for you to eat only the baby food your Mama chewed for youuu, Uuhyeehyaahyaahyaahyaaaa!!


──だからお嬢様、そういうのが品がないと申しています。
-- That why I tell Milady, such a thing has no class.

　ベアトリーチェさまが使われる「赤き真実」は、 それに対するひとつのアンチテーゼと申せましょう。
　「赤き真実」で語ったことは、まさに神の言葉。
　何の証拠も証明もなく、それが真実となる。
　赤き真実で、 “扉はマスターキー以外では開錠できない”と言ったならば、それ以外の想定が一切必要なくなりま す。
ピッキングでも釣り糸で内側から引っ張るも想定不要です。
　さらに重ねて赤にて“マスターキーの個数は５本でそれ以外では開錠不能。
複製は不可能”と続ければ、なお完璧になりましょう。
We could say that the 'red truth' Beatrice-sama uses is an antithesis against that.
The things she said with the 'red truth' are just as the words of a god.
Without any kind of evidence or proof, it becomes the truth.
If she said, with the red truth, that 'the door can only be unlocked with the master key', it'd become completely unnecessary to make suppositions besides that.
It'd be unnecessary to make suppositions of pulling it from inside with lock pickings or fishing lines.
if she had continued to add saying in red that 'the number of master keys is 5 and it is only possible to unlock it with them.
And that duplications are impossible', it would become even more perfect.

　ただ、あえて最後に一粒、山椒を残していきましょう。
　真実であると自称する「赤き真実」が、本当の本当に“真実”であるのかは、たとえお嬢様であっても証明不 可能です。
　皆様の中にも、お嬢様の「赤き真実」が、本当に信用できるのかと、未だに疑っておられる方々もおられるで しょう。
But, let's be bold and leave the best to the end.
It is impoosible to prove whether the 'red truth', that calls itself as the truth, is really the real truth, even for the Milady.
I guess there are people among you all who are still in doubt whether Milady's 'red truth' can really be trusted.

　そう。
この世に、真実であることが証明できる真実など、存在したりしないのです。
　だから、もしもその真実を信じることが出来るかどうかを問うならば、こういう問いかけになる でしょう。
That's right.
In this world, a truth that you can prove to be the truth doesn't exist.
So, if you ask whether you can believe that truth or not, it will probably end up becoming a question like this.

“貴方は、彼女のことを信じることができますか？”
'Can you believe her?"


　愛する人を、やがてはあなたも伴侶に迎えるでしょう。
そして約束の日、神父にきっとそう問いかけられるはずですよ。
　まさかあなたはその時にも、彼女が口にする真実が真実であると証明することはできないと仰られるつもりで ……？　…ぷっくくくくくく。
Probably, before long, you too will call for a person you love to be your companion.
And then, at the day of the commitment, you should certainly be asked that question by the priest.
Could it be that, even at that time, you will want to say you can't prove that the truth she says is the truth......? ... Puukukukukukuku.


　魔女を否定する為には、魔女とニンゲンの戦うゲームに挑まなければならない。
　しかしそれに臨むには、魔女の「赤き真実」が、確かに真実であることを信じなければならない 。
　魔女を信じないが為に挑むゲームなのに、魔女の発言を信じなければならないとは、何と滑稽な 矛盾か。
In order to deny the witch, you have to challenge a game between a witch and a human.
However, to deal with that, you have to believe that the witch's 'red truth' is certainly the truth.
Even though it is a game to challenge the witch, and you don't believe her, that you have to believe the witch's utterance is quite a laughable contradiction.

　貴方が初めて　「赤き真実」のルールを聞き、それが信用できるのかと聞いた時、お嬢様はこう仰られました ね。
　“妾はそなたとゲームをしている。
ゲームのルールは神聖！！それを軽んじる者に参加の資格はないッ！！”
When you heard for the first time about the rule of the 'red truth' and asked if you could trust that, Milady said this.
' I am playing this game with you.
The rules of the game are sacred!! A person who makes light of that is not qualified to take part!!'

　ぷっくっくっく…！
　あなたとお嬢様はつまり、神聖な信頼で結ばれた関係、ということになりますね。
悪魔も妬こうというもの。
ぷっくっく…。
Puukuukuuku...!
In the end, you and Milady have a relation tied by a sacred reliance.
Something even a demon would be jealous.
Puukuuku....

　この世に真実など何もありません。
　この世の一なる元素であると謳われる「愛」すらも、所詮は幻想。
ファンタジー。
　全てをミステリーで説明し、ファンタジーを否定しようとする人間には、愛する資格も、愛される資格もない ということかもしれませんね。
There isn't any truth in this world.
Even 'love', reputed to be the sole element of this world, in the nd, is an illusion.
Fantasy.
The humans who try to explain everything as mystery and try to deny the fantasy might not be qualififed to love and to be loved.


　あなた様は“アンチファンタジー”ですか？　“アンチミステリー”ですか？
Are you 'anti-fantasy'? Or 'anti-mystery'?

　ほほぅ？都合の良いように、物事によって使い分けている？
　それが一番お利口でしょうな。
Hohou? Are you using it conveniently, according to the situation?
That might be the wisest thing to do, I guess.


　友人の誇張しすぎた武勇伝にはアンチファンタジーを。
　分不相応な夢に酔いたい時にはアンチミステリーを。
　眠れない夜にはやさしい音色のアンチモニーオルゴールを。
With the exaggerated tales of prowess of the friends, use the anti-fantasy.
At the times you want to get drunk with inappropriate dreams, use anti-mystery.
In the nights you can't sleep, use an antimony music box of a gentle timbre.

　それではおやすみなさいませ、皆様方…。
Then, have a good sleep, everyone....



（おわり）
(END)

With this, bern's letter and lamda's memoirs, it's over with EP3

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1003
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1009

The stakes' valentine day (Butterfly kiss) is related to EP4.
Let's leave it for later.

[The Creator]

Bern's letter, Lamba's memoirs and anti-fantasy vs anti-mistery, were tips of Ep3, or some extra content of the game? Like a paper book i mean, not extra doc files found on the cd

[theacefrehley]

booklets given at comiket or such... don't remember anymore

[Sterling01]

I'm not sure where Anti-mystery x Anti-fantasy came from but Bern's letter and Lamda's memoirs were an extra that came with the comiket version of Ep 3... I think.

[theacefrehley]

anti fantasy, anti mystery came together with bern's letter, and the poems
wherever they were distributed, whatever format...

[Chadauw]

Spoiler for Lambda's memoirs, Higurashi spoilers:

Originally Posted by Marion

As far as granting the wish goes, the first part I think she refers to Miyoko/Takano from Higurashi. In Higurashi, Takano referred to herself as a God at the end of Minagoroshi, when she was gassing Hinamizawa. According to Lambda's memoirs, the first girl wished to be a God.

The second person is probably Rika, since Lambda talks about a witch being born from the girl. Looking at the Tea Parties from Umineko 1 and 2, Bernkanstel claims she was born from the game in which she beat Lambda. Lambda also supported this in the tea party episode 2, when she calls herself a big sister to Bern in a sense (it might have been the other way around).

There's no doubt that the first girl is Takano.

But I think the second person, who wants to be a witch, is the culprit of Umineko. It matches with the discussion between Lambdadelta and Beatrice in the tea party of EP3.
Bernkastel must be the one she talks about when she says :
"I have to call a friend too, right?
I have to surprise her with a wonderful tea party."

[Kets]

What is the Last Part Queen Problem?

[chounokoe]

Well I also tried to form a bigger picture on Umineko, just like I did back then with Higurashi, and I think I will fail just as much in getting to the truth as I did while only knowing the Question Arcs to Higurashi.
I have to admit that I did not read Episode 4 yet, so maybe some of my points are crushed in the first few minutes, but I still want to point them out...if only to maybe give other people another point of view, because I know how easy it is to get stuck in a theory.

Spoiler for The basic principle of A-M vs A-F:

Because we have more or less solid proof from Ryukishi himself, that what we've seen up until now is only a 'temporary truth' the only thing I feel myself able to do is evaluate how possible or impossible a situation would be, while analyzing his writing pattern from Higurashi.
But I still think Ryukishi is intelligent enough to play with exactly that expectation and either turn it around 180° or leave it exactly like that and make me BELIEVE that it has been twisted...

Many people said we can take Episode 1 as a starting point to examining what happened, because 'things are still normal there'.
The first problem I have here is, where exactly do we, as audience stand?
Are we like Hanyuu in Higurashi, walking around and seeing things as they happen?!
Or are we already in a chair next to Beatrice on the Meta-plane, seeing things like a movie directed by Beatrice-kantoku?!
By Episode 2 and 3 we can be sure, that we are with Battler on the Meta-plane and that things are not quite as they seem, but couldn't that be the case right from the start?
So I won't take Episode 1 as the most normal, but only as the one with the least obvious magical aspects.
In the end it is the arc I also believe to be the least trustworthy, because we have no Beatrice and Battler constantly commenting on the plot.

Spoiler for Thought about the individual episodes:

I thought about the possibility of the same set of murderers in every round, but I ended up thinking that to be quite unlikely.
In Episode 3 it appears to be that 'Beatrice' awakens to those who solve the Epitaph or come into close contact with the gold. Taking that into account, I thought that it could be that in every arc another person got 'close to the truth', because just like Beatrices letter implied everybody is equal in the race towards the Golden Land.

EP1: I feel Natsuhi is acting most suspicious during this chapter.
We may have Evas rather unexplainable act of marking the door to Kinzo's study, but I think it is rather unlikely that she would frame Natsuhi through such a blunt attempt that couldn't be proven so easily.
Natsuhi may not have survived in the end, but it was never stated in red that it was not suicide as far as I remember. And we still have the possibility of a real culprit behind the one commiting most of murders.
I doubt her, because of the rather surreal scene between her and Kinzo, it felt in a way similar to the crowning ceremony in Episode 3. It gave her the 'right' to feel having justice on her side.

EP2: Here I felt Rosa was the most suspicious.
We have both the scene of the butterfly resting on her back while going up to (I think) Kinzo's study and the strange fact that it is unclear what she was doing while her siblings were in the chapel 'accepting Beatrice'.
Additionaly she met Beatrice in the garden and was shown that the almighty witch of Rokkenjima, whom she killed in her youth, appeared before her daughter and made her into her ambassador. This could be interpreted as a similar empowering act as the crowning in Episode 3.
It is also not impossible for her to have solved the riddle of the epitaph, we did see in Episode 3 that she came to the conclusion just shortly after Eva.
It may have been her to set up the Halloween scene in the chapel, to scare of the remaining people from searching for the gold, but in the end someone else carried on murdering and her plan was destroyed...which could also explain her desperation to safe at least the 2 remaining gold ingots in the end.

EP3: We have of course Eva, who was most likely really given an alibi by Hideyoshi for commiting some of the murders from the 2nd twilight on.
I don't think it was her who commited the murders of the first twilight, because she had neither a clear motiv nor was it likely for her to get to Kinzo.
What is strange in this episode is that a fixed point in the murders changes after Eva-Beatrice takes over and kills Rosa and Maria.
There are no magic circles at the crime scene anymore.
So it appears to me as if Marias notebook seems to have been used for creating those circles and after she was killed it was lost to the real culprit...or Eva really carried out the remaining murders and it didn't seem important to her at all.
This is a strange fact because there was also altering with Marias handbag in Episode 2, and maybe it wasn't only the key which was removed and put back, but also her notebook.

So maybe we do not have to search for things that are similar in every episode, but things that seem to change without iminent impact on the events happening and thus seem odd to change.

Spoiler for things that seem odd:

Why was Kinzo burned to an unrecognizable crisp in Episode 1 and 3, but not in Episode 2?
I thought about that and it means that either Kinzo really did fake his death a'la Takano in 1 and 3 but had no reason to do so in Episode 2, or maybe someone carried out the murders unebknownst to Kinzo and he had no time to put his fake corpse into a crimescene, or it was the same culprit to kill Kinzo in both Episode 1 and 3, but this culprit was killed in Episode 2 before he could get a hold on Kinzo.

Why are the magic circles missing on the crime scenes in Episode 3 and in addition we get a strange number-riddle?
I already said, that I assume that Marias notebook with all the magic circles in it is a vital element of this. It is rather strange that the exact symbols that are used at the crime scene can be found in her notebook...it's like the desaster which was foretold by Takano.
In Episode 3 Maria was killed. We know she always carried her handbag around with her so maybe the notebook was destroyed or unreadable because of the rain, or as I said, maybe Eva did all the killings and simply did not care about the ritual (which is hinted at by Eva-Beatrices behaviour).

Why were the children so far NOT among the sacrifices for the first twilight?
The culprit does not seem to have a practical interest in killing the children, because if it really was the fact that the 'wheel of fate' chooses totally randomly it is strange that it hit Shannon, Gohda, Krauss, Rudolf and Kyrie twice, while it did not once hit the children so far.

[Haruyan]

Spoiler for My thoughts on a few characters:

Eva: I think she's very suspicious, and I think she might be trying to frame someone for murder's she might have done, or that she suspects they themselves might have done, like Natsuhi and the door check. However, other than chapter 3, there's little to no evidence that she committed any crime, but she does have the strongest motive to.

Hideyoshi: I don't think he could've commited any crime, but he is Eva's husband, and he could support her in what she does, willing or unwillingly.

Krauss: He also has motives to kill his siblings and the servants, but not everyone else. So he is a possible culprit, but there is not evidence for it and with the exception of EP3, he dies pretty early on.

Natsuhi: Despite her adamant need to defend the Ushiromiya name, I don't think she's capable of murder, at least unprovoked. Her headaches seem a bit suspicious to me, we're not stated in red in any chapter whether a character is sick or not (mental or otherwise).

Rudolf: He seems to know something that others don't by what he says to Kyrie and Battler. Perhaps something that could be a threat? Thinking about it, we don't know much of him.

Kyrie: There's something about here that seems odd, perhaps a bit Takano-ish. She seems to me like the type of character that could become a great ally, or a great enemy. She's certainly very smart and that alone is a threat or advantage.

Rosa: Another suspicious character. I wonder if she remembers meeting Beatrice everytime, or only in EP3. It seems suspicious she's the only survivor in the 1st twilight of EP2, despite being present in the chapel, or was she? And if she was, why doesn't she seem to remember it.

Nanjo: IMHO, the most suspicious person. I think he is the most likely to be a culprit or an accomplice. His responses when pressed for an alibi seem nervous and suspicious, and his alibis are also weak. He could be blackmailed into doing many things, and considering he's the only doctor in the island, his word is law when giving a statement.

Servants: I'm not gonna talk about each of them because they all seem suspicious, after all, they take direct orders from Kinzo. Kumasawa also seems very nervous when pressed for an explanation or alibi.

Jessica: Forgive me, but I think she might be an accomplice for someone, perhaps without her knowledge.

Maria: Same for Maria, she seems to be deceived pretty easily, but she's also quite cunning when she wants.

I think we can agree that there is more than one culprit in any of the games. I also think that some of the murders could be accidental or passionate murders, disguised to look like they're following the pattern. (e.g. Eva goes into a rampage and accidentally kills George in her rage).

I might be wrong, but I don't think we should apply the red truth for every EP. There could be 'multiple truths', and just as well, 'multiple lies'. The rule of There's no more than 18 people in Rokkenjima, could only apply to the EP it was used in. I might be wrong, feel free to shoot me down.

[Chadauw]

The cousins never die because of Maria's charms!! Uu-uu!!

Hum.... Here's the first part of my analysis of episode 2.

Episode 2 :

Spoiler for ep2:

Before the meeting :

It starts with some ShannonxGeorge and KanonxJessica. What is interesting here is that Shannon and Kannon are both interacting with Beatrice. So this Beatrice is either :
1/ Shannon imagining things (but Kanon is with her).
2/ Another character (Eva, Kumasawa?), impersonating Beatrice.
3/ The real witch Beatrice, if we believe the “Beatrice=Evil Hanyu” theory, but not the one comiting murders.

I think that it could be 3/ . If the witch really exists, then this Beatrice is likely to be the witch Beatrice. This Beatrice is very witch-like, and she doesn’t seem to be linked to what happens during the meeting.

Genji seems aware that a human Beatrice will appear during the meeting : “In the truest sense, we will receive an important guest today”… Maybe not really important, it just makes me suspect him more.


Chapel :

I wonder what happened in the Chapel. It seems that Beatrice showed the siblings some magic, to make them believe in her? Did she make the gold bars appear out of nowhere? The adults seem surprised, but they seem pretty calm for people who have seen magic.

Kyrie’s reaction seems to indicate that whatever Beatrice did, maybe there is a way to explain her “magic”…

There’s another thing I find strange in this scene : Eva and Rosa have feelings of respect after seeing what the witch did. Why did they feel respect?

Whatever happened, it seems like the witch showed then some gold. Did she show only the three bars of gold, or more than that?

Another strange thing : Beatrice wants them to try to solve the riddle before the end of the ceremony, right? But in this scene, it seems like she is putting an end to the game, showing them she won… Isn’t it a bit unfair?

And why are they in the chapel anyway? How did Beatrice manage to make them go to this place. There’s also the fact that the key to the Chapel was in Maria’s bag.

Maybe we can interpret things like this. Someone solved the riddle, and tell the siblings about it. Then, this person show them some gold, or maybe all the gold. This could mean that the place the gold is hidden is near the Chapel. That’s why Rosa and Eva feel respect for the person who solved the riddle.

But the siblings seem to accept it a bit easily.

If that is correct, then the person who solved the riddle is either a 19th person, or Rosa, who is the most suspicious person if we consider what happens next : she meets with Beatrice in the rose garden, she forgets what happened in the chapel, not to mention the butterfly when she wants to meet Kinzo.

[chounokoe]

The chapel incident in Episode 2 is still quite a mystery.

Spoiler for The chapel:

I also thought seeing Rosa among the siblings, so asuming she WAS there and so was Beatrice, why did she let her go but not the other siblings.
What if it was more like this:
Rosa put something in Marias handbag which seemed to be the key to the chapel, but kept the original to herself. Then she lured her siblings into the chapel, proclaming she solved the riddle of the Epitaph, which she maybe did.
She showed them some of the gold ingots to prove her point and maybe something else to show that she inherited 'Beatrice'. In the end we've got nothing more than a 'So you really are Beatrice' from the siblings.
After she somehow managed to kill them (maybe she got them off guard or got help) she set up the scene, locked the chapel and put the key into Marias handbag.
Wether or not there was a mysterious 19th guest on the island is another question, maybe there was but she was not quite as 'involved' as we were to believe.
And someone said that maybe the fact that There are no more than 18 people on this island really does only apply to Episode 3 and the mysterious guest wasn't able to enter the island because somebody who originally was to invite him/her wasn't able to do that.

We still need to find a starting point why someone in the family should start killing, so a friend and I got the idea that we need something equally normal and exchangable like the scrapbooks the characters in Higurashi got from Takano.

Spoiler for What could be the triggers:

My idea is that this point can maybe found somewhere else for each person, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is a point which changed the people in a way.

EP1: Natsuhi met with Kinzo and was told that in her heart she carried the golden eagle. She was granted her hearts desire and could become a stronger woman.

EP2: Rosa met with Beatrice and was assured that her daughter was not crazy, but there really were witches. She was granted the wish of a special daughter and became a stronger mother.

EP3: Eva was helped by her former self to find the gold and was assured that her future would be safe for herself and her family. She was granted the wish of being the independent head of the family and did in a way become stronger.

What DID change in Episode 3 was that not everyone died, but we cannot be sure it was because the gold was found, maybe it was rather because Eva managed to do something others could not...like Shion in Watanagashi/Meakashi managed to kill Rika/make her kill herself before Takano could get her.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

We still need to find a starting point why someone in the family should start killing, so a friend and I got the idea that we need something equally normal and exchangable like the scrapbooks the characters in Higurashi got from Takano.

Spoiler for What could be the triggers:

My idea is that this point can maybe found somewhere else for each person, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is a point which changed the people in a way.

EP1: Natsuhi met with Kinzo and was told that in her heart she carried the golden eagle. She was granted her hearts desire and could become a stronger woman.

EP2: Rosa met with Beatrice and was assured that her daughter was not crazy, but there really were witches. She was granted the wish of a special daughter and became a stronger mother.

EP3: Eva was helped by her former self to find the gold and was assured that her future would be safe for herself and her family. She was granted the wish of being the independent head of the family and did in a way become stronger.

What DID change in Episode 3 was that not everyone died, but we cannot be sure it was because the gold was found, maybe it was rather because Eva managed to do something others could not...like Shion in Watanagashi/Meakashi managed to kill Rika/make her kill herself before Takano could get her.

Interesting thought.

Spoiler for Episode 1:

Although there is a slight flaw. For starters - while Rosa and Eva are very likely culprits in Episodes 2 and 3 respectively, at the same time Natsuhi is less of a likely culprit in Episode 1. Putting her as an accomplice is better in theory, but as the main culprit Natsuhi is pretty unlikely overall. Of course accomplice is even flawed, if we question whether the Kinzo that told Natsuhi that is even real (more so, since according to Beatrice Kinzo is dead before the family even arrives in every situation)

[Matrim]

Must not click the ep.4 spoilers...Must be strong!

Anyone else scared Ryukishi07's mental state after reading this Anti-mystery x Anti-fantasy thingie? It was quite creepy in a way.

It was probably a valid solution to the readers who had finished reading until 'Meakashi-hen' but, at the time of 'Watanagashi-hen', it was impossible to deduce that.

Really?

Spoiler for Higurashi:

I seem to remember quite a few people on the Higurashi forum who insisted Shion did it after watching Watanagashi.

Spoiler for replies to some of the posts above and Higurashi again:

By Episode 2 and 3 we can be sure, that we are with Battler on the Meta-plane and that things are not quite as they seem, but couldn't that be the case right from the start?

It probably could but it would in my opinion it would be a case of very bad writing, if Battler and Beato just never happen to mention that ep.1 was also a game between them. Not to mention that the narrative is quite different in ep.1, with a lot more from Battler's PoV than the other two episodes.

They don’t really have the same body, but the kids and Natsuhi didn’t really check the corpse, and this means Nanjo and Kumasawa’s death could have be faked too (but they would need the body of an old woman an of a overweight old man…).

Not really, the bodies were apparently so mutilated that they could be recognized only by the clothes they were wearing.

I suspect Genji here, maybe with Kannon as an accomplice, as this scene could have been faked. But maybe Eva and Hideyoshi were not dead, just drugged and that’s why they aren’t responding? Then Genji broke the chain, killed the two (maybe moving Hideyoshi’s body), and substituted the chain with a new one (as he is a servant, he should know where to find one, plus he knew they were using one). He could have thrown the old chain, and then drew the magic circle. I don’t remember what Genji did Kannon left, so I don’t know if the timing matches…

While this is a possibility, why wouldn't Genji and Kanon wait for everybody to arrive and see the chain being in tact before "finding" the bodies? This would give them an even better alibi.

My idea is that this point can maybe found somewhere else for each person, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is a point which changed the people in a way.

EP1: Natsuhi met with Kinzo and was told that in her heart she carried the golden eagle. She was granted her hearts desire and could become a stronger woman.

EP2: Rosa met with Beatrice and was assured that her daughter was not crazy, but there really were witches. She was granted the wish of a special daughter and became a stronger mother.

While this is very much correct and these boosts of confidence are almost certainly crucial to the plot, they are not much of motives for murdering spree. Futhermore, Natsuhi and Rosa have alibis for many of the murders. And in Higurashi, murders happened even when no scrapbooks were invoolved, so I guess these boosts might explain first twilights in ep.1 and 2 and post-first twilights in ep.3 but as for the rest someone else is doing the murdering.

[chounokoe]

Spoiler for Motives and Alibis:

While this is very much correct and these boosts of confidence are almost certainly crucial to the plot, they are not much of motives for murdering spree. Futhermore, Natsuhi and Rosa have alibis for many of the murders.

Well motiv is clearly a subjective point of view, because everyone on the island has reason enough to murder another, that is except for some servants whom we yet not know enough about, but:

Kinzo: Wants to see Beatrice revived as it seems and probably believes in a kind of magic, suggested by the epitaph.
Krauss: Is put under pressure because of his large debts and gambling problems, if there was noone to get an inheritance except for him nobody would notice.
Natsuhi: She clearly dispises most of the other family members (especially Eva and George) because they stand above her and keep her from ever becoming a true Ushiromiya.
Jessica: Is being kept away from reaching true love and freedom because of her position as the daughter of the next head.
Eva: Was robbed of her oportunity to ever become someone inside the family again and again and fears to loose everything she has and to be unable to provide her son a future, who at the same time keeps disappointing her.
Hideyoshi: His company is failing and his family seems to be falling apart because of the inheritance.
George: He is being kept away from his true love and freedom because of his position as a probable new head.
Rudolf: His company is failing and he has secrets (which are starting to unravel during episode 4 as it seems) that would endager his and his families position in the lineage.
Kyrie: Her husband is on the verge of breaking down and she has a daughter to protect whose health problems are probably quite expensive.
Battler: He has the least motiv...why seems to be a plot of Episode 4 (which I was spoiled for...).
Rosa: Her husband left her, her business is failing, her daughter is creeping her out, she can't cope with her situation at all, getting a part of the inheritance would at least help to save her from breaking down.
Maria: She believes in a witch in order to protect her fragile soul. She would help anyone if it were to prove the existence of witches.
Shannon: She seems to be too kind to really commit murder, but she is still imprisoned as a mere furniture.
Kanon: He wants to become human, which he can't while the Ushiromiya-system exists.
Nanjo: He has a sick grandchild, which seems to tie him somehow to his service to Kinzo.
Kumasawa: She always ponders on how useless and powerless she is, if she was given power maybe she would act.
Genji: We don't know more about him...all we know is that he would do anything Kinzo tells him to do.
Goda: He is new among the servants and least likely to be a part of it, but maybe just that makes him suspicious.

So motiv depends on how you look at the situation, just like Eva explained in Episode 1, everyone could be the murderer, even herself as she admitted.
For the alibis, we learned by Episode 3 how easy it is to construct an alibi, especially when Beatrices 'Magic Firework' is involved.
Rosa only had alibis for MOST of the murders, but because we don't know HOW they were commited it is still questionable how far that counts.
There could still be a hidden group of occult maniacs gathering around Kinzo, who 'assist' the corresponding main-murderer from each story...maybe without him or her knowing at all.

Spoiler for Higurashi <> Umineko:

And in Higurashi, murders happened even when no scrapbooks were invoolved, so I guess these boosts might explain first twilights in ep.1 and 2 and post-first twilights in ep.3 but as for the rest someone else is doing the murdering.

I never doubted that there could be more than one person commiting muders on the island. Maybe a massacre is set into motion because of one person commiting the murders. But I still think that there is ONE main-murderer in each story who is flexible and possibly one or more entities in the shadows who gain something from those murders (Just like Takano got her field research and the needed commotion from distributing her scrapbooks).

Spoiler for On Natsuhi:

Interesting thought.

Spoiler for Episode 1:

Although there is a slight flaw. For starters - while Rosa and Eva are very likely culprits in Episodes 2 and 3 respectively, at the same time Natsuhi is less of a likely culprit in Episode 1. Putting her as an accomplice is better in theory, but as the main culprit Natsuhi is pretty unlikely overall. Of course accomplice is even flawed, if we question whether the Kinzo that told Natsuhi that is even real (more so, since according to Beatrice Kinzo is dead before the family even arrives in every situation)

While it IS unlikely that Natsuhi is the main culprit, I wouldn't say it is impossible for her to be A main culprit of Episode 1.
She would never be the person who is responsible for the tragedy that happened on Rokkenjima, but I can imagine her in the position of the key to open up the door to this tragedy in Episode 1.
Just like Keiichi did not know that he was helping the disaster develop in a way, maybe Natsuhi did not know she was instrumentalized either.

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

The chapel incident in Episode 2 is still quite a mystery.

Spoiler for The chapel:

I also thought seeing Rosa among the siblings, so asuming she WAS there and so was Beatrice, why did she let her go but not the other siblings.
What if it was more like this:
Rosa put something in Marias handbag which seemed to be the key to the chapel, but kept the original to herself. Then she lured her siblings into the chapel, proclaming she solved the riddle of the Epitaph, which she maybe did.
She showed them some of the gold ingots to prove her point and maybe something else to show that she inherited 'Beatrice'. In the end we've got nothing more than a 'So you really are Beatrice' from the siblings.
After she somehow managed to kill them (maybe she got them off guard or got help) she set up the scene, locked the chapel and put the key into Marias handbag.

Spoiler for Episode 2:

It's impossible for Rosa to do that with the Chapel Key, "The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel"

Although I do agree with you about Rosa doing it. My guess is either as you said, or that she actually did solve the Epitaph and tried to get her siblings to reconize her as the head, however, they wouldn't and so she killed them.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Spoiler for Motives and Alibis:

Kinzo: Wants to see Beatrice revived as it seems and probably believes in a kind of magic, suggested by the epitaph.
Krauss: Is put under pressure because of his large debts and gambling problems, if there was noone to get an inheritance except for him nobody would notice.
Natsuhi: She clearly dispises most of the other family members (especially Eva and George) because they stand above her and keep her from ever becoming a true Ushiromiya.
Jessica: Is being kept away from reaching true love and freedom because of her position as the daughter of the next head.
Eva: Was robbed of her oportunity to ever become someone inside the family again and again and fears to loose everything she has and to be unable to provide her son a future, who at the same time keeps disappointing her.
Hideyoshi: His company is failing and his family seems to be falling apart because of the inheritance.
George: He is being kept away from his true love and freedom because of his position as a probable new head.
Rudolf: His company is failing and he has secrets (which are starting to unravel during episode 4 as it seems) that would endager his and his families position in the lineage.
Kyrie: Her husband is on the verge of breaking down and she has a daughter to protect whose health problems are probably quite expensive.
Battler: He has the least motiv...why seems to be a plot of Episode 4 (which I was spoiled for...).
Rosa: Her husband left her, her business is failing, her daughter is creeping her out, she can't cope with her situation at all, getting a part of the inheritance would at least help to save her from breaking down.
Maria: She believes in a witch in order to protect her fragile soul. She would help anyone if it were to prove the existence of witches.
Shannon: She seems to be too kind to really commit murder, but she is still imprisoned as a mere furniture.
Kanon: He wants to become human, which he can't while the Ushiromiya-system exists.
Nanjo: He has a sick grandchild, which seems to tie him somehow to his service to Kinzo.
Kumasawa: She always ponders on how useless and powerless she is, if she was given power maybe she would act.
Genji: We don't know more about him...all we know is that he would do anything Kinzo tells him to do.
Goda: He is new among the servants and least likely to be a part of it, but maybe just that makes him suspicious.

Spoiler for response:

Some of those motives are very shaky, really. Obviously, everyone has atleast one motive of "money".

Natsuhi: I don't think she despises most of the family like you have said. She obviously despises Eva, but I don't think she despises George, though I think she does hold some hatred for him. As for the rest, she certainly doesn't act like she hates them, and acts worried for them on many occasions.

Eva: The motive is fine, but how can you say George dissappoints her? The only thing she's truly disappointed about in him is that he loves Shannon, but otherwise, she's extremlly proud of him.

Hideyoshi: Once again, I think their family is doing fine. What makes you say it's falling apart?

Shannon: I doubt that motive could really hold ground with Shannon. Apprantly, servants from the orphanage Shannon and Kanon are from can leave after 3 years of service to the Ushiromiya house, however, Shannon hasn't.

Nanjo: What makes you think that ties him to Kinzo? Him and Kinzo are very good friends. Nanjo is one of the couple of people who Kinzo seemingly truly cares for their words, such as in Episode 2, when Nanjo almost got Kinzo to come down for dinner.

Kumasawa: Why would this be motive?

[Matrim]

This is a big spoiler, so read under your own discretion.

The question itself is already quite spoilerish and it was (as far as I can guess) caused by unmarked spoiler for ep.4, so can you continue in the ep.4 thread, please?

Natsuhi's possible motive is, in my opinion, her desire to see Jessica succeed Kinzo.

Spoiler for replies:

For the alibis, we learned by Episode 3 how easy it is to construct an alibi, especially when Beatrices 'Magic Firework' is involved.

I wouldn't call it easy or even a proper alibi, considering that Battler dismantled it in the end. It involved just Hideyoshi covering for Eva, nothing like ep1 and 2 where Natsuhi and Rosa are constantly in the midst of the main group of survivors.

Natsuhi's possible motive is, in my opinion, her desire to see Jessica succeed Kinzo. And since she is the heir presumptive for now, this motive is quite flimsy. Also, she would have had major problems defeating six people in ep.1, while unlike her Eva has is ruthless, has a very likely accomplice in the face of Hideyoshi and knowledge of martial arts.

As for Rosa, I have the nagging suspicion that she and Maria are faking their quarrels and are actually working together. I know this is a stretch but that's my hunch. There are some facts which might support it though - if Rosa can't stand witches that mcuh, why does she allow Maria to carry that notebook around? Sure, if it is taken away from her she would cry to no end but this problem doesn't seem to stop Rosa from slapping her time and again. Second, in ep.2 Kanon sees Maria and Rosa quarreling in the garden, Maria gets slapped, she cries, a lot of drama...and immediately afterwards she is totally fine and starts laughing creepily when Kanon announces his presence.

[chibidoro]

Im in need of some help!
I passed 3 episodes of Umineko, and I still dont get some things:

Spoiler for Umineko chess boards:

How many chess boards are there, we have the meta-world where m-Battler and Beatrice fight, but what about those scenes where we dont see Battler but we can see that Lambdadelta and Frederica are talking to him (the ??? tea party where we only saw Beatrice, LD and Frederica, Battler is there, but is never seen) is that also part of the meta world or is the meta-world part of the chess-board that Beatrice and battler are playing in that ???? hidden tea party room, cause I do remember Battler being full of charisma in the meta world at the end of episode 2, but then hiding under the table in the ???? room, and I do remember that Frederica said that Ange was her piece, and Ange appeared in the golden land in front of meta-battler, but I also remember that battler and Eva-beatrice fought in the ???? room?

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by chibidoro

Im in need of some help!
I passed 3 episodes of Umineko, and I still dont get some things:

Spoiler for Umineko chess boards:

How many chess boards are there, we have the meta-world where m-Battler and Beatrice fight, but what about those scenes where we dont see Battler but we can see that Lambdadelta and Frederica are talking to him (the ??? tea party where we only saw Beatrice, LD and Frederica, Battler is there, but is never seen) is that also part of the meta world or is the meta-world part of the chess-board that Beatrice and battler are playing in that ???? hidden tea party room, cause I do remember Battler being full of charisma in the meta world at the end of episode 2, but then hiding under the table in the ???? room, and I do remember that Frederica said that Ange was her piece, and Ange appeared in the golden land in front of meta-battler, but I also remember that battler and Eva-beatrice fought in the ???? room?

There's only one chessboard, the one Battler and Beatrice play with, that chessboard resets everytime another game starts. The tea parties are supposedly part of the meta-world, but they're more like....additions or omakes or epilogues, so you can see what happens after the game as over or behind the curtains of the game.

[chibidoro]

So, you are saying that the only chessboard is the one in the meta-world we see in the normal game, but do you have any explanation as to why

Spoiler for Umineko chess board:

Battlers character is never shown in the ??? room, or why Frederica and Lambdadelta never join the game even though Virgilia and Ronove are always near M-Battler and Beatrice?

And just so that I get it right the games are basically like this: Chess Game ( with some M-world interruptions) then the game ends, purgatorio (with M-B and Beatrice quarrels) and then they pull out the new board and a new game begins (the ??? is just some added part of the story when the chess game ends) + that in the third game Beatrice ended the game with her RED and then they went to that strange golden land and now a new game will start (even thought Frederica calls Ange her piece she exists in the same meta-world where Frederica does and does not join the actual game)
Is that okay?

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by chibidoro

So, you are saying that the only chessboard is the one in the meta-world we see in the normal game, but do you have any explanation as to why

Spoiler for Umineko chess board:

Battlers character is never shown in the ??? room, or why Frederica and Lambdadelta never join the game even though Virgilia and Ronove are always near M-Battler and Beatrice?

And just so that I get it right the games are basically like this: Chess Game ( with some M-world interruptions) then the game ends, purgatorio (with M-B and Beatrice quarrels) and then they pull out the new board and a new game begins (the ??? is just some added part of the story when the chess game ends) + that in the third game Beatrice ended the game with her RED and then they went to that strange golden land and now a new game will start (even thought Frederica calls Ange her piece she exists in the same meta-world where Frederica does and does not join the actual game)
Is that okay?

Well, why would Battler be in the room where stuff about how the game works is being discussed? It's a private conversation (supposedly). Frederica and Lambdadelta don't join because it's not their game to play, between them (Bern and Beato) they're playing a game to see whether Battler surrenders or not, but it's not the same chessboard as Beato and Battler.