[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[AuroraFlash]

By now I think that it's Obito and he might not believe in the Moon's Eye Plan either. He has already achieved what everyone else had failed to accomplish before. Tobi is the one who made the ninja world unite in a bond that's by now declared to be impossible to break again.

Even the fiercest enemies now believe in a united ninja world. This is something that could only be accomplished by declaring war to the whole ninja world, not just one country. They would have laughed at him. Obito declares war to the ninja world? That loser even compared to a non-Uchiha? No way! To make the ninja world unite and prepare for a real war, Madara's name was absolutely necessary.

The truth is, behind this mask there's more than the flesh and bones of a strong ninja, behind this mask there is an idea and ideas don't need names, it's the effect of an idea that matters.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

That still doesn't give us much, but Tobi's reaction is still ROFL up to now.

MY crazy theory is that Kishi is trolling us all. Tobi will really be Kishi, appearing in his own manga, aged to reflect him being from the future in which Naruto has already been finished, and he has enough money to buy a multidimensional time machine and plant himself in his own story.

Makes perfect sense, right?

[Lancelot of the Lake]

I'm thinking that he is Madara's failed clone that has imperfect body.

[Haak]

My friend has the greatest theory ever: Tobi...

Spoiler for shocking:

IS MADARA'S FATHER!!!!

*Dun-Dun-Dun*

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

MY crazy theory is that Kishi is trolling us all. Tobi will really be Kishi, appearing in his own manga, aged to reflect him being from the future in which Naruto has already been finished, and he has enough money to buy a multidimensional time machine and plant himself in his own story.

Makes perfect sense, right?

I see, perhaps in that future he didn't write enough NaruSasu so now he's...oh my God...

[Lunchman]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is Tobi? As last written in Naruto 564 when Naruto asks who Tobi really is- he answers, "You can call me by my old name, Tobi, if you prefer. The war has already begun...My name no longer matters. Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."

Before this chapter was released, I believed that Izuana, Madara's brother, came up with this plan after Madara was beaten by the 1st Hokage. It seemed likely because the whole entire Uchiha power stems from two brothers of equal power in order to gain the EMS. Hence, Tobi's interest in Sasuke and Itachi. It seemed that those two were somehow working together to create this Moon's Eye Plan and retain Uchiha's title as the most powerful clan by restoring the power of the Sage of the Six Paths.

In order to make an educated guess as to Tobi's true identity you have to take in to account a few factors of manga writing:
1. Always expect the unexpected - the author needs to shock the audience and develop a new arc that can be explored and tie together the whole Naruto story. Lets get serious if Tobi really is Obito or Izuana we would all be writing mangas and would be extremely disappointed with the author and the manga,
2. Audience must sympathize with the antagonist - even with Orochimaru, Pain, and Danzou the author portrayed those characters as trying to change the world for better albeit by force
3. Myths are realities - The story of the Sage of the Six Paths is perceived as a myth, but Tobi's Moon's Eye Plan clearly alludes to the fact that this unattainable power is possible
4. The antagonist is always a super-villain that somehow connects every plot twist and has been around since the beginning.

With that my assertion is, Tobi is an acronym detailing that he is really the third son of the Sage of the Six Paths. As we all know the Sage of the Six Paths split his power, eyes and body, between his two sons and split the 10 tails individually so no one could ever attain his power and rule the ninja world. If Tobi is the third son of the Sage of the Six Paths, this could blind-side audiences and give the author the ability to create a whole new arc and plot line twist. Think about it, you have 2 brothers essentially heirs to the throne of power in the Naruto world, and then you have a third brother that is given no power and is forgotten. He is not accounted for in the myth of the Six Paths- "HE IS NO ONE. HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE ANYONE"-, which develops resentment and hatred within Tobi. Tobi feels neglected by his father because he has no real inherit power and can never gain the acceptance and love from him that his brothers received. So Tobi, feels the only way to be recognized by his father is to become as strong/stronger than his own father.

Not only would this surprise all audiences and allow the author to create a new arc to continue for several chapters, it would explain the truth behind the myth of the Sage of the Six Paths. It would also explain Tobi's motive. As we all know from Sasuke's story, a common theme in these manga's is a young man trying to gain his father's attention and be recognized as his son. And what better way to gain your father's attention than surpassing him.

It would also explain Tobi's interest in both Sasuke and Naruto, with both of them being descendants of the Uchiha and Senju clan's which are the two clans created by the 2 sons of the Sage of the Six Paths. He must need them to be his sacrifices in order to gain the true power of the Six Paths. This paves the way for the final battle of Sasuke and Naruto teaming up against Tobi and defeating him while the Uchiha and Senju clans finally gain peace amongst each other and peace in the ninja world.

Yes, this might seem like a wild prediction but it would shock all of the fans, create the necessary sympathy/understanding of the villain, explain the story of the Sage of the Six Paths and the creation of the ninja world, and tie together the beginning of the Naruto world to the end result of a utopian ninja world.

[Akashin]

I'd like to think that if there were any third son we would have heard of him by now. It's not impossible (nothing is I suppose, until we know for sure who Tobi is), but it is highly (which really isn't strong enough in this case) unlikely. There isn't really much else to say on the idea (you have thought it out decently but it is, at its core, centered on something that has absolutely no grounding in canon up to this point), but I did feel the need to reply to this:

Originally Posted by Lunchman

In order to make an educated guess as to Tobi's true identity you have to take in to account a few factors of manga writing:
1. Always expect the unexpected - the author needs to shock the audience and develop a new arc that can be explored and tie together the whole Naruto story. Lets get serious if Tobi really is Obito or Izuana we would all be writing mangas and would be extremely disappointed with the author and the manga,
2. Audience must sympathize with the antagonist - even with Orochimaru, Pain, and Danzou the author portrayed those characters as trying to change the world for better albeit by force
3. Myths are realities - The story of the Sage of the Six Paths is perceived as a myth, but Tobi's Moon's Eye Plan clearly alludes to the fact that this unattainable power is possible
4. The antagonist is always a super-villain that somehow connects every plot twist and has been around since the beginning.

I'm mostly ambivalent towards the fourth point, as I don't agree that antagonists need to follow any strict formula whatsoever, and I agree with your third point (we already pretty much know that the story of the Sage of the Six Paths was more or less true). Your first point is a mixed bag, since while Obito or Izuna wouldn't shock or surprise me (the Sage of the Six Paths is about the only person I can think of that would), I wouldn't be disappointed by them any more than I would anybody else--which is to say I would be happy with anybody, so long as they make a good antagonist. I give the Obito theory some flack because I can't easily see how he could make a good antagonist, but if he were to be a good antagonist I would have no problem with that.

Your second point, though... I utterly disagree that an antagonist needs to be somebody you can sympathize with. Why does that have to be the case? They stand in direct opposition to who you're actually supposed to sympathize with, after all; it's all well and good if the antagonist is somebody you can sympathize with and I don't dislike it, but neither do I feel that has to be the case. As I said, there shouldn't be any strict formula to writing an antagonist; so long as they're compelling, I could care less if they're somebody Naruto would seriously hesitate to kill or such an utter monster that Naruto struggles to resist the urge to rip their spine out.

While I'm at it, in what world is Orochimaru somebody we were meant to sympathize with in any way? Pain and Danzou I agree with (though in the case of Danzou, no amount of good intentions will make me like him), but I can't recall Orochimaru ever being somebody remotely sympathetic.

[KnightOfTwo]

Originally Posted by Akashin

While I'm at it, in what world is Orochimaru somebody we were meant to sympathize with in any way? Pain and Danzou I agree with (though in the case of Danzou, no amount of good intentions will make me like him), but I can't recall Orochimaru ever being somebody remotely sympathetic.

I wouldn't say he was so much sympathetic as he was easy to understand, at least in regards to his motives. He was always straight forward with what it was that he made him do what he did, he wanted knowledge. He was as selfish as could be, he wanted all for himself and did so not caring about what he had to do in order to succeed. He wasn't sympathetic, in fact, he was portrayed (imo) as the most truly evil character in the whole series, which is why I adore him.

Effectively, we could understand the motivations behind these characters and what they wanted. Tobi is different in that we know his (stated) objective, but barely know anything about his motives. That is because the character is still so shrouded in mystery, we don't have a proper grasp on his personality. He is too enigmatic to make sense of.

He seems to want to complete his plan to bring peace to the world, but one has to wonder why? With Pain, it was because of all he had seen and endured and Danzou was effectively the same way. Orochimaru wanted Konoha's destruction because he felt slighted for not being made Hokage. Tobi wants to bring peace to the world because.......he is a misanthrope?

As for who he is, I am under the impression he is the Sage of the Six Paths. He has such a miserable outlook on the world because he is regarded as the father of Ninja. He has seen what his techniques and teachings have caused. Countless wars and violence. He knows as much as he does about the Sharingan and the Rinnegan because they are from bloodlines of his. Which would also explain how he "gave" Nagato his Rinnegan, because they started with him. He "isn't anyone and doesn't want to be anyone" because he is seen as a myth. Most don't regard him as real and so he is effectively no one. He doesn't want to be anyone because he already was someone and saw what happened as a result. He knows so much about the tailed beasts because he made them (or sealed them, in the ten-tails case).

Either that, or he is Pakkun in a mecha suit

[Lunchman]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I'd like to think that if there were any third son we would have heard of him by now. It's not impossible (nothing is I suppose, until we know for sure who Tobi is), but it is highly (which really isn't strong enough in this case) unlikely. There isn't really much else to say on the idea (you have thought it out decently but it is, at its core, centered on something that has absolutely no grounding in canon up to this point), but I did feel the need to reply to this:



I'm mostly ambivalent towards the fourth point, as I don't agree that antagonists need to follow any strict formula whatsoever, and I agree with your third point (we already pretty much know that the story of the Sage of the Six Paths was more or less true). Your first point is a mixed bag, since while Obito or Izuna wouldn't shock or surprise me (the Sage of the Six Paths is about the only person I can think of that would), I wouldn't be disappointed by them any more than I would anybody else--which is to say I would be happy with anybody, so long as they make a good antagonist. I give the Obito theory some flack because I can't easily see how he could make a good antagonist, but if he were to be a good antagonist I would have no problem with that.

Your second point, though... I utterly disagree that an antagonist needs to be somebody you can sympathize with. Why does that have to be the case? They stand in direct opposition to who you're actually supposed to sympathize with, after all; it's all well and good if the antagonist is somebody you can sympathize with and I don't dislike it, but neither do I feel that has to be the case. As I said, there shouldn't be any strict formula to writing an antagonist; so long as they're compelling, I could care less if they're somebody Naruto would seriously hesitate to kill or such an utter monster that Naruto struggles to resist the urge to rip their spine out.

While I'm at it, in what world is Orochimaru somebody we were meant to sympathize with in any way? Pain and Danzou I agree with (though in the case of Danzou, no amount of good intentions will make me like him), but I can't recall Orochimaru ever being somebody remotely sympathetic.

How can you say that we know the truth about the Sage of the Six Paths? The story has only been recounted, by the very perpetrator that has instigated this war. Granted all of us are speculating on the true identity of Tobi; there is no substance for any theories because not enough of the story and Tobi has been revealed to the audience. We are given bits of information to draw conclusions and entice us, as readers, to continue to follow the story. With that, the true identity of Tobi has to come as a shock to all. This is not a game of CLUE, with Tobi being Obito in Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Kishi hasn't developed this great story just to end it on a bad/predictable note. He has to create a whole entire Tobi arc that ties together the origins of the ninja world with modern day Naruto. There are too many loose ends that he wouldn't tie together if he made it some character that has already been introduced or talked about.

With that, Tobi is the antithesis of Naruto and based on the dialogue both share similar motives of peace whether or not they be deemed good or bad. This is what makes an antagonist compelling, they are the polar opposite of the main character. It gives the reader the ability to see both sides of the argument (a central theme) but ultimately persuading the reader to agree with the main character. This is what creates a great story not some mystery man working behind the scenes.

As for readers not sympathizing with Orochimaru I disagree. If you recall, Orochimaru longed to create a resurrection jutsu to bring back his dead parents even though he lost his way in his journey. Who wouldn't sympathize or at the very least empathize with a character that longs to bring back their family?

Sounds like you have some familial issues to work on fanboy, but hey thanks for the reply and the brilliant deduction Dr. Holmes.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Lunchman

How can you say that we know the truth about the Sage of the Six Paths? The story has only been recounted, by the very perpetrator that has instigated this war. Granted all of us are speculating on the true identity of Tobi; there is no substance for any theories because not enough of the story and Tobi has been revealed to the audience. We are given bits of information to draw conclusions and entice us, as readers, to continue to follow the story. With that, the true identity of Tobi has to come as a shock to all. This is not a game of CLUE, with Tobi being Obito in Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Kishi hasn't developed this great story just to end it on a bad/predictable note. He has to create a whole entire Tobi arc that ties together the origins of the ninja world with modern day Naruto. There are too many loose ends that he wouldn't tie together if he made it some character that has already been introduced or talked about.

I never said that we know the truth about the Sage of the Six Paths; all I said was that the story we know of him (or at least parts of it) has been shown to be true, particularly the Rinnegan and the Juubi. All of that aside, I don't disagree with anything else you said here, nor do I believe I said anything to suggest I did.

With that, Tobi is the antithesis of Naruto and based on the dialogue both share similar motives of peace whether or not they be deemed good or bad. This is what makes an antagonist compelling, they are the polar opposite of the main character. It gives the reader the ability to see both sides of the argument (a central theme) but ultimately persuading the reader to agree with the main character. This is what creates a great story not some mystery man working behind the scenes.

Tobi doesn't need to be an antithesis to Naruto personally (as Nagato largely was) for their ideals to violently clash, but that nitpicking aside I mostly agree. All I was really arguing was that Tobi doesn't necessarily need to be somebody we can sympathize with.

As for readers not sympathizing with Orochimaru I disagree. If you recall, Orochimaru longed to create a resurrection jutsu to bring back his dead parents even though he lost his way in his journey. Who wouldn't sympathize or at the very least empathize with a character that longs to bring back their family?

I actually hadn't remembered that, so I'll agree that his reasons for using the Edo Tensei were, at their core, somewhat sympathetic. That said, I was referring more to the fact that his character as a whole isn't somebody you can really sympathize with; as KnightOfTwo said, the Orochimaru that featured prominently throughout the story was selfish and power-hungry, and generally the most evil antagonist there was (or at least the one with the fewest redeeming factors).

Sounds like you have some familial issues to work on fanboy, but hey thanks for the reply and the brilliant deduction Dr. Holmes.

Not sure what I said that brought you to this conclusion (unless I came off as far more antagonistic than I intended to), but you're welcome.

[yellowkaiq]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I don't think Kishimoto is the kind of person to bring back someone from a Gaiden chapter...I doubt it's Obito.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by yellowkaiq

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I don't think Kishimoto is the kind of person to bring back someone from a Gaiden chapter...I doubt it's Obito.

i dont get it...is a Gaiden chapter/character not canon?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i dont get it...is a Gaiden chapter/character not canon?

Given that he appeared in the manga, Obito is indeed canon. Yellowkaiq's point, I think, was that Obito is a character that existed solely to flesh out Kakashi's character and has absolutely zero relevance (that we know of) to the rest of the plot. Whether you take that to mean Tobi being Obito is impossible or not is up to you, I guess.

[itachi-san314]

not sure what a 'gaiden chapter' even means. its all canon and part of the story. it was just a brief event that happened in the past. also note the timeliness of it that I'm sure has been brought up 1,000 times. it came out right before we were introduced to tobi which is suspicious in my opinion. (also the near anagram between names) if its not obito, we were at least meant to think about the possibility of tobi being him

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

not sure what a 'gaiden chapter' even means. its all canon and part of the story. it was just a brief event that happened in the past. also note the timeliness of it that I'm sure has been brought up 1,000 times. it came out right before we were introduced to tobi which is suspicious in my opinion. (also the near anagram between names) if its not obito, we were at least meant to think about the possibility of tobi being him

Gaiden just means side-story; specifically, that mini-arc was called the Kakashi Gaiden, if I recall.

As for the timeliness, I hadn't ever really thought of that. It's possible evidence I suppose, though I hesitate to say that it on its own is nearly enough evidence. And while we may have initially been made to think of the possibility of Tobi being Obito, I'd like to think that was shot once we were told he was Madara, and spent the next long while believing exactly that (storyline-wise I mean). I don't really think that evidence would still hold much weight after that.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Gaiden just means side-story; specifically, that mini-arc was called the Kakashi Gaiden, if I recall.

I know. That was a sarcasm fail. I just meant I wouldn't separate it from the story by calling it a 'gaiden chapter' like it was an OAV or something. I didn't word my reaction to it very well.

As for the timeliness, I hadn't ever really thought of that. It's possible evidence I suppose, though I hesitate to say that it on its own is nearly enough evidence. And while we may have initially been made to think of the possibility of Tobi being Obito, I'd like to think that was shot once we were told he was Madara, and spent the next long while believing exactly that (storyline-wise I mean). I don't really think that evidence would still hold much weight after that.

I'm an Obito believer lol. at least until definitely proven wrong by kishi. but yea, this is all circumstantial evidence and I wouldn't give much credence to it. I do find the timeliness interesting though. I'm much more inclined to believe it based on the placement of eyes and tobi's apparently damaged body. to qualify this, i believe it's madara's spirit as well and obito is either one of his personalities or completely surpressed. it's farfetched, but still on par with other oddities in the story. I guess the only thing i think i can say for sure is that kishi intended it to be a possibility which is what i disagreed with from yellowkaiq's post

[White Silver King]

By now I think that it's Obito and he might not believe in the Moon's Eye Plan either. He has already achieved what everyone else had failed to accomplish before. Tobi is the one who made the ninja world unite in a bond that's by now declared to be impossible to break again.

Even the fiercest enemies now believe in a united ninja world. This is something that could only be accomplished by declaring war to the whole ninja world, not just one country. They would have laughed at him. Obito declares war to the ninja world? That loser even compared to a non-Uchiha? No way! To make the ninja world unite and prepare for a real war, Madara's name was absolutely necessary.

The truth is, behind this mask there's more than the flesh and bones of a strong ninja, behind this mask there is an idea and ideas don't need names, it's the effect of an idea that matters.

Oh. My. God. I can totally see that happening.





Eugh...

[itachi-san314]

another couple thoughts occured to me about the whole 'obito was dead from the boulder' argument against tobi being madara using obito's body. sorry if these were mentioned already. I don't think both were though

for one, when tobi fought fuu and torune, he ripped his own arm off after he was poisoned by the microscopic beetles revealing that his right arm was essentially fabricated and easily replaceable. same side that obito was crushed.

also, edo madara revealed that he developed rinnegan before he died. this means he had control over life and death so obito dying would have meant nothing at that time. he could have easily brought him back to life or did whatever he needed to do to keep his spirit alive inside his body

and then there's the 'why choose obito' argument. obito had a lot of natural potential. its evident in the fact that kakashi's eye was able to become MS. he was just weak hearted so his development was slow, until he got set straight in the gaiden chapters. I would venture to say that someone familiar with the MS like madara would have kept obito on his radar.

i'm very curious to know what madara was doing after his fight with the first hokage and before he died, because if this theory proves true then that means that he basically died of old age by the time he would have wanted to preserve his life inside of obito's vessel.

[RockGuitarDude]

I don't think that Tobi is Obito but it makes me wonder now that Kakashi & Gai have joined the fight.

It is possible that Kakashi is needed from a storytelling perspective to identify Obito. Naruto and Bee don't know what Obito looks like so it would take Tobi saying "I AM OBITO" to reveal who he is if Kakashi wasn't there.

That assumes that we're about to find out who Tobi is of course.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by RockGuitarDude

I don't think that Tobi is Obito but it makes me wonder now that Kakashi & Gai have joined the fight.

It is possible that Kakashi is needed from a storytelling perspective to identify Obito. Naruto and Bee don't know what Obito looks like so it would take Tobi saying "I AM OBITO" to reveal who he is if Kakashi wasn't there.

That assumes that we're about to find out who Tobi is of course.

yes! this is exactly what I thought. when kakashi just came out of nowhere it was pretty apparent to me that this will happen. it's like gai being on the ship with naruto (when he has never been on a team with him in the canon story at least) that just so happened to be sailing into a fight with kisame who just so happened to be gai's second biggest rival in the story (and only enemy rival). very very convenient indeed